Front- Wheel Drive

[ZeeD]

I am right now planning to buy a car and i have been left with 2 choices the LEXUS ES350 and the JEEP Grand Cherokee HEMI. I know these 2 cars cannot be compared but the price tag on them is the same, atleast where i live.

So today i test drove the Lexus ES350 and what i could not stand was the torque steer when i applied a full acceleration, it was just rediciculous, i could see the traction sign on the speedometer, that to be hounest is why i am worried of getting the ES.... I am thinking of the IS but the IS is just too small for me as i am a tall guy (187cm) and the GS is just above what i am willing to pay and frankely speaking i like the ES more cause its spacious but this front wheel drive is killing me.

So can those who have an ES help me out here and tell me how the drive of the car is especially its acceleration and top speed. Also if anyone can give me a list of front wheel drive cars so i can be able to compare the ES to it, for example is the toyota Avalon the ES's rival a front or rear wheel drive?

[DArustik]

The Avalon and Camry are both front wheel drives. Also the Acura TL is a front wheel drive. They are alright you kno, you get good traction in the snow, well better than RWD. Also the acceleration and speed are great on the ES i kno its a 3.5 producition i think 267HP, not sure about that number. The top speed is electronically limited to 138mph.

Good luck and lemme know what you end up doing.

[ZeeD]

Thankyou for the reply :)

I live in Dubai in the United Arab Emirates which is in the middle east, and i feel very optimistic about the ES350 i think it will be a great car for value and to be hounest the options on it are just too good to look away from.

Can anyone tell me how a front wheel drive differs from a rear wheel drive, as a FWD being an advantage on the snow does not really apply to me cause we dont have snow here just sands and roads :P.

Are FWD good on speed turns or bend overs on the road? Cause im worried that the car would not be able to turn at 140km on a road which turns right.

What do you guys here who own the ES350 think of it? I want your inital thoughts of the car and the long term thoughts as i am 80% sure that i will buy the ES350.

[SW03ES]

Well the main way FWD differs from RWD is that the front wheels power the car instead of the rear. ;)

I prefer RWD but the ES is one of the more neutral FWD cars I've driven. I don't notice much torque steer in mine or in the many 350s I've driven and if you compare it to other softly sprung RWD cars the handling differences aren't that dramatic.

Anyways, how often are you going to be pegging the throttle at every start and tking turns at breakneck speed anyways?

[Backyard Special]

Good thing your doing research before you buy the car unlike me. Are you aware of the trans problem?

Bottom line FWD car are built for economy nothing more.

FWD with a decent amount of power like the es350 is always going to have torque steer if you punch it. SW03ES said it best. When are you going to be punching the gas and turning at 140Km? The ES350 is a cruiser car at best it isn't a performance car.

[wwest]

At this very moment the industry, and especially Toyota/Lexus, is struggling mightily with/about this very question.

That's simply because it is becoming very obvious to the public at large that FWD and front torque biased AWD vehicles have a much lower overall safety factor that their RWD counterparts.

Simple. Engine compression braking on the front wheels upon FULL lift-throttle conditions can easily result in sudden loss of control on a slippery roadbed and even worse it can and will, unless abated via a clutch or a quick shift into neutral, interfere with the anti-lock braking system.

Follow the evolution of the engine/transaxle control firmware from the early, first, RX300 in'98' to the '01 model, then DBW in the RX330, and now..............

----------------------------------------------------------------

New, final(??) fix for delay/hesitation.

There are a few posts here and there by owners of '07 Avalons that seemingly indicate that Toyota is adopting the same procedure for automatic transaxles that are beginning to be used for FWD and front torque biased AWD vehicles that have a manual transmission. With a manual transmission the driver cannot be restricted from downshifting regardless of roadbed conditions so the new procedure seems to be to rev the engine up to an appropreately higher level to prevent a significantly high, too high, level of engine compression braking on the front wheels when/if the driver inadvertently downshifts in slippery roadbed conditions.

[rjt65]

Live or drive in an area with snow and than tell me FWD is just built for economy.

As an every day car I could never buy RWD in the NEAST. Ice and snow RWD is deadly.

AWD or FWD (4x4 too) is a necessity on snow or ice. Nothing like watching a RWD spinning its tires in the ice or snow and going nowhere

At this very moment the industry, and especially Toyota/Lexus, is struggling mightily with/about this very question.

That's simply because it is becoming very obvious to the public at large that FWD and front torque biased AWD vehicles have a much lower overall safety factor that their RWD counterparts.

Simple. Engine compression braking on the front wheels upon FULL lift-throttle conditions can easily result in sudden loss of control on a slippery roadbed and even worse it can and will, unless abated via a clutch or a quick shift into neutral, interfere with the anti-lock braking system.

