Es 350 Vs. Bmw

[detaildoc]

Ok, so back in June of this year I decided to do a major upgrade. I went from my 1995 Honda Civic to an ES 350, and I have to tell you all, I am loving this car. Going for a Lexus however, was not really my first choice, my first choice was the BMW 5 or 3 series (which are very popular in Southern California). I test drove both of them. The BMW 3 series was just way too small, so I test drove the 5 series. I have to say, I was very dissapointed with both series. Although the 5 series has a very cool exterior, the interior just screamed economy sedan with a few semi luxury additions. These cars just don't have any luxury or comfort and the interior is just too plain. Although they handle very well, I felt the drive was very hard and tight, which after a long drive to and back from work in So Cal traffic, I can imagine feeling very tired. I was not willing to pay $55K for the 528i given the hard drive and lack of luxury and comfort, just not worth it. So very dissapointed after my test drive I decided to go next door to Lexus, and wow, what a difference. I love the luxury and comfort of this vehicle. It is the best, most quite, comfortable, easy, soft drive ever. Guess what, my coworkers who have a BMW, are amazed by the luxury of my Es and the quite comfortable drive. Oh, by the way, I heard that the supposed free maintenance that comes with BMW's for the first 4 years, is not really free. They estimate the cost of parts and labor and add it to the sticker price (several thousands). So that means, that the BMW 5 series really costs around the same as a Lexus, you are just paying for the maintenance in advance, so for those people who think that BMWs are better cars because they are more expensive, think again, you are paying more for less comfort and less luxury. In addition, if you read any of the latests reviews such as Consumer Report, you will see that Lexus are more reliable vehicles.

[djspawn00]

Yeah, you really are paying for that "free" service... but taking a 5 series through a series of twisties is a very different experience than taking an ES through the same turns, both cars appeal to different desires.

[wwest]

The ES350 is FWD...

Klhutch said:

"..and AWD just makes them insanely overconfident...."

Wow, couldn't have said it better myself.

And THAT, in a nutshell, is EXACTLY what is wrong with FWD!

Good, EXCELLENT, for initial get up and go, but DEADLY thereafter.

As also is F/AWD, front torque biased AWD.

And I might add, for the inexperienced driver, 4WD, and yes, even a 4X4 in 4-high.

Note that neither RWD nor R/AWD are on my HAZARDOUS list.

If a 4X4 driver doesn't have the good sense to take the vehicle out of 4X4 mode once underway at a goodly roadspeed then I would call them inexperienced. I currently own a 2001 F/AWD RX300 and let me tell you that you will not find me out in those conditions absent tire chains on ONLY the rear wheels. I cannot disable the HAZARDOUS AWD system nor the adverse safety effects of its front torque biasing but on a slippery roadbed I can certainly negate those effects via those rear tire chains.

The old Ford Aerostar, R/AWD (fulltime...) did it best by far. 30/70 F/R normal torque bias and automatically switched to 50/50 F/R with wheel slippage, EXCEPT above ~10 MPH it always remained 30/70. The only improvement I might suggest is 0/100 F/R once underway.

But then if I read the specifications on the newer 4runners' AWD mode it will remove engine drive/lagging torque from the front "incrementally" with increasing lateral, stearing, loads, loading. Light or no stearing loads, 30/70 F/R torque biasing, HIGH stearing loads, 0/100.

IMMHO FWD and F/AWD purchasers/drivers should be REQUIRED to take lessons on handling charactoristics of those vehicles on an adverse, SLIPPERY, roadbed before being given the "keys".

[SW03ES]

wwest. Will you give it a rest already?

Anyways, to the OP. Its not that BMWs are inferior to Lexus or that Lexus are inferior to BMWs. They're just very different vehicles suited to different drivers. BMWs are sport sedans, and as such they have a different flavor than the Lexus. Like you I've always been impressed with the style of a BMW, but always dissapointed in the drive. They're just not my kind of car. To people who like a sport sedan though, the ES would be a huge dissapointment because theres absolutely nothing sporty about it.

[ella]

Funny whenever you see some internet post on which to choose Lexus or BMW Lexus gets slammed. -Seems like a lot of people that don't drive Bimmers back them up because somewhere someone told them they were the ultimate driving machine and they believe it!

I was ready to sign on the dotted line for a 328xi until I test drove the IS line for fun. WOW it worked for me. The interior sold me, plush, quiet, smooth ride, nice dash, luxury features galore! I just felt the 328 had a dash you would see in a 1991 Honda, cheap obsolete, bare.

