alank22181 Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 I think you are getting excited, and so I'm not really interested in continuing this discussion. Whatever you think, you win. As the folks from Vermont DMV can attest to, the largest selling car in the state of Vermont (my home) is the AWD Subaru. My point, was, that if cars are to be compared, they should at least be comparable in all major respects, including if they are RWD and FWD, thus the Avalon/ES/Camry vis a vis all other cars in Lexus line up. Cars are very personal spaces and people make judgements about them based upon personal preferences. We should take heart in the tremendous variety of choices available to us and go on with life. About being a conservative driver.. YES I am; and I will do what I can to save $$$$ at the gas pump, even while driving a luxury car. However I drive at the same speed as anyone else around me. On recent trip of 800 miles using Interstates through VA NC, PA, NY and Massachusetts, I averaged 31 MPG. My top was 32mpg and the bot was 27. I also choose to keep very meticulous and accurate records. My top speed was 80 my avg speed was 68. I enjoy driving the ES330 and my best friends love driving their Avalon. The choices we made when we bought them were personal and I would never think of questioning why they made their choices- its none of my business. We should exercise good judgement, and restraint as we reply to another person's posting. In peace, harmony and good cheer... alank22181 (now living in NC) :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW03ES Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 My issue with the turn this conversation took is with this statement... "There is no agreeing to disagree on this." You can't force someone to concede that your opinion is right; no matter how passionately you hold it to be true. LOL its not my opinion, its a fact of physics. I think its you that lack the ability to concede that you may be the one who'se too tightly wound to his opinion. Thats what I meant by theres no agreeing to disagree about this, because its not an opinion. You can't agree to disagree that gravity works...it works. FWD cars have handling drawbacks when turning compared to RWD cars, this is a fact. I'm not talking about starting up, or getting out of a ditch, I mean handling when the car is moving at speed in slippery road conditions. The drive wheels being the same as the steering wheels puts FWD at a disadvantage. I learned this while being taught how to drive in adverse roadbed conditions by professional drivers. I also observed the differences at that time in a skid car, and I've observed them myself from my own experiences driving FWD, RWD, and AWD cars in the snow. Hopefully your opinions don't get you in a ditch one day. I'm glad you won a rally race. Next time you drive your FWD in the snow, slow way down before a turn. Have you driven a Buick Lucerne. Much better than any Lexus in steering, handling and general appearance..Pickup between 50 and 70 is terrible on the 6 cylynder Lexi. Teriffic. Why don't you trade your Lexus in on a Buick, go join a Buick forum and leave us alone? I don't have a problem with differing viewpoints, but the only thing you ever post is flamebait ragging on the brand of car this site is dedicated towards and that the site's members own. If thats your goal, find another forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rx330driver Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 lol seriously, why arent you driving a lucerne? its funny how lexus and toyot are number 1 in selling cars to americans...while american cars are going downhill. However, i think we should actually all throw away are cars and go out an buy buicks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartkat Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 Wouldn't you really rather drive a Buick? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmarG Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 man yall bruise easily. :D HE was just giving HIS opinion. I don't see how a 6-speed es350 can be slower than a 4 speed 275 hp car. Maybe because its so quiet it feels slower? Come on guys, yall can take criticism better than this. QUOTE(stuart8181) Have you driven a Buick Lucerne. Much better than any Lexus in steering, handling and general appearance.. Pickup between 50 and 70 is terrible on the 6 cylynder Lexi. thats not exactly ragging. Ragging would be " all your toyotas are the same and cant make car like gm, all your es300 are camry's anyway. Man Lexus' suck, why do youu even drive them? i would rather have a bucket of horse manure than your rebadged toyota." Thats ragging. :) (which i am using as an example and in no way feel that way) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartkat Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 man yall bruise easily. :D HE was just giving HIS opinion. I don't see how a 6-speed es350 can be slower than a 4 speed 275 hp car. Maybe because its so quiet it feels slower? Come on guys, yall can take criticism better than this. QUOTE(stuart8181) Have you driven a Buick Lucerne. Much better than any Lexus in steering, handling and general appearance.. Pickup between 50 and 70 is terrible on the 6 cylynder Lexi. thats not exactly ragging. Ragging would be " all your toyotas are the same and cant make car like gm, all your es300 are camry's anyway. Man Lexus' suck, why do youu even drive them? i would rather have a bucket of horse manure than your rebadged toyota." Thats ragging. :) (which i am using as an example and in no way feel that way) Partly because the pickup statement simply is not true. The dude apparently just wasn't thinking when he said that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW03ES Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 Partly because the pickup statement simply is not true. The dude apparently just wasn't thinking when he said that. And because basically everything this member has ever posted on this site has been along the lines of "Lexus is this, everything else is better, blah blah.". He's a troll, probably doesn't even have a Lexus. I'm glad I've been set straight though, now I wont have to spend $70,000 on that LS460. I'll just buy a Lucerne and pocket the other $40k! