Driving In The Snow

[wwest]

When I see winter specialty tires being tested successfully against summer tires on an ice skating rink then, and only then, will I become a believer.

Believe it or not, there actually have been independent tests done in ice rinks (beyond the commercials or ads that were referred to above)--a quick search should uncover one.

I have often seen ice rink testing of one type/brand of winter specialty tire against a different type/brand of winter specialty tire but never against a summer tire vs.....

I believe Tire Rack also did an independent (brand-agnostic) test--the results were surprising, with some of the best non-studded winter tires performing similarly (or better) than studded tires on ice, and of course much better in less adverse conditions where studs greatly reduce braking ability and cornering traction on dry or merely wet (not frozen) road conditions.

[wwest]

It doesn't concern me whether you believe me or not. You have no reason to either way. We've never met. Nevertherless, for your own safety and empirical inquiry, I urge you to research this topic a bit more. You might find yourself changing your mind.

"..for your own safety..."

I will be 68 this year, wintertime driving expereince in New England, Goose Bay, Barrow, Anchorage, fairbanks, MT, WY, OR and WA. Lived here in the NW since '65, enjoyed lots of snowskiing and often travelled throughout the NW during the winter.

So, no thanks, I'll stick wityh my own life's experience, but thank you anyway.

[W201 sweden]

wwest, your opinions on FWD/RWD tires for winter use are not only wrong, they are also virtually impossible to find arguments FOR?

Take a look at the motor sports for instance, rally - where ALL drivers ALWAYS use studded tires on icey roads, european motor cycle ice track racing drivers or ice track car racing: all run on studded tires. They are free to run studded or studless tires. (Or summer tires, should anyone be that stupid...)

I do not know if your American car mags ever TEST tires, using controlled test conditions to measure how tires perform, but in Sweden (and Germany) we have plenty of these tests. Studs are very important for traction on ice and hard snow. In one test in front of me, with 20 winter tires, all, that is ALL studded tires are better than ANY of the studless winter tires when it comes to braking and accelerating on ice.

Do you REALLY think that your SUMMER tires, that are even worse than studless winter tires, would have a chance here? To convince people to go for real winter tires, a summer tire has sometimes been included in the test as reference.

Nowadays it is mandatory to have winter tires in Sweden, but in the tests from 5 or so years ago, the braking distance from these summer tires could be 50% (OR MORE) longer than from the WORST winter tire!

On the other hand, winter tires -even stuless- are no good in the summer. They are too soft and have too open tread to build up friction. Long breaking distance on dry and wet tarmac and concrete roads.

/Alexander

[scottmcc]

Having lived in the foothills of Colorado and driving in the mountains for many years they have a thing called the CHAIN LAW. When it snows bad they will post the CHAIN LAW IS IN EFFECT (CHAINS ONLY).. which means you cannot drive unless you have chains or studs on your tires..

I am sure they did this because they got tired of pulling all the people who thought that thier snow tires perform better than Chains and studs out of the ditch or off the side of the mountain..

Colorado Chain Law

The Colorado Chain Law is the popular term for the requirement for use of tire chains or adequate snow tires on mountain highways during heavy snow conditions. The term is somewhat of a misnomer because chains are not always required. There are two levels of the law that may be invoked as follows.

Chains or adequate snow tires required

This level requires the use of snow tires or traction devices such as chains, cable chains, etc. All-season radials do not necessarily qualify as snow tires. The tire must have the mud-and-snow designation on the sidewall (M+S).

Chains only

When this level is in effect, chains are required. The statute defines tire chains as either conventional, steel-link tire chains or traction devices of alternate materials and/or design provided that they are "capable of providing traction equal to or exceeding that of such metal chains under similar conditions" (42-4-106(5)(a)(I), CRS). Four-wheel drive vehicles are permitted to operate without tire chains provided that they have adequate tires.

[wwest]

Throughout the year there is a set of tire chains riding along on the top of, in the "well" of, the spare tire in my '01 AWD RX300. During the winter months I add a second set of tire chains on board. In any case as the RX is not truly an AWD vehicle, and is so heavily front torque biased, it never leaves its nice cozy garage if conditions warrant a vehicle more appropreate to conditions. That for the '94 AWD Ford Aerostar, also shod with nice quiet and comfortably riding summer tires, but with a TRUE AWD system, a REAR torque biased AWD system. But I only carry rear chains for it, for cases of need.

I well know the dangers presented by those summer tires in the appropreately adverse conditions so I NEVER hesitate to install those chains.

