Curious P Posted March 8, 2007 Posted March 8, 2007 Hey there guys (and girls!), I'm trying to decide between buying a new 2007 ES 350 or an older model (2002 or 2003) LS 430. I was originally going to go in and order myself a new ES, but after reading aobut the LS here (I went through every LS 430 post over the last 2 years! Great info!) I'm now also seriously considering it. Pros/Cons for each: 2007 ES 350 PRO: New car = new car warranty, built to my specifications (colour & options), new car smell CON: There seems to be a problem with the tranny in the new ES's, not as smooth or refined and with fewer options, $$$ (would cost about $6K more) 02-03 LS 430 PRO: Very smooth refined, quality build, great reliability history, $$$ (save $6K) CON: Not the exact colour combo I'm looking for, not a huge fan of the body styling, concerned about how it has been maintained and future repair bills. I generally keep my cars for 5+ years (my last car, an STS, I kept for 10 yr and 150K miles!) and I want a car that I can depend on. What would you choose? Oh, and if you pick the LS, would you go for a 92 with 20K miles for $29 K or a 93 with 52K miles for $27K? Thanks for all the help - this forum is a great asset!
sv7887 Posted March 8, 2007 Posted March 8, 2007 Curious, The LS is hard to beat. I just sold my 1992 LS and tried to replace it with a MB E350. It is very hard to find a car that can replicate the LS experience. The ES comes close, but not quite. You have the option of getting a CPO LS430. That will provide you with some warranty coverage. The market ought to be flooded with LS430 trades since the LS460 is out. I'd always take the car with lower miles. That premium is worth it. Keep in mind the 30K service will set you back $600 or so. We had 4 LS400's and LS430's and they were excellent. I find that they provide a unique experience that cannot be easily put into words. I'll give it a shot: I don't think there is a car out there that rides so competently or silently as the LS series. Together with unbeatable build quality and a great array of features this car will not only give you a peace of mind it will give you something to look forward to every day. A Lexus isn't just a car, it's a relationship. Even until the end, my 1992 LS never stranded me. I always sat in my Lexus not worrying whether the car would start. In contrast it wouldn't surprise me if my dad's S430 or my E350 had issues. I think that's the biggest difference. This is a great board and there are tons of knowledgeable posters here to help you during and after your shopping experience! -Sam Hey there guys (and girls!), I'm trying to decide between buying a new 2007 ES 350 or an older model (2002 or 2003) LS 430. I was originally going to go in and order myself a new ES, but after reading aobut the LS here (I went through every LS 430 post over the last 2 years! Great info!) I'm now also seriously considering it. Pros/Cons for each: 2007 ES 350 PRO: New car = new car warranty, built to my specifications (colour & options), new car smell CON: There seems to be a problem with the tranny in the new ES's, not as smooth or refined and with fewer options, $$$ (would cost about $6K more) 02-03 LS 430 PRO: Very smooth refined, quality build, great reliability history, $$$ (save $6K) CON: Not the exact colour combo I'm looking for, not a huge fan of the body styling, concerned about how it has been maintained and future repair bills. I generally keep my cars for 5+ years (my last car, an STS, I kept for 10 yr and 150K miles!) and I want a car that I can depend on. What would you choose? Oh, and if you pick the LS, would you go for a 92 with 20K miles for $29 K or a 93 with 52K miles for $27K? Thanks for all the help - this forum is a great asset!
SW03ES Posted March 8, 2007 Posted March 8, 2007 Tough choice, I faced the very same choice in 03 when I was shopping, back then it was 99 to 00 LS vs new ES300. The pros for the ES were that it was new (HUGE pro for me, I hate used cars), ithad a far more useful navigation system (DVD vs hard drive system), and it was leasable (I own a business and the used car leases just don't work out). I'm extremely happy with my ES but every once and a while I think I should have gone the LS route, even though now a 99-00 would be starting to get outdated. When comparing an 02-03 LS430 to an ES350 I would take the ES350. The ES is much more spartan inside (I hate the new interior, huge let down and step down from the very classy and expensive feeling interior on my ES), but it is far better looking than the 01-03 LS which is ugly IMHO. Now, if you're looking at an 04+ thats a different story. They made some extremely meaningful changes in 04 to the styling and the equipment on the car (6 speed transmision etc) that are quite attractive. I could make a better case for an 04-06 over a new ES350, but my guess is for me the new car would always win out. Another thing to think about is that while the ES is well built, its not AS well built as an LS, especially the 350. The ES for me is just a stepping stone, and I've already made the decision to replace it, or at least add to it, with an LS460 in August or September. Nothing takes miles like an LS, and it will be a nicer car at 10 years old than an ES will.
