Sad Story

[Lexusfreak]

I found this this morning when I was going one of the dozens of car sites I check out fairly regularly & found this heartbraking story that occured very recently in Florida. :(

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Colum...photopanel..3.*

Although my Son is not quite a year old yet...I (WE, I will speak for my wife on this one too) don't ever want to go through something like this (that's why Daddy will never let Jr. borrow the Lexus when the time comes). It will be very interesting to see what kind of technology exists (to save these kids from themselves) though when he is ready to drive.

[dcfish]

I found this this morning when I was going one of the dozens of car sites I check out fairly regularly & found this heartbraking story that occured very recently in Florida. :(

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Colum...photopanel..3.*

Although my Son is not quite a year old yet...I (WE, I will speak for my wife on this one too) don't ever want to go through something like this (that's why Daddy will never let Jr. borrow the Lexus when the time comes). It will be very interesting to see what kind of technology exists (to save these kids from themselves) though when he is ready to drive.

What a tragedy, My heart goes out to the families of the 5 occupants, Every young driver should read/watch this, No matter what they drive. Damn shame :( :cries:

[SW03ES]

I found this this morning when I was going one of the dozens of car sites I check out fairly regularly & found this heartbraking story that occured very recently in Florida. :(

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Colum...photopanel..3.*

Although my Son is not quite a year old yet...I (WE, I will speak for my wife on this one too) don't ever want to go through something like this (that's why Daddy will never let Jr. borrow the Lexus when the time comes). It will be very interesting to see what kind of technology exists (to save these kids from themselves) though when he is ready to drive.

Although I agree, a kid has no place owning and driving a car as powerful as an M5, I disagree that I would never let my son drive my car.

When I was a kid I drove around in my dad's higher powered and expensive sedans ALL the time (including his LS400). I loved it, and he loved letting me. I never did anything like this, I always treated his car with the respect I treated him with and was more careful with it than I was my own. I had many friends who'se parents had similarly and more expensive cars that they let them drive and it was the same way with them.

This kid was a f&cking idiot, and the lack of respect he showed his father by treating his vehicle that way shows that the issue here is the quality of his upbringing, not that he had access to any specific car.

[djspawn00]

This happens all too often, the saddest part is tragedy like this can be so easily avoided.

[JIBBBY]

First car young drivers should not get a brand new M5 BMW elite sportcar...You are inviting trouble with that combination... An SUV would be a better first car for an 18 year old...

It's tragic, as I witnessed a simular crash many years ago... 4 - 16 year old kids were driving home in a Brand new Cyrsler conv. Lebaron after a night out and were speeding just a bit and proceeded to drive thru an intersection showing a green light...Another 19 year old kid was driving home drunk in a big SUV from a bar and ran the red light hitting the Lebaron broad side...The collision sent the Lebaron with the 4 teens directly flying into a huge solid big oak tree that was unforgiving.. I heard the bang and ran out of my friends house to see one young girl thrown from the car still laying face down motionless on the ground and the other 3 teens sitting calmly in the car at the tree with seat belts still fastened....I knew they were all dead right away....It looked like the three kids were sleeping peacefully but tragically they all were dead with broken necks and or severe head injures... The young girl thrown from the car also died instantly... The drunk kid in the SUV was sitting on the curve with his face in his hands crying and was unharmed physically... I walked away saying OH MY GOD!!!!!

There are still flowers being placed at that accident seen even 15 years later after the fact.... That is one accident I will never forget... I can still see all their faces today in my memory as I did go to check them all at the time......I was the first person at the sceen... I myself was only 24 years old at the time...

[Lexusfreak]

Although I agree, a kid has no place owning and driving a car as powerful as an M5, I disagree that I would never let my son drive my car.

When I was a kid I drove around in my dad's higher powered and expensive sedans ALL the time (including his LS400). I loved it, and he loved letting me. I never did anything like this, I always treated his car with the respect I treated him with and was more careful with it than I was my own. I had many friends who'se parents had similarly and more expensive cars that they let them drive and it was the same way with them.