BUT I still turn my head when a 328 coupe goes by... perfection!

Oh and I also saw a new 335 get dusted by a Acura TL in a street race, which didn't inspire confidence in their "sports sedan"

[SW03ES]

It depends on who you're talking to. A BMW is an image car, and a lot of the car enthusiasts on the internet are image concious, thats why you see Lexus get slammed. There aren't as many "Lexus enthusiasts" out there (yet).

As for the 335 getting dusted by the TL, in a straight line sure. Bur wait until the first curve when the bloated, front heavy FWD TL ploughs into it while the perfectly balanced RWD 335 glides right through. A great sport sedan is not just about acceleration, in fact its not even mainly about acceleration. Its about balance and grace when handling. Nobody makes a sport sedan like BMW, although Lexus and Infiniti are getting close with the IS and the G. The IS is still pretty rough around the edges, but the G is very polished. Although, not as polished as a BMW.

The TL is a nice car, but its a "sport sedan" for people who move up from Honda Civics and think those are sport sedans too. A sport sedan cannot be FWD.

[drdoctormd]

I just left a BMW 5-series for an ES 350. I wouldn't necessarily call the Bimmer "spartan" in terms of interior appointments, but it seems a more serious driver's machine, i.e. not a passenger's car. As many are fond of saying, in Germany the Bimmers have no cupholders. The interior is nice enough but it is not meant to be a second home.

[Dallas Lexus Driver]

Greetings. My wife and I have this debate on a weekly basis. She has an ES350 and I a BMW X3. I think they are both excellent cars and companies that stand behind them. For people that want to grip the road, the BMW is for you. No luxury, just pure glue to the road. For people that want comfort and sophisitication, the Lexus is the best choice. I love her car for road drips and she loves mine for going on a cloverleaf at 80MPH. The best thing about the Lexus though is the free car wash. Clearly they do it for a reason as you wait for your car to be finished, you can drool over the next new Lexus model.

[Toysrme]

BMW takes all the luxury out & spends most of the money on the unequal A arm suspension. Then whatever's left over goes to leather seats & navigation.

[GMoney749]

The best thing about the Lexus though is the free car wash. Clearly they do it for a reason as you wait for your car to be finished, you can drool over the next new Lexus model.

Funny, I've taken to asking that they NOT wash the car after service. My car has chrome wheels and they NEVER dry them (two different dealerships), so they go in to the dealer nice and clean and come out covered with waterspots. There's usually a pond on top of the rear bumper as well...and water dripping off the side mirrors.....

Along those lines, I took the car in today for the 5000-mile service and was given a new Camary sport as a loaner. Anyone who thinks the ES isn't worth the price difference is either on crack or hasn't spent any time in both cars.

In my opinion. : :whistles:

[SW03ES]

Agreed, the dealer carwashers in general are hacks, I always require they skip the car wash.

[elementau]

I felt the same way with many of your obsevations. If you want to drive for the sake of driving, by all means get the "Ultimate Driving Machine." The best car I've ever driven was my friends 5-series. Went 110mph on the PCH US HWY1 and it felt like I was driving on rails. That being said, the most comfortable car I've ever driven and ridden in was my ES350. This turned me around. I realized for work I was required to drive 80 miles a day and I'm on my feet the whole time I'm at work. So the stiff seats and the tight steering wasn't really a relaxing thing to drive home in. SO when I drive my Lex home I feel like i'm in my Lazyboy in the living room. The thing practically drives itself. I've never been fond of Bimmer interiors. By the way, other cars I test drove were the 3-series and 5 series, Audi A4 and A6, Benz c-class, Volvo S40 and S60, Acura TL (very nice car as well), Infinity G35 (also very nice balance), and Lex GS series. You have to understand that this was going to be my first luxury vehicle so I had to start right, and I think I did. I think the car chose me as I was not planning to purchase it that day, but well into next year.

[SW03ES]

That being said, the most comfortable car I've ever driven and ridden in was my ES350.