Follow the evolution of the engine/transaxle control firmware from the early, first, RX300 in'98' to the '01 model, then DBW in the RX330, and now..............

----------------------------------------------------------------

New, final(??) fix for delay/hesitation.

There are a few posts here and there by owners of '07 Avalons that seemingly indicate that Toyota is adopting the same procedure for automatic transaxles that are beginning to be used for FWD and front torque biased AWD vehicles that have a manual transmission. With a manual transmission the driver cannot be restricted from downshifting regardless of roadbed conditions so the new procedure seems to be to rev the engine up to an appropreately higher level to prevent a significantly high, too high, level of engine compression braking on the front wheels when/if the driver inadvertently downshifts in slippery roadbed conditions.

[JGTNewLexusOwner]

If you are in Dubai, RWD is the better handling car. Since I drive in mixed conditions, FWD or AWD are needed here in the snow belt of the United States. I have had FWD cars now for several years and with Vehicle Stability Control and Electronic Traction Control, FWD is sufficient. But if I didn't need it, I would get the RWD....however, the Lexus ES is a nice car!

[Lexusfreak]

Live or drive in an area with snow and than tell me FWD is just built for economy.

As an every day car I could never buy RWD in the NEAST. Ice and snow RWD is deadly.

AWD or FWD (4x4 too) is a necessity on snow or ice. Nothing like watching a RWD spinning its tires in the ice or snow and going nowhere

I disagree....with today's technology & using common sense.....if you have a well balanced weight ratio (say as close to a 50% front & rear as possible...or there abouts) RWD car, add all the traction / stability 'nannies' that most vehicles come with these days (especially mid to higher end vehicles) & install a good set of winter tires......you will be more than fine to tackle a northeast winter or even a winter in Colorado.....one would have a very good arguement that what I just mentioned would trump any FWD vehicle equipped the same way. ;) RWD is easier to control in skids & such (imo) because the front wheels are not doing all of the work.

I've driven mostly FWD vehicles myself, & owned 2 Subaru Foresters (still own one).....so I am familiar with the benefits of AWD as well (again with the proper tires.....otherwise why bother?)....but many put too much stock in them & have a tendency to be way over confident especially in the bad stuff.......at the start of every winter, why is it I see an SUV (with AWD) as the first vehicle in the ditch.......every time without failure?

If one was driving a 1989 Cadillac Brougham (for example), I would have to agree with you on the FWD is better that RWD matter.....but not today. B)

Don't get me wrong....I'm not knocking FWD vehicles.....I just don't believe they are better than RWD for traction in snow & ice.

[rjt65]

Agree with you on the trucks ...people think they are 100% guaranteed no slide and they are most of the ones that are flying around too fast and smashingor getting stuck.

All the technologies been improved, but why do I still see so many Beemers and other RWD cars still spinning in their parking spots while I zip out and pass them by?

I think if you research on the net .... the net is this- AWD is king, but sometimes people mistake AWD as an enabler to drive to fast in poor conditions which may make them the most unsafe of all!

RWD will spin more and is harder to get started in ice,snow etc FWD easier to not spin get traction when starting and at lower speeds

RWD is better to control in a spin out scenario, more 'fun to drive' etc..

SO for most of us normal drivers, with red lights and a lot of starting and stopping in traffic, IMO FWD is better than RWD for safe driving.

But overall I guess both technologies are improving to narrow the gaps, but I am still liking my FWD for bad conditions.

cheers!

Live or drive in an area with snow and than tell me FWD is just built for economy.

As an every day car I could never buy RWD in the NEAST. Ice and snow RWD is deadly.

AWD or FWD (4x4 too) is a necessity on snow or ice. Nothing like watching a RWD spinning its tires in the ice or snow and going nowhere

I disagree....with today's technology & using common sense.....if you have a well balanced weight ratio (say as close to a 50% front & rear as possible...or there abouts) RWD car, add all the traction / stability 'nannies' that most vehicles come with these days (especially mid to higher end vehicles) & install a good set of winter tires......you will be more than fine to tackle a northeast winter or even a winter in Colorado.....one would have a very good arguement that what I just mentioned would trump any FWD vehicle equipped the same way. ;) RWD is easier to control in skids & such (imo) because the front wheels are not doing all of the work.

I've driven mostly FWD vehicles myself, & owned 2 Subaru Foresters (still own one).....so I am familiar with the benefits of AWD as well (again with the proper tires.....otherwise why bother?)....but many put too much stock in them & have a tendency to be way over confident especially in the bad stuff.......at the start of every winter, why is it I see an SUV (with AWD) as the first vehicle in the ditch.......every time without failure?

If one was driving a 1989 Cadillac Brougham (for example), I would have to agree with you on the FWD is better that RWD matter.....but not today. B)

Don't get me wrong....I'm not knocking FWD vehicles.....I just don't believe they are better than RWD for traction in snow & ice.