This kid was a f&cking idiot, and the lack of respect he showed his father by treating his vehicle that way shows that the issue here is the quality of his upbringing, not that he had access to any specific car.

I hear what your saying Steve....I too was fortunate enough to be able to drive my Dad's 1990 Cadillac Fleetwood (FWD....boy did I love being seen it that thing! and don't laugh.....that was a sweet ride lol) when I turned 16. It had 180 HP & oodles of torque.....treated it with respect as you say & to this day I have a perfect driving record. ;)

I guess something as powerful as a 500 HP BMW M5 (with a V10!) however or anything remotely close to it is way too much car for any 18 year old....male or female.

We have gratuated licencing in Ontario (with a night time curfew & always have a regular experienced licenced & older driver in the passenger seat at all times, not a drop of alcohol in your system etc) & have for a number of years.....stats show it has reduced fatalities especially among the 16 - 24 crowd significantly compared to before that was implemented (I was lucky enough to not have to go through it, but Jack will). But I couldn't agree more about the upbringing part....your bang on.

I think starting a kid off in something much less powerful but sensible first.....even if they are embarassed to be seen in it (say a Corolla for example) because it's not cool or the flashiest ride in the high school parking lot. Perhaps I should never say never.....but it would be a few years & a high performance driving school or two, after he obtained his 'regular' drivers licence & driving responsibility is established before Dad's car is taken out.

This is a terrible thing that happened.....and I can't imagine how Dad feels.....because he is partly responsible I'm sorry to say for destroying 5 families, including his own :(

[JIBBBY]

I think it all depends on how responsible and mature the teen is too... Judgement of character comes into play more so then age now that I think about it..... The parents should be held responsible for that...

[SW03ES]

hear what your saying Steve....I too was fortunate enough to be able to drive my Dad's 1990 Cadillac Fleetwood (FWD....boy did I love being seen it that thing! and don't laugh.....that was a sweet ride lol) when I turned 16. It had 180 HP & oodles of torque.....treated it with respect as you say & to this day I have a perfect driving record.

I won't laugh, my Dad had a Cadillac when I turned 16, I loved driving it too. Of course, the LS400 was a big improvement ;)

I took my driver's test in that Cadillac.

We have graduated licensing here too now. I'm not sure what difference its made in accident rates. I think we all have the stories. When I was in high school 4 girls in a brand new BMW were driving home late trying to get home before curfew when they lost control due to lack of experience handling high powered RWD cars and hit a tree sideways at 60MPH. 3 out of 4 dead. My best friend got a new BMW 3 series coupe when he turned 16. I rode with him one time (and ONLY one time) and I remember telling my mother that I gave him a month until he totalled it. Well he surprised me...it only took him 3 weeks.

I think starting a kid off in something much less powerful but sensible first.....even if they are embarassed to be seen in it (say a Corolla for example) because it's not cool or the flashiest ride in the high school parking lot. Perhaps I should never say never.....but it would be a few years & a high performance driving school or two, after he obtained his 'regular' drivers licence & driving responsibility is established before Dad's car is taken out.

Oh I agree when it comes to their own car. But really and truly, unless you're driving a monster (I guess I would consider the M5 a monster...but not a 550) I don't see the harm in letting your son drive the car. When I first started driving my parents made me drive EVERYWHERE. Whenever we went anywhere I drove, so I had a lot of time behind the wheel with them in the car. I took several high performance driving schools too, but it was never a precursor to me being able to drive my fathers car.

Of course, it was a pretty sedate and predictable car compared to a manual 500hp M5...

[nc211]

At 34 years of age, I too have buried too many friends, all died by car accidents. All alcohol & speed related too. And I have narrowly avoided a few myself. One in a 92 Blazer that rolled at 60mph as a passenger, one as the driver of my 87' GTI on a slick road going 80mph, as a stupid teenager. I was raised on a go-cart, which to this day, I know has saved my life from my own stupidity. The instincts of motion and recovery tought to me from that go-cart, still hold true even to this day.

