Driving In Snow

[wwest]

I would more willingly trust a RWD car, or an AWD or 4WD with DEFINITE rear torque bias, on a slippery roadbed surface than ANY FWD or front torque biased AWD.

The new 4runner automatically REMOVES engine torque, leading or lagging, from the front during stearing. The new GS & IS AWD vehicles use the VSC's yaw sensor signal to automatically divert most engine torque to the rear if lateral traction becomes more desireable than front "drive" traction.

Get the "message"..??

[dcfish]

I would more willingly trust a RWD car, or an AWD or 4WD with DEFINITE rear torque bias, on a slippery roadbed surface than ANY FWD or front torque biased AWD.

The new 4runner automatically REMOVES engine torque, leading or lagging, from the front during stearing. The new GS & IS AWD vehicles use the VSC's yaw sensor signal to automatically divert most engine torque to the rear if lateral traction becomes more desireable than front "drive" traction.

Get the "message"..??

←

Exactly, Rear drive is the way to go.

[ArmyofOne]

I would more willingly trust a RWD car, or an AWD or 4WD with DEFINITE rear torque bias, on a slippery roadbed surface than ANY FWD or front torque biased AWD.

The new 4runner automatically REMOVES engine torque, leading or lagging, from the front during stearing. The new GS & IS AWD vehicles use the VSC's yaw sensor signal to automatically divert most engine torque to the rear if lateral traction becomes more desireable than front "drive" traction.

Get the "message"..??

←

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "Get the message" but if you directed it at me, i dont much appreciate it, there is no message to be gotten <_< . FWD, according to many experts (myeslef included, yes i consider myself an expert since i have driven hundreds (i dont even know how many, too many to count) of different cars in all kinds of weather conditions and i prefere FWD over RWD, but i would take a 4x4 over a FWD simply because its better to have 4 wheels driving than only 2, 4x is only good if it is 50front/50rear like a subaru system, or more rear than front biased, such as the system on the porsche cayenne.

but, there is no possible way you can make me believe that in any kind of slippery situation, a FWD is worse than a RWD. ESPECIALLY a FWD with a stick. Weight is a factor here too, remember. the lighter you are in ice, the harder it is to get around, my car weighs half (or less) of what the lightest ES weighs. (2,200 lbs with me in it) and dont even go there with the LS, it will be easier to stop, but alot harder to get going (the LS will) because the wight at the frint helps it stop, but there isnt as much weight int he rear to help it grip to go.

If i lower my tire pressure to 20 psi, in deep snow, im virtually unstoppable, my coworker has a wrx, and we go plaing int he power in parking lots from time to time, i can go everywhere he can go with little/no problem.

and if you have a problem turning, theres an ebrake there. lock up the rear, and you will turn. seriously though, if you let off the gas and let the car coast, ti will grip.

the problem with alot of people in any car are the following misnomers:

-I have 4x4, i cant get stuck...WRONG. 4x4 can get stuck just as easily, if not easier than my FWD.

-Driving on ice is no worse than driving in the rain. WRONG AGAIN: When you are doing 45 and you see a redlight 50 feen in front of you, in the rain, you can stop, on ice, you will slide through the red light...at 50 MPH with all 4 wheels locked if no ABS, and then you could feasibly continue sliding that same speed with almost no decrease for a hundred yards or so. just depends ont he conditions.

[lenore]

I agree with armyof1 FWD is superior, You can power out of a skid and the load is above the wheels. Provides easier response to sliding and better traction.

[Lexusfreak]

My, this is almost getting like an oil or filter debate lol.

[lenore]

Well if you own a rwd car then there is no debate, just get good tires. If you own fwd, again buy good tires and know the limitations of both systems.

[nc211]

Guys...I've got the undisputable answer to this question.... Move south! Hey, the weather is here, wish you were beautiful!

Lexusfreak....Mobile 1 full synthetic is number 1...I'm right...you're wrong! :P Hahahaa. JUST PLAYIN'!! ;) God, we don't need that conversation...again.

[ZINFANDEL22]

My, this is almost getting like an oil or filter debate lol.   

 

←

looking back at first question I see he asking about snow tires. He also sates its his first winter I think thats the real issue here. Driving in snow is an art why do you think they close down towns when the chance of snow is there?People cant drive in snow unless they do it all the time. So please get yourself some snow tires and take it very very slow.