But again, we live here on the eastside of Seattle and we more often have occassion to go to the "snow" rather than have it come to us.

[Jify]

Living and driving in northern Canada, I can attest that the winter/ice tires make a large difference while driving.

I found these interesting. It's not a skating rink, but it shows some suitable tests. Theres 6 videos in the set, all with a variety of tests.

Enjoy!

Also, increasing your contact surface (ie summer tires) on the tire will increase traction IF it is making contact with a secure surface. However, when snow, ice, soap, etc is applied between the contact surface and the road surface, thing change. That larger contact area now spreads the weight of the car out over a greater area, DECREASING the normal force(or weight) applied by the car therefore DECREASING the friction between tires and road.

Try it out yourself, Grab an ice cube (or sheet of ice), a spoon, and a fork. Now try to scratch the ice using the bottom of the spoon (while applying as much force as your can!). Now try it with the fork, bet you don't have to push as hard for it to grab the ice and scratch. The spoon has a larger contact surface, the fork "points" are much smaller.

Basically, what I'm trying to say, from a physics point of view is:

Summer tires => more area => Therefore, weight/(larger area) = less normal force => LESS friction

Winter tires => less contact area => Therefore, weight/(smaller area) = more normal force => MORE friction

The softer rubber compound also increases the coefficient of friction, which is multiplied by the normal force to give you a frictional force.

Hope that didn't bore too many people! Happy winter driving y'all! :)

[SW03ES]

Which is also why winter tires have poorer traction in dry weather, the less contact area the less traction in that scenario.

[eatingupblacktop]

Which is also why winter tires have poorer traction in dry weather, the less contact area the less traction in that scenario.

Depending on the temperature. There is a threshold for amount of traction beyond which summer tires loose grip and winter tires gain grip. As long as you're above that threshold then you're right about greater contact having greater grip on a clean and dry surface.

[wwest]

Living and driving in northern Canada, I can attest that the winter/ice tires make a large difference while driving.

I found these interesting. It's not a skating rink, but it shows some suitable tests. Theres 6 videos in the set, all with a variety of tests.

Enjoy!

Also, increasing your contact surface (ie summer tires) on the tire will increase traction IF it is making contact with a secure surface. However, when snow, ice, soap, etc is applied between the contact surface and the road surface, thing change. That larger contact area now spreads the weight of the car out over a greater area, DECREASING the normal force(or weight) applied by the car therefore DECREASING the friction between tires and road.

Try it out yourself, Grab an ice cube (or sheet of ice), a spoon, and a fork. Now try to scratch the ice using the bottom of the spoon (while applying as much force as your can!). Now try it with the fork, bet you don't have to push as hard for it to grab the ice and scratch. The spoon has a larger contact surface, the fork "points" are much smaller.

Basically, what I'm trying to say, from a physics point of view is:

Summer tires => more area => Therefore, weight/(larger area) = less normal force => LESS friction

Winter tires => less contact area => Therefore, weight/(smaller area) = more normal force => MORE friction

The softer rubber compound also increases the coefficient of friction, which is multiplied by the normal force to give you a frictional force.

Hope that didn't bore too many people! Happy winter driving y'all! :)

Those, in the videos, are ALL conditions in which I would have immediately installled my chains.

Your physics theory probably works out if there is LOTS of traction to be had to begin with. But when traction is marginal to begin with I'll take the tire with the larger CSA.

[SW03ES]

Well bully for you then

To everyone else: Summer tires in snow and ice=stupid.

[wwest]

Well bully for you then

To everyone else: Summer tires in snow and ice=stupid.

I'm not sure you're hearing what I'm saying.

Around here winter specialty tires aer so rarely needed that it isn't cost effective to have them. I bought a good set, two sets really, of quick-n-easy install tire chains when I first purchased the '01 AWD RX300 and only the one set is now slightly worn. I expect the chains might just outlast the vehicle at this rate of use.

But what I have realized, in running summer tires constantly, is that in many cases, mostly on packed snow or ice, they actually outperfrom many vehicles equipped with winter specialty tires. Most of them will bypass the designated chain up areas, somewhat justifiably so, but then I come upon then up the road aways pulled over installed chains while I drive on by with only my summer tires.

But again, I do not hesitate, absolutely not, to stop and install tire chains if roadbed conditions warrant. In some cases not so much roadbed conditions but the idiots out there trying to drive their at SUVs (or worse) with no chains or studs.

But yet again, if these is NO BITE to the roadbed, noting for those rubber blocked or heavily siped tired to bite into, they will have less traction than my summer tires.