There is a very fine line that seperates a Father and a Friend. One wants to be both, but at times must ignore one for the other. SWO, I can tell your father was this way with you, simply by the fact that you showed him and his things respect. As a hormonal teenager, a son's respect for his father comes from a little bit of fear, which in my personal opinion is a good thing. I can assure you, from here to the ends of earth, that my son will know that I will whip his !Removed! if required, to get a point across on the rules of life, before life gets a chance to teach him. Because life ain't too forgiving. One mistake, and it's lights-out. I'd much rather have to explain myself to the likes of Oprah, then to the parents of a dead child, who died by the poor decisions my son made at the time. If forced to decide, I'd much rather have my boy hate my guts, but be alive, then to treat me like one of his buddies, and end up dead. Knowing what happens to a persons thinking around the 25 years of age mark, my way will pay off. And no BMW's for my teenager, period. They're too unforgiving, and tempting to push past the limit. Who here hasn't heard of someone wrecking a BMW due to speed? In a BMW, if you hear the tires squeel, it's too late, you've lost control and at the mercy of God. In a Corolla, you hear the tires squeel, it's telling you that you're at the limit and best slow it down. You show me a teenager who won't push a car to the squeeling point when the folks aren't around, and I'll show you a teenager that been taught not to, by an authority figure, not a friend.

I'm 34 years old, been around the block a few times, made and learned from several mistakes, cleared my 20's with good credit, no record, no std's, no addictions. Yet, put me in the driver's seat of a BMW M5, and I'd probably be in jail or in the ground within a week, much less a teenager. Letting an unsupervised kid put his foot on a gas peddle of a machine that begs for speed, is a "friendly" thing to do. And when my boy is at driving age, if one of his buddies comes over in a car like that to pick him up, there will be a problem.

[smooth1]

I just saw this thread. Sorry guys. I've been really busy. That accident happened about an hour North of where I live. I met Josh before at one of our car meets just a few weeks prior.

the car was his, not his dad's. And after I met him, the first thing I told myself was that kid should not be driving that car. The whole thing was a series of terrible decisions which culminated this tragic ending. This is a note to parents, not kids. Kids will be kids, but parents must be responsible and are reqiured to exersise better judgement. Giving thier kids everything they want is just foolish and begs for trouble.

[Leadfoot]

Its tragic that the playstation generation don't comprehend what sort of tragic situation a vehicle crash can be without having had personal experience.

NC211, I liked the points you made so much I have printed out this thread.

Such a waste.

[Lexusfreak]

At 34 years of age, I too have buried too many friends, all died by car accidents. All alcohol & speed related too. And I have narrowly avoided a few myself. One in a 92 Blazer that rolled at 60mph as a passenger, one as the driver of my 87' GTI on a slick road going 80mph, as a stupid teenager. I was raised on a go-cart, which to this day, I know has saved my life from my own stupidity. The instincts of motion and recovery tought to me from that go-cart, still hold true even to this day.

There is a very fine line that seperates a Father and a Friend. One wants to be both, but at times must ignore one for the other. SWO, I can tell your father was this way with you, simply by the fact that you showed him and his things respect. As a hormonal teenager, a son's respect for his father comes from a little bit of fear, which in my personal opinion is a good thing. I can assure you, from here to the ends of earth, that my son will know that I will whip his !Removed! if required, to get a point across on the rules of life, before life gets a chance to teach him. Because life ain't too forgiving. One mistake, and it's lights-out.

I'd much rather have to explain myself to the likes of Oprah, then to the parents of a dead child, who died by the poor decisions my son made at the time. If forced to decide, I'd much rather have my boy hate my guts, but be alive, then to treat me like one of his buddies, and end up dead. Knowing what happens to a persons thinking around the 25 years of age mark, my way will pay off. And no BMW's for my teenager, period. They're too unforgiving, and tempting to push past the limit. Who here hasn't heard of someone wrecking a BMW due to speed? In a BMW, if you hear the tires squeel, it's too late, you've lost control and at the mercy of God. In a Corolla, you hear the tires squeel, it's telling you that you're at the limit and best slow it down. You show me a teenager who won't push a car to the squeeling point when the folks aren't around, and I'll show you a teenager that been taught not to, by an authority figure, not a friend.