1990LS400 Posted March 9, 2007 Posted March 9, 2007 For less than the price of an ES350, you could probably have a very nice low mileage 04 LS430 instead of an 02 or 03 LS430. Have you been seriously looking? I don't understand the concept of choosing between an ES350 and an LS430. An ES and an LS don't "feel" the same at all. The rear wheel drive GS and LS are a lot more similar. Either you prefer an ES or you prefer an LS. They aren't interchangeable. An LS430 will likely cost you quite a bit more to operate than an ES350 and not just in fuel costs. For example, even in Toronto you could probably get buy without snow tires on a front wheel drive ES. But on an LS430, four snow tires and an extra set of wheels are just about a necessity. If you prefer an LS430, I'd recommend looking for an LS430 that has just come off a three year lease and which is within the normal mileage allowance for a three lease lease - 36,000 miles or less or whatever that is in kilometers. I plan to keep the off lease, low mileage, 2000 LS400 I bought in 2003 for about 6 more years - 10 years total. Four years after I bought it, it is at 83,000 miles and has had no problems at all -- only normal maintenance has been needed. But if you prefer the ES, buy one of those.
djspawn00 Posted March 9, 2007 Posted March 9, 2007 If after all of this you still don't know what to do... flip a coin... then ignore the coin and do what you feel is best.
vacation Posted March 9, 2007 Posted March 9, 2007 For me the decision would be simple: Get the LS!!! While both cars are fantastic, the LS is in a completely different league than the ES. Simple decision.
SW03ES Posted March 9, 2007 Posted March 9, 2007 I don't understand the concept of choosing between an ES350 and an LS430. An ES and an LS don't "feel" the same at all. The rear wheel drive GS and LS are a lot more similar. Either you prefer an ES or you prefer an LS. They aren't interchangeable. An LS430 will likely cost you quite a bit more to operate than an ES350 and not just in fuel costs. For example, even in Toronto you could probably get buy without snow tires on a front wheel drive ES. But on an LS430, four snow tires and an extra set of wheels are just about a necessity. I disagree, the ES and the LS drive and ride a lot more alike than the LS and the GS. Yes the GS is RWD but its sportier, smaller, less sound isolated, and firmer damped. The 02-06 ES and especially the 07 were specifically designed to offer a lot of the driving experience of the LS for less money, as a matter of fact one of the press points in the 07 press manual was that the ES350 is as smooth and as quiet as the original LS400. New vs new I'd take an LS every time, I think its worth the premium. But a NEW ES vs a USED LS, the snob in me would take the ES I think because its new, as it did last time.
RFeldes Posted March 9, 2007 Posted March 9, 2007 I hate to say it but the LS is a different breed...I've driven ES loaners and it is more like a Camry than an LS. An LS with 20-30k miles is the way to go..IMHO..better yet, go drive them both and you will see what I mean. ;)
SW03ES Posted March 10, 2007 Posted March 10, 2007 You can't take loaners into consideration really, they're beat up and the tires are inflated all over the place, etc. Of course the LS is a better car, it costs twice as much. But, to say that its less similar to the LS than the GS isn't true. For the record I know several people who have come down to ES models from LS models to save cost that have been satisfied, my dad has driven LS cars for nearly 10 years and has commented to me on how similar mine drives to his. The car was designed to offer a cheaper alternative to the LS. Now, that said I am planning on trading my ES for an LS in September lol. Its not the LS, but the ES is a really great car and its a LOT of car for the money.