[landar]

Well bully for you then

To everyone else: Summer tires in snow and ice=stupid.

I'm not sure you're hearing what I'm saying.

Around here winter specialty tires aer so rarely needed that it isn't cost effective to have them. I bought a good set, two sets really, of quick-n-easy install tire chains when I first purchased the '01 AWD RX300 and only the one set is now slightly worn. I expect the chains might just outlast the vehicle at this rate of use.

But what I have realized, in running summer tires constantly, is that in many cases, mostly on packed snow or ice, they actually outperfrom many vehicles equipped with winter specialty tires. Most of them will bypass the designated chain up areas, somewhat justifiably so, but then I come upon then up the road aways pulled over installed chains while I drive on by with only my summer tires.

But again, I do not hesitate, absolutely not, to stop and install tire chains if roadbed conditions warrant. In some cases not so much roadbed conditions but the idiots out there trying to drive their at SUVs (or worse) with no chains or studs.

But yet again, if these is NO BITE to the roadbed, noting for those rubber blocked or heavily siped tired to bite into, they will have less traction than my summer tires.

Give em 'ell, wwest! I drove on packed snow/ice for the first time this winter with Turanza's, fully expecting the worst(because of the posts). To my surprise it handled

really well. We dont get a lot of snow here(80"/yr) and I really dont want the hassle of changing out tires. So far, no problems.

[new2mud]

Give em 'ell, wwest! I drove on packed snow/ice for the first time this winter with Turanza's, fully expecting the worst(because of the posts). To my surprise it handled

really well. We dont get a lot of snow here(80"/yr) and I really dont want the hassle of changing out tires. So far, no problems.

Actually it's not as binary as it may have come across in this thread. Even in what some in this thread have called a dangerous class of vehicle in snow, I have driven an AWD RX300 with new all-season tires through heavy snowpack and it did just fine.

If your all-season tires are brand new, then they may provide acceptable (to you) performance in limited snow. However, don't get lulled into a false sense of security. Try it again with 15k miles on them and you may have something else to report. Either way, it comes down to what's acceptable performance for you, and that varies with each driver.

For some, all-season tires may provide what they consider acceptable performance through the life of the tire. For me and my family, I place a much higher standard for winter handling characteristics...when I was single, it was a different story.

[SW03ES]

Again, you're talking about ALL SEASON TIRES new2, wwest is talking about SUMMER tires.

If you live in an area where you don't get a lot of snow no need to buy winter tires. I don't own winter tires. I don't however openly advocate the use of summer tires in the winter across the board and purport that they are better in the snow than winter tires like wwest does.

[wwest]

Well bully for you then

To everyone else: Summer tires in snow and ice=stupid.

I'm not sure you're hearing what I'm saying.

Around here winter specialty tires aer so rarely needed that it isn't cost effective to have them. I bought a good set, two sets really, of quick-n-easy install tire chains when I first purchased the '01 AWD RX300 and only the one set is now slightly worn. I expect the chains might just outlast the vehicle at this rate of use.

But what I have realized, in running summer tires constantly, is that in many cases, mostly on packed snow or ice, they actually outperfrom many vehicles equipped with winter specialty tires. Most of them will bypass the designated chain up areas, somewhat justifiably so, but then I come upon then up the road aways pulled over installed chains while I drive on by with only my summer tires.

But again, I do not hesitate, absolutely not, to stop and install tire chains if roadbed conditions warrant. In some cases not so much roadbed conditions but the idiots out there trying to drive their at SUVs (or worse) with no chains or studs.

But yet again, if these is NO BITE to the roadbed, noting for those rubber blocked or heavily siped tired to bite into, they will have less traction than my summer tires.

Give em 'ell, wwest! I drove on packed snow/ice for the first time this winter with Turanza's, fully expecting the worst(because of the posts). To my surprise it handled

really well. We dont get a lot of snow here(80"/yr) and I really dont want the hassle of changing out tires. So far, no problems.

Just be sure and keep those tire chains handy....I do.

[eatingupblacktop]

I wonder if I should get some for my snowblower?

[new2mud]

Again, you're talking about ALL SEASON TIRES new2, wwest is talking about SUMMER tires.

If you live in an area where you don't get a lot of snow no need to buy winter tires. I don't own winter tires. I don't however openly advocate the use of summer tires in the winter across the board and purport that they are better in the snow than winter tires like wwest does.