I'm 34 years old, been around the block a few times, made and learned from several mistakes, cleared my 20's with good credit, no record, no std's, no addictions. Yet, put me in the driver's seat of a BMW M5, and I'd probably be in jail or in the ground within a week, much less a teenager. Letting an unsupervised kid put his foot on a gas peddle of a machine that begs for speed, is a "friendly" thing to do. And when my boy is at driving age, if one of his buddies comes over in a car like that to pick him up, there will be a problem.

Very well said nc....especially the paragraph's I highlighted in your comments! ;) The same can be said about Mothers though too. ;) Those were the exact points I was trying to get across.

Smooth1.....your last sentence is spot on also.

[JIBBBY]

Smoothe you knew that kid?..WOW...Small world...

The law allows that when a kid turns 16 he is legally able to drive a car...Whether it be a fast car or a slow car... The more I think about it the more I come to the conclusion it is responsibility of the teen to control his or her actions and not the parent at that age... If the kid has a death wish and is extreme, he was a death wish and I believe the parents cannot stop that, might postpone it, delay it, lessen the chances, but not illiminate it...

I turned 16 and I bought myself a Chevy SS Nova (muscle car), I suped it up and it was fast...It was more of a straight ahead speedster and not a curve terror like an M5 BMW...So I never lost control but had fun, some close calls, etc..... I also owned a powerful motor cycle as a teen and never went down but pushed it at times..... All teens look for thrills and that's being a teen, some try to impress, some are influenced by friends to do stupid things, but in the end it is not the parents resposibility for his teens actions it is the teens themselves as he or she becomes an adult..... To do so would be an over bearing and controlling parent which may cause friction in the relationship between parent and teen and that is never good... Talk to teens, show them threads like these, etc. rather then just saying NO!!!

Do I think the parent should buy a teen a super fast race car as a first car, absolutely not!!!.. That would be irresponsible as a parent.. If the teen saved his money and wants to buy a fast car that is his choice and I don't think the parent should butt in, the teen earned it..... At some point the parent does have to cut the imbilical cord...

Today at age 39 I still own extremely fast car, it's probably a little faster then an M5 BMW, can almost corner as well too...... I enjoy hitting the gas and being thrust back against the seat as a teen and as an adult...Smoothe, I am sure you can relate....I share the same thrill as most teens do today... However, I do know the limits of the cars I drive where as a teen may not.. Bottom line is I believe the parent should teach the teen reponsibility rather then just saying no all the time..... That builds the relationship up and not breaks it down... Teach but not control...

Just my two cents as I read some of these posts.....

PS. If a teen has a fast car I believe the parent should teach safety and responsibility and maybe even take him or her to a track to learn the limitations of the car...

[RX in NC]

I disagree with you, JIBBBY. Keeping kids (and innocent strangers) alive is more important than worrying about developing a rift between the parents and the child. Teenagers do not have the mental and emotional capacity to make the correct decisions 100% of the time in these matters.

It all boils down to parents teaching kids respect and responsibility behind the wheel at all times or suffer the consequences. Then the parents have to prove that they mean what they say.

My daughter's first car in 1991 was a little rice rocket, a 1986 Honda CRV. I taught her to drive, I was tough on her, but I managed to convince her that it was for her own good (and to help keep herself and her friends alive). She knew that if she received a speeding ticket or if word got back to me that she was driving irresponsibly, I would take her car away from her in a heartbeat and she would go back to riding the bus to and from high school and have no easy means of getting around town in her free time. She managed to avoid any tickets, but she and a friend took an unauthorized joyride to Virginia Beach one day and thought that they could get back in time to appear that they were just getting home from swim team practice. What she didn't count on was being rearended by some stupid college kid while cruising the strip at the beach. Not her fault, but the accident required a police report and about $1,500 worth of repair to her car which was covered by the insurance company of the stupid kid who rearended her.

She knew she was in serious trouble with me as soon as she was hit. But she called and told me of the situation. After determining that all involved were not hurt, I spoke with the cop and he was convinced that she would be able to drive the car home (at least 180 miles) with no safety issues. She arrived home about 3 hours later, crying all the way (as did her friend).