1990LS400 Posted March 10, 2007 Posted March 10, 2007 You can't take loaners into consideration really, they're beat up and the tires are inflated all over the place, etc. Of course the LS is a better car, it costs twice as much. But, to say that its less similar to the LS than the GS isn't true. Gosh, the last ES330 loaner I had was very low mileage, in pristine condition and the tires were not over inflated. The Lexus dealer here doesn't loan out junk. Steve, does your Lexus dealer loan out junk? A rear drive GS simply drives (and "feels") far more like a rear drive LS than a front drive ES. Saying otherwise is, well, an "interesting" statement. I haven't driven an ES350 yet but the last ES330 loaner I had felt identical in driving dynamics to our V6 Camry -- lots of front drive "push" and the same buzzy drive train to boot. Its somewhat loose and unpredictable handling scared the !Removed! out of me when I drove it hard on the way from the Lexus dealer to my office and I quickly backed off the throttle to keep from getting into trouble. But, the interior of the ES330 was very nice - a lot nicer than our Camry - but it didn't have the quality feel of an LS of any year and it was missing a number of comfort and convenient features that LS owners take for granted. Maybe the ES350 is a little more like an LS - I haven't driven one yet.
SW03ES Posted March 10, 2007 Posted March 10, 2007 My dealer loans out junk LOL. Nice and modern fleet but they're never washed and always trashed. They're in the process of completely remodeling my dealer (it will be the 2nd largest dealer on the east coast when its done) and their facilities right now are extremely limited. Maybe when they get it done it'll be different. As for the GS vs the LS vs the ES, I've driven all of them back to back at length many times and while you're right the RWD vs FWD differences are there in the ES, the ride comfort and noise isolation levels in the ES are much closer to the LS than they are in the GS, as they are designed to be. Unfortunately they took a huge step back in interior quality with the ES350, but the ride and drive is more LS like than ever. As far as quality and convienience features and quality feel, again the ES costs half what the LS costs, and if you weren't going back and forth from an LS to an ES and back you won't notice. Believe me I know, I'm an LS-head and I'm completely in love with how my ES feels and drives...until I drive an LS. As long as I don't drive one I'm fine! The tradeoffs for me at the time would have been huge had I purchased the 00 LS instead of the new ES, I'd have a nav system that is archaic and not updatable and I wouldn't have been able to lease (even though I subsequently did buy it out of the lease). So, I'm content with the decision I made. Again, if used doesn't bother you get an 04+ LS, if it does you'll be happy with the ES.
SKperformance Posted March 10, 2007 Posted March 10, 2007 ES350 unless you are a large car lover like myself.
Curious P Posted March 12, 2007 Author Posted March 12, 2007 Hey guys, Thanks for all the advice. I decided to take ES350 and the LS430 for back to back test drives. Both cars are amazing, and I wouldn't have been disappointed with either, but when push came to shove, I simply preferred the LS430. The car handles beautifuly, has an amazing interior that IMHO looks much better than the ES350 even though it's a few years older, is quieter, and, I believe, should age more gracefully. It's a used car (with 20K miles) but I went through the history and it's been well maintained (all service was done at the dealership). I threw on a new pair of tires for the peace of mind (went with a set of Goodyear TripleTreads). Any recommendations on anything else I should do in the near future? The oil was changed about 500 miles ago. Thanks again for all the help!
SW03ES Posted March 12, 2007 Posted March 12, 2007 20k miles you're just getting started, that car will drive exactly as it does right now for 250k miles if you stay on top of the maintenance, it really is a wonderful car. Congrats!