[blake918]

Guys...I've got the undisputable answer to this question.... Move south! Hey, the weather is here, wish you were beautiful!

←

LOL Jimmy Buffett I could live at his Margaritaville in Jamaca! B) I don't know if moving south is a sure shot, last December we had snow in New Orleans, not much though! :o Our wonderful State Police department's solution was to shut every major interstate and hwy down, and with a city that's divided by a river, a lot of people got screwed.

[SW03ES]

Your crazy unless you got that backwards, FWD in the snow is superior in EVERY WAY to RWD.  why?

you have the option to STEER for one.  if you dont have good traction in one place you can move sideways to another spot.

2 friends of mine have a blazer and jeep grand cherokee, both 4x4, both have more trouble in the snow than my escort.

if you know hwo to drive a FWD, some of them handle better than corvettes (in summer conditions) and than subarus in winter conditions.  mine is pinned to the ground, even with the falkens. I lived in Anchorage Alaska for 18 years, my family had all kinds of cars, i gauruntee they saw more snow than anywhere else in the US most of the time, and to make it worse, no salt was ever used (they dont use it there, because people know how to drive).  we had an 86 chevy astro that was RWD, that thing was horrible, even with snow tires.  didnt get around well at all.  we had an old impala (comparable in weight to the LS) and with snow tires it sucked too.  my dads dodge dakota 4x4 did...ok...just ok.  but my contour, I never got stuck.  ever. I drove that car in alaska for 2 years, never got stuck, my dad had it before be for about 5years, and never got it stuck either.

I havent been stuck yet in the escort.

←

Army, you're off base on this one. If you know how to drive RWD is more predictable and controllable to drive in the snow, once you get it moving. FWD has the benefit of it being easier to get up to speed, but thats where the benefit ends. Being that the power goes to the steering wheels in a FWD car you have less control when trying to make course changes, and its impossible to steer a FWD car with the throttle unlike a RWD car. For most drivers, FWD is an easier setup to drive in the snow, but RWD with snow tires is a better choice than FWD.

As for FWD cars handling better than Corvettes...I don't even know what to say to that...except to suggest that you say that to someone experienced at driving cars on handling tracks and he'll laugh right in your face.

I know you like your Escort, but FWD is not an ideal powertrain for vehicle dynamics by any stretch of the imagination. Carmakers build FWD because its cheaper and can be more predictable for average skilled or lower skilled drivers.

Why do you think every sports car on earth is either RWD or rear biased AWD? Why do you think every race vehicle is RWD, INCLUDING rally and winter racers? Why do you think all the serious performance sedans are RWD? RWD is a much better powertrain.

[wwest]

"power out of a skid..."

Since when do FWD cars skid? They are prone to "plow" not skid.

And yes, there are exceptions to the above "rule".

"virtually unstopable..."

Exactly, especially while maintaining directional control.

And finally...

ABS is NOT there to help you stop, or reduce your stopping distance!

Exactly the opposite, it typically elongates your stopping distance by preventing some level of braking in favor of maintaining lateral control of the vehicle.

If you don't chose to believe me on this then read the section on ABS in any current owners manual.

[VBdenny]

The way I see it is that with a rear wheel drive vehicle you can control the actions of both the front and rear tires. On a FWD car you sure can get going better, no doubt, you just do not have as much control as RWD cars. Of course AWD is the best way to go.

A note on snowtires, true snow tires use gradual compounds in the tires. The first half of the tread is a silicon based tread which gives way to an all season tread during the deeper part of the tread. The other important consideration is the rating. Many snow tires have a "Q" rating which supports a maximum sustained speed of 99mph. Other snow tires carry higher speed ratings.

Someone made the comment that the only good car in snow was the Corvair and VW bug. I drove both extensively in the snow. Man, they do go off the line but you could not TURN them in the snow. Talk about a car that plowed! AT least you and a buddy could easily push them down off the snowbanks. Before all this reckless driving crap came out for sliding around in snow we use to have a blast. Out evening entertainment in high school was to go out "sliding around."

[dcfish]

The way I see it is that with a rear wheel drive vehicle you can control the actions of both the front and rear tires.  On a FWD car you sure can get going better, no doubt, you just do not have as much control as RWD cars.  Of course AWD is the best way to go.