[wwest]

I guess my main point is this...

FWD and F/AWD vehicles have pretty much the same wintertime driving safety hazards of an SUV when in 4WD/4X4 vehicle. The differnce is that the 4WD/4X4 can be made SAFE by simply moving the mode to 2WD/RWD once the vehicle is underway, in motion. Leaving the mode in 4WD/4X4 will unduly subject the vehicle to understearing/plowing, and with ABS/VSC disabled, on an adverse roadbed. That's probably why you see so many 4WD/4X4 vehicles in the borrow pit, drivers without enough sense(***) nor experience to know the assets AND limitations of the vehicle they're driving.

*** "Look at me, I bought a 4WD/4X4 vehicle so I could drive safely throughout the winter".

[JGTNewLexusOwner]

Hey Lexusfreak, I do have to say that I have never had a RWD with the new technology. My points above though about FWD with ETC and VSC being as good as AWD probably gives credence to your points about RWD with ETC/VSC. All I know is that my ES350 definitely handles snow well! I also has a Cadillac STS owner tell me that his RWD with ETC/VSC drove great in the snow. I guess, though, since I never drove one and have only had FWD since ETC/VSC came in, don't think I would buy (wouldn't trust it....this would be my "head" issue not reality)!!!

[Lexusfreak]

I agree that FWD is very good in bad weather......so is AWD....no question.....I would be willing to bet however the BMW's, Mercedes etc that did spin out still had their all season shoes on & probably not driving at speeds suited to the road conditions though......that's why I mentioned the 'common sense' thing in my previous post. ;)

[wwest]

Hey Lexusfreak, I do have to say that I have never had a RWD with the new technology. My points above though about FWD with ETC and VSC being as good as AWD probably gives credence to your points about RWD with ETC/VSC. All I know is that my ES350 definitely handles snow well! I also has a Cadillac STS owner tell me that his RWD with ETC/VSC drove great in the snow. I guess, though, since I never drove one and have only had FWD since ETC/VSC came in, don't think I would buy (wouldn't trust it....this would be my "head" issue not reality)!!!

I'm pretty sure the Cadillac STS was FWD. Also quite sure it had an over-running clutch in the driveline such that it had NO engine compression braking. Additionally I seem to remember that it would dethrottle the engine if TC (stabili-trac??) activated. The control system would NOT allow full use of the NorthStar engine if the driver went WOT to "dig-out" from a full stop due to the danger of loss of control.

Methinks that it was all THAT that convinced Cadillac to abandon FWD and return to building REAL upscale cars.

[GS_Lover]

Hi everyone

I think the RWD is better overall than the FWD and the gap gets larger in snowy/slippery conditions. The problem with the front wheel drive in slippery conditions is that when going uphill, the weight of the car shifts toward the back and the pressure on the front tires ( due to the weight of the car ) becomes less, thus less traction on the front tires which makes it harder to move the car forward.

Watch this video for Fifth Gear, it's a very informative car shows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcQaHhSMGKM

[JGTNewLexusOwner]

Hey Lexusfreak, I do have to say that I have never had a RWD with the new technology. My points above though about FWD with ETC and VSC being as good as AWD probably gives credence to your points about RWD with ETC/VSC. All I know is that my ES350 definitely handles snow well! I also has a Cadillac STS owner tell me that his RWD with ETC/VSC drove great in the snow. I guess, though, since I never drove one and have only had FWD since ETC/VSC came in, don't think I would buy (wouldn't trust it....this would be my "head" issue not reality)!!!

I'm pretty sure the Cadillac STS was FWD. Also quite sure it had an over-running clutch in the driveline such that it had NO engine compression braking. Additionally I seem to remember that it would dethrottle the engine if TC (stabili-trac??) activated. The control system would NOT allow full use of the NorthStar engine if the driver went WOT to "dig-out" from a full stop due to the danger of loss of control.

Methinks that it was all THAT that convinced Cadillac to abandon FWD and return to building REAL upscale cars.

Hey wwest, the sales person had some special edition type of STS (I can't remember the name it was given but it had a larger hp engine and was RWD....I know it was RWD because there was one in the showroom that was really sporty but when he told me RWD, I said I didn't want it for the snow...and that is when he told me about his car...but I thought he was just saying that to get me to buy it!).

[Lexusfreak]

Sounds like it was the STS 'V' model. B)

[SW03ES]

The new STS is RWD, but the Seville (STS) was FWD for a very long time before that.

RWD is the better drivetrain, no question. In the snow most drivers will feel more secure in a FWD car than a RWD car on allseasons or summer tires, but a RWD car with snow tires will be superior.

One thing I really don't like about my ES is that its FWD.