After having the car repaired, I took it away from her for ONE FULL YEAR. No excuses, no begging, no whining, no crying - she created the mess, so she had to deal with the consequences. To drive my point home even further, her car became my errandsmobile during that time. I drove it somewhere almost every day, and made sure that she would see me driving off in it whenever possible. As per our agreement, she still had to cover the maintenance and insurance costs for that car all the while, even though all she could do during that year was to ride in it occasionally. She never drove it, not even just to move it so I or her mother could get another vehicle out of the garage when needed.

On the anniversary of her sneaky trip and accident, I gave her key back to her. All I said was, "Do we need to talk about what will happen if you break the rules again?" She just shook her head no because she knew that even the slightest slip-up would cause me to sell the car. I didn't care about losing money in the deal - all I cared about was her being completely responsible at all times with that vehicle. And she knew that without me saying anything else.

She learned a very hard and costly lesson and never gave me another problem with that vehicle. She drove it another six years before we donated it to charity and moved her into my hand-me-down Acura Legend.

The moral of this story is that when it comes to kids and cars, parents have to be tyrants. No exceptions, no excuses, no going back on tough decisions because you feel sorry for them. If they don't learn the valuable lessons they need to learn, you are eventually going to be dealing with tragedy - not just in your own family but in other families as well....

[Lexusfreak]

Kudos RX! B)

JIBBY, do you have any kids?

[JIBBBY]

Rx - I believe you handled that situation correctly... However, if you had developed a more trusting and open relationship with your daughter perhaps she would have never gone behind your back to the beach strip with friends and break your trust and rules to begin with..... Maybe, maybe not...

I am all about discipline when deserved but I am also all about COMMUNICATION and developing a trustful relationship with your kids also.....

Lexusfreak - No I do not have kids, but I work with homeless teens constantly in help programs and I am also currently helping raise my brothers kids when his wife died of cancer a few years ago... The oldest just got an SUV's as a first car and is very responsible with it and mature, he is a straight A student, very personible and is a star highschool football player.. Doesn't drink or do drugs...My brother and I have an open relationship with this teen and it works out just fine all the way across the board... Communication and understanding is just as important as rules and discipline that is all I am saying.... The younger one is an honor student.. Not bragg'n but I do know a little about raising kids the right way...

[smooth1]

I didn't "know" him, I just met him. I told him he had a nice car and asked if he did any work to it or if it was stock. His reply of "Stock 525 hp!! There's not alot you can do to them you know? It is a BMW." So my next question was met with some offence in that I asked him if it was his car, and then he said "yeah." But I think he thought I meant is it his car out of the crowd of people standing here, not his car as in he bought it, so I asked him if it was a lease or own, and that's when he said his dad leased it for him, but he planned on buying it outright when it was over. That was the extent of our conversation.

When I read the paper and saw it in the news, I was floored. I had to sit down. It was really weird, I just talked to him a few weeks before this happened. When I found out all the details, and talked to some of his freinds, afterwards, I felt really sad, but more angry at the parents for being so dumb!!!! So irrisponsible, and being a part of losing the lives of innoscent passengers!!!! They will have alot to live with for the rest of thier lives now. I can't even begin to imagine how many lives were effected by the day his dad said " Hey son, guess what I got you?"

[RX in NC]

JIBBBY,

All kids test rules and boundaries. My daughter did, I did, so did you, and so do your brother's kids regardless of how perfect you believe they are. It's not about'"developing a more trusting and open relationship", it's about teaching the difference between right and wrong when kids screw up, and they all do. The problem is when kids screw up and they kill themselves or somebody else. There are no second chances in that situation. You don't get a teachable moment - you get funerals and devastated lives left behind....

Good for you in working with your brother's kids and the homeless kids you intervene with. But you're not a parent. Until you are, I don't believe you'll completely comprehend what I and other parents are saying in this particular thread....

[nc211]

Rx - I believe you handled that situation correctly... However, if you had developed a more trusting and open relationship with your daughter perhaps she would have never gone behind your back to the beach strip with friends and break your trust and rules to begin with..... Maybe, maybe not...