A note on snowtires, true snow tires use gradual compounds in the tires.  The first half of the tread is a silicon based tread which gives way to an all season tread during the deeper part of the tread.  The other important consideration is the rating.  Many snow tires have a "Q" rating which supports a maximum sustained speed of 99mph.  Other snow tires carry higher speed ratings.

Someone made the comment that the only good car in snow was the Corvair and VW bug.  I drove both extensively in the snow.  Man, they do go off the line but you could not TURN them in the snow.  Talk about a car that plowed!  AT least you and a buddy could easily push them down off the snowbanks.  Before all this reckless driving crap came out for sliding around in snow we use to have a blast.  Out evening entertainment in high school was to go out "sliding around."

←

Talking about 'sliding around' As a kid we used to take vw's on the river when it froze over and talk about spinning, It was like 360's and sideway slides for what seemed to be a city block, Now that was winter driving. YEHAAA!!!

[wwest]

The way I see it is that with a rear wheel drive vehicle you can control the actions of both the front and rear tires.  On a FWD car you sure can get going better, no doubt, you just do not have as much control as RWD cars.  Of course AWD is the best way to go.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Many, if not most, AWD vehicles are really natively FWD and only become partially RWD once the front developes some level of wheelspin/slip.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A note on snowtires, true snow tires use gradual compounds in the tires.  The first half of the tread is a silicon based tread which gives way to an all season tread during the deeper part of the tread.  The other important consideration is the rating.  Many snow tires have a "Q" rating which supports a maximum sustained speed of 99mph.  Other snow tires carry higher speed ratings.

Someone made the comment that the only good car in snow was the Corvair and VW bug.  I drove both extensively in the snow.  Man, they do go off the line but you could not TURN them in the snow.  Talk about a car that plowed!  AT least you and a buddy could easily push them down off the snowbanks.  Before all this reckless driving crap came out for sliding around in snow we use to have a blast.  Out evening entertainment in high school was to go out "sliding around."

←

I have a 78 911 Targa that insofar as the VW or Corvair handling dynamics is very much their equal. But it never gets to go out and play in the snow.

[nc211]

Guys, we really sort of hijacked apezam's thread here. But I've gotta chime in just one more time. A fwd car can slide in the snow...with the aide of the e-brake as army mentioned. I used to steer with my e-brake on my 87 VW GTI back in high school in Kansas...better known as a "J" turn. I think it really comes down to personal prefference, and personal comfort on which one you like best in the snow. Me? I'm not completely comfortable with my LS on slick roads like that, something about the momemtum of the car being "pushed" rather than being "pulled" like with fwd. I'm not very comfortable with the risk of the tail end coming around on me so easily. But, the couple of times it's been in the snow with me, it did fine, and on normal Mich tires. The best snow buggie I've ever driven however was my 99 Subaru Outback. I remember back in 2000 down in Wilmington we got 8 inches of snow. That car was increadible! You could NOT make it spin sideways, I don't care how hard you tried either, it just wouldn't, and it wouldn't get stuck at all. But beside the point. FWD or RWD, both will plow if not driven correctly, both can slide "one with the gas pedal, one with the e-brake" and BOTH can get stuck. For Apezam's original question, I hope we've answered what you need "snow tires". I would have some chains in the trunk though, just in case, and some sand bags too for a couple reasons. 1) give you more weight back there and 2) if you do get stuck, you can sacrafice one of the bags of sand, throw it on the snow and help you get a little bit better traction.

fwd or rwd...it's all in the hands of the driver. Me personally? I agree with Army in that fwd is better for snow. Simply because of the "pull" factor and reduced risk of fishtailing into someone else. Knowing my luck, it would probably be Raz's new Mercedes!

NC211, signing off on this topic. B)

[SW03ES]

fwd or rwd...it's all in the hands of the driver. Me personally? I agree with Army in that fwd is better for snow. Simply because of the "pull" factor and reduced risk of fishtailing into someone else. Knowing my luck, it would probably be Raz's new Mercedes!

←

And I think you're right, I think that for an average driver a FWD car is a better choice than a RWD car (assuming niether have snow tires) for use in the snow simply because its easier to get moving from a stop and can be more predictable.