[JGTNewLexusOwner]

I have to say I am looking at things a little differently. I really always liked FWD. I know that RWD is what driving enthusiasts swear by, but I was looking for AWD or FWD...hmmm, interesting informaiton in this post. I think my engineering mind will need to do a little more research to get my 'gut' into RWD! Maybe in my next car!

[Messerchmidt]

RWD is better when its not wet, these is no ice or snow on the ground, and you have a sufficiently powerful engine.

for most people, fwd is sufficient. I am a RWD kind of guy, but as I only have one car (well suv) - gimme AWD! Canadian winters suck! and yes I do still put snows on my RX...

if I had a summer car and used the RX as a winter beater - AWD all the way!

Hi everyone

I think the RWD is better overall than the FWD and the gap gets larger in snowy/slippery conditions. The problem with the front wheel drive in slippery conditions is that when going uphill, the weight of the car shifts toward the back and the pressure on the front tires ( due to the weight of the car ) becomes less, thus less traction on the front tires which makes it harder to move the car forward.

Watch this video for Fifth Gear, it's a very informative car shows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcQaHhSMGKM

[busoptr]

Good thing your doing research before you buy the car unlike me. Are you aware of the trans problem?

Bottom line FWD car are built for economy nothing more.

FWD with a decent amount of power like the es350 is always going to have torque steer if you punch it. SW03ES said it best. When are you going to be punching the gas and turning at 140Km? The ES350 is a cruiser car at best it isn't a performance car.

You hit it right on the head man, for your info guys, the es was not designed to be a porsche 911, its a luxury sedan, if youre a person who wants to punch the gas all the time or make 140 mile per hour turns you dont buy a es. The ES is for comfort and luxury and ample speed, why do you think it has 4 doors. Its the same thing with this guys who lower a 4 door accord and put body kits on them. Its a family sedan , Jeeez. You want a race car dont buy a 4 door. It just induces autism. LOL

[SW03ES]

Then why does every other Lexus sedan have RWD, including the LS which is built more for smooth and quiet driving than the ES. Why do Rolls Royces have RWD?

The ONLY reason the ES is FWD is that its cheaper to build.

[KBRX330]

Well where I live in NE Ohio we get 8-10 feet of snow annually which in itself is a challenge but we also get many bouts of freezing rain where the roadway becomes a solid sheet of ice. Therefore we have 2 AWD and 1 FWD vehicles because my wife and teenage daughter are usually behind the wheel. This past Winter found the wife twice driving home almost 100 miles at night with the kiddies on board on the Ohio Turnpike in freezing rain. The RX330 made it fine on both accounts so the AWD earned its due respect with me as it got them all home safely. That is my bottom line. Sure FWD & AWD do torque steer but if the ladies can adjust to it then I believe anyone can. JMO

[wwest]

Well where I live in NE Ohio we get 8-10 feet of snow annually which in itself is a challenge but we also get many bouts of freezing rain where the roadway becomes a solid sheet of ice. Therefore we have 2 AWD and 1 FWD vehicles because my wife and teenage daughter are usually behind the wheel. This past Winter found the wife twice driving home almost 100 miles at night with the kiddies on board on the Ohio Turnpike in freezing rain. The RX330 made it fine on both accounts so the AWD earned its due respect with me as it got them all home safely. That is my bottom line. Sure FWD & AWD do torque steer but if the ladies can adjust to it then I believe anyone can. JMO

Torque stear was NOT a consideration, not at all, in any of my statements regarding the safety hazards of driving a FWD or F/AWD vehicle on a low traction, ice, packed snow, surface. Besides which, on a slippery roadbed surface torque stear would have little or no opportunity to exhibit.

Best to compare the FWD or F/AWD safety issue to leaving the diff'l lock engaged with a 4WD/4X4 vehicle once "underway", NOT SAFE.

[KBRX330]

Good thing your doing research before you buy the car unlike me. Are you aware of the trans problem?

Bottom line FWD car are built for economy nothing more.

FWD with a decent amount of power like the es350 is always going to have torque steer if you punch it. SW03ES said it best. When are you going to be punching the gas and turning at 140Km? The ES350 is a cruiser car at best it isn't a performance car.

You hit it right on the head man, for your info guys, the es was not designed to be a porsche 911, its a luxury sedan, if youre a person who wants to punch the gas all the time or make 140 mile per hour turns you dont buy a es. The ES is for comfort and luxury and ample speed, why do you think it has 4 doors. Its the same thing with this guys who lower a 4 door accord and put body kits on them. Its a family sedan , Jeeez. You want a race car dont buy a 4 door. It just induces autism. LOL

Exactly, If you want a performance car don't get an ES. Not designed for performance at all. The idea that FWD is dangerous is ridiculous. Anybody out racing a FWD vehicle is trying to win a Darwin award IMO.