Actually, I have used the term all-season tires for benefit of the doubt--anybody with experience with modern dedicated summer compounds knows how squirrelly those tires get on bone dry pavement in the cold. I have dedicated ultra-high performance summer tires on 2 of my cars, and they grip like bubble gum on hot tarmac. However, once temps dip below 40 degrees, you can drift at the drop of the throttle until the tires get some heat in them.

[new2mud]

Just be sure and keep those tire chains handy....I do.

Here I wholeheartedly agree with WWEST: if you're going to run summer tires and only see occasional snow, then keep those chains handy. And know how to use them. (WWEST, I'll bet you'd be appalled at how many of today's driver's would take over 30 minutes to put on chains). But once those roads get dry, take those chains off immediately!

[eatingupblacktop]

Just be sure and keep those tire chains handy....I do.

Here I wholeheartedly agree with WWEST: if you're going to run summer tires and only see occasional snow, then keep those chains handy. And know how to use them. (WWEST, I'll bet you'd be appalled at how many of today's driver's would take over 30 minutes to put on chains). But once those roads get dry, take those chains off immediately!

Even though, as I posted elsewhere, it's been a "dense head" day for me today, I will have to admit that WW's position on chains can't be beat. If ya got heavy snow, chains is the way to go! So WW, now that we agree on something, when are we going for a beer?

[wwest]

Just be sure and keep those tire chains handy....I do.

Here I wholeheartedly agree with WWEST: if you're going to run summer tires and only see occasional snow, then keep those chains handy. And know how to use them. (WWEST, I'll bet you'd be appalled at how many of today's driver's would take over 30 minutes to put on chains). But once those roads get dry, take those chains off immediately!

Even though, as I posted elsewhere, it's been a "dense head" day for me today, I will have to admit that WW's position on chains can't be beat. If ya got heavy snow, chains is the way to go! So WW, now that we agree on something, when are we going for a beer?

Anytime you show up in Redmond just call me. I have no current or future plans for visiting Canada.

Don't have very much faith in the reliability of those CANDU reactors. Or in reality the QED "knock-off" PDP-11s that control them.

[Fongshr]

Hi,

I am thinking of buying another LS rear drive sedan...My 1995 LS400 has 270K on it....

I have found a very nice LS460 2008 with 27000 miles on it. But...I am wondering if the LS460 RWD drives any worse or better in snow than my 1995 LS 400 RWD?

The LS 460 I am looking at is a beautiful car, and I do want it....

so my question is how do the LS 460's handle in ice and snow. (With Snow tires--I have been using Michelin snows) I live in Northern CT , and I need to be able to drive in 4-8" of snow...Please let me know your thoughts??

Thanks,

T.

[sha4000]

I would think like any other RWD vehicle. Not very good compared to a FWD but with the right tires and skill it can be manageable. 4-8 inches is really pushing it even for a FWD car though.

[1990LS400]

Any LS460 would be much better in snow than a 95 LS. All 98-up LS cars have a "snow mode" transmission setting that makes a big difference and VSC is helpful too although trac/VSC sometimes has to be turned off to get moving when stopped in deep snow.

I drove the 2000 LS400 I just sold through about 10 inches of fresh snow last year past hundreds if not thousands of abandoned cars and SUV's. I used Bridgestone Blizzak WS70's on it and will buy WS70's (and extra wheels to put them on) for the Toyota Sienna I bought recently to replace my 2000 LS400. I think the FWD Sienna will do OK in the snow but my RWD 2000 LS400 was the best "snow car" I've ever owned - and I love to drive in snow for some demented reason. The LS460 will do even better with true winter tires - the ones with the mountain/snowflake symbol on the sidewall ... e.g. Michelin X-ice.

[Fongshr]

Thanks very much for this reply. I have been using the Michelin X-Ice this last year, on my 1995 LS 400 and went thru 5-6 snow storms with them here in CT, without issues ( I got to work NP and 25 miles back to my home.... I did generally avoid the very long, steep hills however on my travels.... We had a pretty bad winter here in CT too. T

[sha4000]

You guys must have some really special tires/cars because even though I can get around in the snow It's ALWAYS been a challenge to get around in the snow in both my 91 and 98. Especially when your parked and it turns to ice. I know all the tricks about not spinning the tires and and letting the car rock from reverse to drive. It can be done but it's no cake walk. I've been driving for more than 25 years so I consider myself exceptionally good in all weather conditions so I pass all those ppl that get stuck or are too scared to keep it moving on the roads. I just hate the ppl with the SUVs that always come flying down the road like they are immune to sliding and causing an accident!