Don't ever drive an LS then lol

[Elan]

Ok, so back in June of this year I decided to do a major upgrade. I went from my 1995 Honda Civic to an ES 350, and I have to tell you all, I am loving this car. Going for a Lexus however, was not really my first choice, my first choice was the BMW 5 or 3 series (which are very popular in Southern California). I test drove both of them. The BMW 3 series was just way too small, so I test drove the 5 series. I have to say, I was very dissapointed with both series. Although the 5 series has a very cool exterior, the interior just screamed economy sedan with a few semi luxury additions. These cars just don't have any luxury or comfort and the interior is just too plain. Although they handle very well, I felt the drive was very hard and tight, which after a long drive to and back from work in So Cal traffic, I can imagine feeling very tired. I was not willing to pay $55K for the 528i given the hard drive and lack of luxury and comfort, just not worth it. So very dissapointed after my test drive I decided to go next door to Lexus, and wow, what a difference. I love the luxury and comfort of this vehicle. It is the best, most quite, comfortable, easy, soft drive ever. Guess what, my coworkers who have a BMW, are amazed by the luxury of my Es and the quite comfortable drive. Oh, by the way, I heard that the supposed free maintenance that comes with BMW's for the first 4 years, is not really free. They estimate the cost of parts and labor and add it to the sticker price (several thousands). So that means, that the BMW 5 series really costs around the same as a Lexus, you are just paying for the maintenance in advance, so for those people who think that BMWs are better cars because they are more expensive, think again, you are paying more for less comfort and less luxury. In addition, if you read any of the latests reviews such as Consumer Report, you will see that Lexus are more reliable vehicles.

I traded a 5 series for ES 350 last month, my wife drives a 2006 BMW 330i. The two main reasons I bought the Lexus instead of a 5 series is the $10,000 difference in price and Lexus reliability. Just look at the door panels on these two cars and the better quality and luxury on the BMW is readily apparent. The BMW is built like a tank and gives you plenty of feedback in the steering and brakes while the Lexus steering wheel feels as if it isn't connected to anything. The 3 series isn't a great car for long distance traveling but the Lexus can't touch it for getting from point A to B.

[Rickanns]

Everyone is right on with their summaries. You can also add the Mercedez C class to the tightly sprung, performance classification. Every pebble on the road is felt in the cabin. Twenty years ago, I would have loved the Mercedez to cruise the curvy mountain roads, but no more.

We just picked up our ES350 last week after testing the new Honda (best NAV system by far), the Avalon, the Mercedez C300, and the Lexus. The Honda is still not a refined ride; the Avalon is a really nice car but not as nicely equipped as the ES and the NAV is really a step behind in technology (believe it or not, the Nav in the new Tundra pickup exceeds the Avalon - go figure); the Mercedez is a sports car.

We are really enjoying the ES350 and look forward to some road trips to really check it out. Combined with my 2007 VW Touareg, our driving is in a state of nirvana right now.

Rick

[rjt65]

If you live in the North east or other snow environments better to have FWD than rear wheel. Add to the race some snow or ice and the rear wheel might just sit in the snow!

I remember me in my little Nissan Stanza (FWD) like 18 years ago in queens NY leaving work and driving some folks home (so they would not have to take the slowed bus) and seeing A Lexus and beamer spinning wheels in an effort to get up the hill on the icey/snowy street.

As I puttered by I had a big smile on my face!

I had a maxima Sports Edition which had fwd. so I know the benifits of real wheel drive but as I am not a racer and live in NY either FWD or AWD is a necessity.

to each their own...

It depends on who you're talking to. A BMW is an image car, and a lot of the car enthusiasts on the internet are image concious, thats why you see Lexus get slammed. There aren't as many "Lexus enthusiasts" out there (yet).

As for the 335 getting dusted by the TL, in a straight line sure. Bur wait until the first curve when the bloated, front heavy FWD TL ploughs into it while the perfectly balanced RWD 335 glides right through. A great sport sedan is not just about acceleration, in fact its not even mainly about acceleration. Its about balance and grace when handling. Nobody makes a sport sedan like BMW, although Lexus and Infiniti are getting close with the IS and the G. The IS is still pretty rough around the edges, but the G is very polished. Although, not as polished as a BMW.

The TL is a nice car, but its a "sport sedan" for people who move up from Honda Civics and think those are sport sedans too. A sport sedan cannot be FWD.

[JGTNewLexusOwner]

Ok, gotta add my 2 cents. I just purchased the ES350 UL in Dec. I researched this for 6 months (yep, anal I am). I considered and test drove (more than once), the BMW 3 and 5 Series, Mercedes Benz C Class (the new one), the Infiniti M35x, the Acura RL, the Cadillac CTS and STS, and, yes, the Lexus GS350AWD. Now, my primary consideration was quiet and comfort in the ride with technology advancements inside (bluetooth was a must). No where in my requirements was driving around corners 80 mph.