I am all about discipline when deserved but I am also all about COMMUNICATION and developing a trustful relationship with your kids also.....

Lexusfreak - No I do not have kids, but I work with homeless teens constantly in help programs and I am also currently helping raise my brothers kids when his wife died of cancer a few years ago... The oldest just got an SUV's as a first car and is very responsible with it and mature, he is a straight A student, very personible and is a star highschool football player.. Doesn't drink or do drugs...My brother and I have an open relationship with this teen and it works out just fine all the way across the board... Communication and understanding is just as important as rules and discipline that is all I am saying.... The younger one is an honor student.. Not bragg'n but I do know a little about raising kids the right way...

I don't think anyone is saying communication isn't important amigo. Sounds like your nephews have good heads on their shoulders. B) Communication is part of the "friend" aspect of parenting. Talking to them, like an adult, in an adult manner really can produce great results. Some teenagers really react well to being treated with the same respect as an adult. In my years so far, I've found this to be more true in kids who are coming up in the world, working for it, earning it, than in kids who have had it given to them. Not to say all lucky kids don't listen, but you can see where we're coming from when trying to guide a child who doesn't necessarily know how much work was required to be able to buy that car, etc.. To them, if it's wrecked, another one will appear. A good example is the two MTV shows of "Two-A-Days" and that Newport Beach show. If my life plan continues to work out the way it is now, my wife and kids will have the fortunate option to make decisions based upon want, not need. But with that comes the risk of a detached sense of reality for my kids. That is when a trip down to the local ER to see the results of stupidity behind the wheel first hand. To walk over to the hospital chapel to listen to gut wrenching, heart broken mothers and fathers pray for anything to ease their pain. And then, the keys to the family minivan can be understood.

But if that fails, and Jr. comes home at 16 with booze on his breath, gets some obscene speeding ticket, and he doesn't react in kind with the same amount of respect I've shown him by communicating to him...well, Jr. is going to be walking..actually, limping, because I'm going to beat the unholy snot out of the kid. And if that doesn't work, we're moving and I'll make him the akward new kid at lunch with no friends. I'll do anything and everything to protect and teach, so I am the one who teaches him, not life.

[scottmcc]

I also Disagree with you Jibby.. I fortunately had to raise girls but having grown up with 5 brothers know how boys can be. Look at Hulk Hogans kid. That kid has no respect for the road or law and almost killed himself and his friend. His parents promoted, encouraged and funded his recklessness and they should be held responsible. This kid flaunted his arrogance around like he was untouchable.. It caught up to him.. Hulk should have beat his !Removed! when he got pulled over 3 times within a couple of hours for speeding in his VIPER...

Sure, there are always success story's of kids who have made the right decision on thier own.. Good for them, but the parent sometimes must say NO..

My daughter wanted to get her belly button pierced and get a Tatoo at 13. I said no.. She was not happy about it.. She asked again at 16.. I said no again.. Still was not happy about it. She is much older now and is thankful I said no... Some parents don't think its a big deal, I happen to be one that does..

Some kids still can't make a mature decision at 25. Some make great decisions at 16.. A parent has to recognize this ability and act accordingly.

Some parents let thier kids have guns. To give thier children guns without safety and awareness of how to use it is irresponsible of the Parent.

Some parents let thier kids have Crotch Rockets. Having owned many rice burners. It would be irresponsible for a parent to let thier kid purchase a Kawasaki ZX9 or Yamaha R1 as thier first bike.. Way too much power for the beginner.. THE PARENT MUST SAY NO IN THIS POSITION.. Start off with something smaller so you can learn to ride..

Many times my daughters did not talk to me for months and I was the bad guy., but guess what they are alive and happy..

In summary, as long as that teen lives under the Parents roof, the parent must sometimes make the proper decision for them..

PS.. Jibby.. You cannot compare your NOVA SS to the BMW. I like you, had a fast car in my youth.. 74 plymouth Duster 340... But when it was doing 100 MPH you new it and you were driving it trying to keep it straight with that 12 inch 5 spoke foam steering wheel......