05silverls430 Posted March 13, 2007 Posted March 13, 2007 Congrats! I agree with your decision on the LS! For me, there's no comparison. I've never been a fan of the ES (no offense Steve). Yes, the 01-03 aren't as nice looking as the 04-06, however it's still a great car, the interior is (nearly) identical and they drive the same (except for the transmission). I'm sure you'll be happy with your purchase!
blake918 Posted March 13, 2007 Posted March 13, 2007 Congrats! B) The ES350 is no competition for a LS430; you made the right choice!
jainla Posted March 13, 2007 Posted March 13, 2007 Congratulations and welcome to the club! :) The LS is a magnificent car. Fortunately the first major service on the LS is the 30,000 mile fluids change; which you're still a while away from. I think that's the best part about these cars; there's really nothing special or unusual required to maintain them. Just follow the maintenance schedule, and they seem to just go and go. In a couple years you may want to find an indie mechanic as some dealerships seem to charge an arm and a leg; but if you're comfortable with the dealer pricing then just enjoy the customer service, the loaner car, and the coffee machine in the lobby. The only downside is that will probably have to chase off all your friends and family however as you may become the defacto chauffeur once they get to ride around in it. I'm thinking about installing a meter somewhere
JDK Posted March 13, 2007 Posted March 13, 2007 My '04 is coming off lease and I too was trying to figure out what to replace it with. I checked out the ES and while it is a great car, let me throw a wrench in your spokes. I also checked out the new '07 Avalon and for the price, I really think it's more car than the ES. Just a thought. (my wife drives my old '95 Avalon and even with 150K she will not part with it) FYI- I'm keeping my LS, I just cannot replace that much car for the same price as a new ES or Avalon! It shouldn't be a problem finding a LS coming off lease that has all of the service records and if the prevoius owner kept up oil changes, etc. the car should last you for a long time. Good Luck!
Curious P Posted March 13, 2007 Author Posted March 13, 2007 Thanks - so far I'm loving the car! The Avalon is definitely a nice car, but for whatever reason, I just don't really like the styling. It's a personal choice, most people don't like the styling of the 01-03 LS430 but I do. The important thing is to be happy with whichever car you choose - it's hard to go wrong!
SW03ES Posted March 13, 2007 Posted March 13, 2007 FYI- I'm keeping my LS, I just cannot replace that much car for the same price as a new ES or Avalon! It shouldn't be a problem finding a LS coming off lease that has all of the service records and if the prevoius owner kept up oil changes, etc. the car should last you for a long time. Good Luck! I read somewhere that the LS has one of the highest % of owners who buy out their leases instead of leasing new ones in the industry.
Pursuit Posted March 16, 2007 Posted March 16, 2007 I was faced with the same decision 2 months ago and I went the LS route purchasing an 02' Ultra with 40k miles. I could not justify paying the 7k more for an ES that does not have the prestige or luxury that the LS has. That front wheel drive torque steer kills me. We are on a Lexus LS forum so people here know these cars but those who are not so knowledgeable thought I just paid 69K for a brand new LS and are floored every time they ride in it. I feel great about paying 29K for a car that was is in excellent condition without a scratch, and it was 71K 4 years before I bought it. The technology in the Ultra LS far surpasses any car I have ever been in. The only car that comes close is the W12 VW PHAETON which I also have experience with. An ES is a great car but is is at the end of the day an entry level luxury car while the LS is premium Luxury.
Curious P Posted March 16, 2007 Author Posted March 16, 2007 Hey Pursuit, My '02 is also an Ultra. Definitely the best ride I've ever felt. I took the highway into the office this morning (usually I take public transport - I can't stand sitting in traffic), and the difference in driving experience between my old car and the the LS is simply remarkable! The LS tamed so many of the potholes and cracks, I didn't even recognize that I was driving on one of the most dreaded highways in Canada! I do however, like a few things about my old car over the LS: 1) The lights on the LS stay on to long after locking the car (about 15-20 seconds). Anyone know how to change the timer? 2) I don't like how the clock turns off as soon as you turn off the ignition. I prefer to turn off the car, grab my bag, and then check the time before I head out, but I guess I'll need to change my routine! (Hard for a guy my age!) 3) The trunk lid doesn't open automatically when you unlock it. Other than these small thins, I'm defintiely happy with my purchase. Enjoy your *new* LS!
SW03ES Posted March 16, 2007 Posted March 16, 2007 The dealer can change the time the lights stay on, or if you press "lock" on your key fob twice they will shut off.
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