I have to tell you though, each of the German cars let you drive the "cloverleaf at 80 mph" and that was way cool!!! If I desired that, I would not be on this forum. So, the BMW is a great car, but not what I wanted (the 5 Series was comparable in room to the ES, the 3 series was small like the Acura TL). The not so good reliability was also a factor and the "value for the money" was a factor....that shifter (if I remember it is called something like idrive) is strange though!

As to the Infiniti, another great car but noisy inside. What I researched though is driving enthusiasts want to feel the road and hear the engine. I didn't. The Toyota Avalon was a very good car, but not very sporty looking (in my opinion). The Cadillac CTS was very cool but it didn't come with bluetooth (go figure...Cadillac could have had a sale) so I had to look at the STS which was almost what I went for. But when you come down to Cadillac and Lexus...resale value got me (plus I paid less for the ES). The GS AWD just was too much money for the loss of space in the trunk and that bump in the driver's floor drove me nuts (but I liked the inside and outside styling a little better than the ES). So, again, value for the money with the quiet and comfort and reliability, I chose the ES. Bottom line (ok ok I went on too much), BMW is a good car and "to each, his/her own".

[SW03ES]

RWD is just a more balanced drive, you can tell the difference.

Sure, FWD might be better in the snow...but I'd take RWD anyday.

[amf1932]

RWD is just a more balanced drive, you can tell the difference.

Sure, FWD might be better in the snow...but I'd take RWD anyday.

This was taken from an article in Popular Mechanics magazine that did extensive testing and comparisons between FWD and RWD cars.

Neither front-wheel drive nor rear-wheel drive is really better than the other. Today's sophisticated traction and stability control systems are so good they can mask or enhance the true driving dynamics of a vehicle. That

said, through most of this test we found the effectiveness of these systems had more to do with a car's performance than which wheels were actually doing the driving.

So you see, the with all the sophisticated traction and stability controls that Lexus uses, it doesn't make a damn bit of difference. IMO ;)

[SW03ES]

I COMPLETELY disagree. Has anyone else here driven a RWD Lexus with VSC and TRAC in the snow extensively AND driven a FWD Lexus with VSC and TRAC in the snow? I have, the FWD Lexus is much easier to get up to speed and drive around.

[amf1932]

I COMPLETELY disagree. Has anyone else here driven a RWD Lexus with VSC and TRAC in the snow extensively AND driven a FWD Lexus with VSC and TRAC in the snow? I have, the FWD Lexus is much easier to get up to speed and drive around.

Seems to be a contradiction here??

You said in your 1st. post,

Sure, FWD might be better in the snow...but I'd take RWD anyday.

But in your 2nd. post you said,

the FWD Lexus is much easier to get up to speed and drive around.

Why would you want a RWD than???

Why don't you spend a little time and read the full tests here> http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive...rs/1266931.html

[SW03ES]

I would not prefer the RWD in the snow. However, thats the only scenario I wouldn't prefer RWD in.

I don't need to read the tests, I've done the tests myself. The VSC and TRAC are excellent, but they don't make up for the difference between RWD and FWD in the snow on all season tires, at least not on a Lexus.

[busoptr]

Everyone is right on with their summaries. You can also add the Mercedez C class to the tightly sprung, performance classification. Every pebble on the road is felt in the cabin. Twenty years ago, I would have loved the Mercedez to cruise the curvy mountain roads, but no more.

We just picked up our ES350 last week after testing the new Honda (best NAV system by far), the Avalon, the Mercedez C300, and the Lexus. The Honda is still not a refined ride; the Avalon is a really nice car but not as nicely equipped as the ES and the NAV is really a step behind in technology (believe it or not, the Nav in the new Tundra pickup exceeds the Avalon - go figure); the Mercedez is a sports car.

We are really enjoying the ES350 and look forward to some road trips to really check it out. Combined with my 2007 VW Touareg, our driving is in a state of nirvana right now.

Rick

LEXUS ROCKSSSS PERIOD!!!

[KBRX330]

Interesting thread...my wife and I just bought a new ES350 tonight and when we were pulling out of the lot passing the used cars she asked me whey there were 7 or 8 one or two year old used BMW's lined up there in the front row..... I said gee what do you think? ;)

[beergutvt]

I just got a ES350 and as a former BMW owner I will say I miss my BMW. Bimmers just drive better. The Lexus though is much nicer on the inside than any BMW I ever had (and is the major reason I purchased it). I also agree that bimmers are not for long driving trips, my back would kill after any trip longer than 50miles. I dont think Lexus has converted me but my wife has fallen in love with it.