[nc211]

I don't think it's so much of a disagreement between parenting tactics, as it is an agreement that something went wrong with this poor kid who got the BMW M5 in the first place. Either he was unaware of reality, his parents didn't communicate the risks correctly, or the teenager was being a teenager in a vehicle that far exceeded his maturity level. Eitherway, I think we all agree, this tragic conclusion to several adolecent lives should of and could of been prevented. Steps were missed somewhere in that young man's guidance. However, with that said, a person is a product of their environment, and it's not your enemies that will get you into trouble-but rather it is your friends. I just hope that when my son becomes a teenager and hits that spot where he stops asking and starts doing, that I've tought him enough to know going 150mph in anything on street tires is stupid/dumb/idiotic/deadly. And if he does survive, and I find out about it, he's a dead man! I'll brand his butt so badly that he won't be able to sit on anything as hard as leather seats, which should keep him in the domestics. I'm serious, I'll drag him down to a tatoo parlor and have a tiny little dot put on his arm, so for the rest of his life he'll look at that tiny little dot and remember just how stupid he was, and how lucky he is to have that tiny little dot.

[JIBBBY]

Well guys, I agree with you both %100... You guys are taking it to the extreme though... I am just saying if you have a son 16yrs of age and you know he has always had an interest in auto mechanics and fast cars... He saves his money thru Junoir high, and highschool to buy a sportscar for when he gets his drivers license.. The parent should allow him to pursue his hobby and interests to a certain degree if he has earned it.. Now, I am not saying the parents should go out and buy him a car like that, because obviously no parent wants to see their teens driving sportscars that are a potential for danger period.....Again, I believe if the kid is responsible enough to save that money for the car then I would venture to guess he will be mature enough to own and drive it... That is basically my childhood scenerio in nut shell...

I do think parents should say "NO" to certain things, absolutely!! Tatoo's, body piercings and even hangining around certain bad friends.. That's a no brainer...

I was mainly talking about having a real relationship with your teen, like being able to talk to the teen about responsiblity and build a certain kind of trust and relationship with him or her, being able to tell the teen 'NO" and make him or her understand why you are saying no... That is all I am saying... At some point the parent does have to realise the teen is growing up and becoming an adult and must learn to make their own choices in life.... That's called growing as a person..

I would also say physical discipline is good thing in moderation when raising a child, and timeouts don't always work... I would also say don't give your kids everything they want, including handouts, money, etc.. all the time, but make them work for it in some way... Developing a work ethic is sooooo important in my opinion in young people...Hand outs literaly cripple kids, such like getting junior a brand new M5 BMW for his 16th birthday as you can see what happen with those results from this thread.......

Fellas, I think we are all thinking along the same lines...

[nc211]

build a certain kind of trust and relationship with him or her, being able to tell the teen 'NO" and make him or her understand why you are saying no...

Perfectly stated Jibby... You won't be offended however if I require your son to have a class A level driver's license before picking up my daughter for a date, would you?

Nah, what am I saying? She won't go for some ToFu Californian anyway! Hahaha... :D :P

[SW03ES]

I really have to agree with RX. I don't think I would even let a 16 year old that had saved up enough money to buy a fast car buy a fast car. I just think its a recipie for disaster. Its not even really a question of them doing stupid things, its a question of whether they have the skill set or experience to handle such a car in adverse road conditions they're going to face.

For instance I just got home, there's tons of freezing rain out there right now and it crept up on us very quickly. The roads are a NIGHTMARE. All the bridges are frozen with cars sideways and closed, sirens and ambulances and firetrucks everywhere. I've been driving for 10 years, have taken several professional driving courses including advanced skid maneuvers and I'm in a 220HP FWD car with traction and yaw control. I've never seen anything like it, one touch of the gas and you're sliding sideways.

How could a 16 year old in a 400hp RWD car handle the vehicle in that scenario?!? Its a very real world scenario too.

Not my kid, keep the money and when you're out of my house and on your own you can buy an even better car like that.

[scottmcc]

With the scenero you just described, FLASHBACK I can hear one of my kids telling me that the roads are not that bad, and they will be really careful driving to the Justin Timberlake concert.. Please dad, pretty please....

JUST SAY NO!