I still would take RWD with snow tires over FWD though.

Any assertion that FWD is as good or better a drivetrain than RWD when it comes to driving dynamics is total lunacy though.

Interesring how it is though, I feel uneasy being "pulled" and it feels much more natural to be "pushed". I wish the ES were RWD.

[dfkd]

It's just like the first second of a drag race. Not enough traction to the rear wheel and it will invariably side to one side or the other.

FWD is just good because if the front slides like that you notice before it's too late.

Better tires is all you can do. The extra weight if you use sandbags will help you to dig in to start moving BUT you have to remember that more weight at the back gives the car a higher tendency to fishtail once you're moving. Bit of a tradeoff.

Tires is your best chance....or AWD.

[SW03ES]

Really what makes FWD effective at getting moving is more the fact that the engine is over the front wheels providing more weight moreso than the fact that the drivewheels are in the front.

As for the loss of traction being easily recognizable in a FWD vehicle, I disagree. Go out to a parking lot in a FWD car, and turn in at a higher than you normally would rate of speed. The front end will plow, braking will just make it worse as does throttle, and you have no steering control at all. In short, nothing to do but back off the gas and hope it comes back into line.

Do the same thing in a RWD car and you'll still plow, although less. BUT you can steer through it using the throttle. Since the drive wheels and the steering wheels are seperate, you can still steer too.

Which scenario would you rather be in?

[Lexusfreak]

Guys...I've got the undisputable answer to this question.... Move south! Hey, the weather is here, wish you were beautiful!

Lexusfreak....Mobile 1 full synthetic is number 1...I'm right...you're wrong!  :P Hahahaa. JUST PLAYIN'!!  ;) God, we don't need that conversation...again.

←

lol nc...no we don't need that conversation again :whistles: ;)

I though have the undisputable answer to the FWD & RWD issue........everyone that lives where there is alot of snow in the winter......buy a Subaru! :D :whistles:

[bartkat]

I lived in the snow belt for 15 years, and the only two cars that I ever totally spun out were FWD.

[lenore]

I will tell you on ice and snow FWD is superior to rwd. The control is better. Yes you can control your rwd, but that is with lots of experience. Fwd requires far less expertise to drive safely on wet or snowy roads. AWD is supreme.

[bartkat]

I disagree.

[dcfish]

I disagree.

←

This thead is turning into one of those oil, filter type of discussions. Where's Monarch?

[Lexusfreak]

I disagree.

←

This thead is turning into one of those oil, filter type of discussions. Where's Monarch?

←

lol. :whistles:

[ArmyofOne]

As for the loss of traction being easily recognizable in a FWD vehicle, I disagree. Go out to a parking lot in a FWD car, and turn in at a higher than you normally would rate of speed. The front end will plow, braking will just make it worse as does throttle, and you have no steering control at all. In short, nothing to do but back off the gas and hope it comes back into line.

←

In dry conditions, thats a big negative, yeah you will have understeer, but with a FWD, all you have to do is let off the gas and DONT TOUCH THE BRAKE and she weill slow down enough to regain grip. In snow and ice, through the parking brake, the !Removed! end will slide around and if you are doing any decent speed (witha handbrake) you can control wthe amount of skid by how far up you pull the handle, then once she is sliding sideways, turn into the skid and apply the gas, and she will pull right out, straight and true. i do it regularly, sometimes on purpose, sometimes not. Apply throttle in a RWD car (too much of it anyways) and she wont power out of the skid, but rather into it and you could be looking at the headlights of the cars behind you in a matter of seconds if you are not extremely careful.

the other key to driving in snow is DO NOT MASH THE GAS. once your wheels break traction, its hard to get it back, and pushing the pedal down more, only makes the wheels spin faster, it doesnt help you get going quicker.

As for FWD cars handling better than Corvettes...I don't even know what to say to that...except to suggest that you say that to someone experienced at driving cars on handling tracks and he'll laugh right in your face.

No he wont, you ever seen a civic (modified of course) take a autocross track, some of those turns are taken at over 90 MPH in the mdoded cars. i never said my car can do that, thast ludicris, but some modded FWD's will handle bette than a stock corvette. but you are right, ultimately, when both are modde or when both are stock, RWD will prevail in almost all departments of performance.