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmarG Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 OH.... well in that case... I see where your coming from. I just thought you guys were touchy... my bad :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW03ES Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 We're grumpy but there's usually a method to our madness lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LEXIRX330 Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 Buick? Did I miss something I thought this was about Camry and the ES... :D J/k I have been following this! LMAO :D I will just say when it comes to front wheel or rear wheel drive cars...I like AWD. I have had FWD, RWD, and my SUV is AWD... I would prefer the RWD to a FWD for many of the reasons that SW has mentioned but I can say that I will never forget my 1990 Ford Mustang GT 5.0...I was a SR in high school and we had a bad winter...I put 300 lbs of weight in the back of the car and every time I touched the gas pedal rear wheels would spin! But as long as you did not bottom the car out you could keep it out of the ditches by steering...I would not have been able to do that with a FWD (steer it) as said the front tires pull the car. Once you loose the traction with the front it will not pull anything (or steer) ??? One thing to remember is this FWD, RWD, AWD...when it is raining, snowing or there is ICE...SLOW the H E L L down...people kill me when they think that the can drive 80 with snow on the roads because they have a SUV, or because it is AWD...when you hydroplane or loose traction most people will overreact and end up causing others to get injured because of it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buford Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 I had to run by the Toyota dealer today. While I was there, I looked in the Camry they had on the floor. Now I'm starting to waffle on the ES 350 decision. I don't know if it's fair to say the interior was similar to the 350 we looked at, but it's clear they fell off the same tree. I hadn't seen the new Camry up close yet, and it is significantly nicer than my 5th gen LE. When I got home I played around with the "build your car" feature. The XLE V-6 with package C (the most stuff), is $31,180. When I went through the same drill with the ES I came us with $41,621 (for what I think is a somewhat similarly equipped car). This complicates matters! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LEXIRX330 Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 I hate the controls for the Heat/AC...etc. That is how they were laid out on the Highlander and that is why I decided not to get the Highlander I think the buttons look like a space shuttle...not very refined IMHO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buford Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 I think the buttons look like a space shuttle...not very refined IMHO! I see what you're saying. I think I sorta like larger controls. I like being able to see them in the corner of my eye! The XLE has wood-grain-style interior trim, and I sort of wonder what that looks like. I like it in the Sienna, although my wife doesn't care for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rx330driver Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 im sorry, i must be a little slow, exactly what part of the lexus looks like that toyota? there is no doubt that the new camry is an atractive car, but i dont see any button that looks remotely similar. perhaps the steerimng wheel? now you have to ask yourself, is the 10K worth the lexus badge to be seen at formal events? i think most of us in the forum would say yes...which is why i did not buy a highlander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buford Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 I actually didn't say they looked alike. I can see a family resemblence; like the one you can see in younger pictures of Martin Sheen and Charlie Sheen. :D I don't think the status perk alone is worth $10K, but that's just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LEXIRX330 Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 im sorry, i must be a little slow, exactly what part of the lexus looks like that toyota? there is no doubt that the new camry is an atractive car, but i dont see any button that looks remotely similar. perhaps the steerimng wheel? now you have to ask yourself, is the 10K worth the lexus badge to be seen at formal events? i think most of us in the forum would say yes...which is why i did not buy a highlander I was saying that I do not like the buttons in the Camry...and I said that they look like the buttons in the highlander not the ES. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rx330driver Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 woops. i was referring to buford but it's clear they fell off the same tree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW03ES Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 Buick? Did I miss something I thought this was about Camry and the ES LOL, I can't keep up either. Buford, I don't disagree with you. There's not a lot of quality difference between the 350 and the Camry interior wise now, far less so than was the case back in 03 when I bought mine. Not to say the overall interior quality of the 350 has suffered that much, its more that the Camry has gotten a LOT better. When you drive the two though, thats where the ES350 really pulls ahead. Its still much more refined and quiet, smoother. The exterior styling is more elegant for sure. You also get the better warranty, better (albeit more expensive) service, better resale value. The big one is also that the Camry is made in the US where the ES is made in Japan. If you drive an 02 ES and an 02 Camry, the ES still feels much more solid and rattle free. Mine still rides, drives, and looks like new even after 80k miles. I'd still do the ES350, I think its easily worth the $8k or so more. If you wanna save some money though, you might want to go drive an 06 ES330 and just see if you might agree with me about some of the interior quibbles. The 350 is definately a better looking car, and it has more features, but the interior of the 02-06 is still far superior IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buford Posted December 14, 2006 Share Posted December 14, 2006 Good points, Steve. It's a shame that our Lexus dealer is two hours away. We will probably not end up test driving the two on the same day. I would imagine that it will be easier to find an ES on the lot with the options we want than it will be to find a Camry. We went through that with the Sienna. We test drove one of the base models, but decided to wait until the dealer got one with one with more features (it wasn't a long wait, maybe a few days). It just sort of added an extra layer of complication to the process. Either way, I think we will miss the manual transmission we have in our '03 Camry. Even though it seems a little odd and inappropriate in the Camry, it's still something we have enjoyed about the car. There's always the LS. I'm not making my mind up yet, but I suspect the LS is on the wrong side of the diminishing returns slope. As fabulous as it is, I'm not sure I'll consider it worth twice the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buford Posted December 14, 2006 Share Posted December 14, 2006 Ran across these two pictures. An interesting juxtaposition. I think I like the wheels better on the Camry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rx330driver Posted December 14, 2006 Share Posted December 14, 2006 to quote swo3es, "yes....they both have headlights..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buford Posted December 14, 2006 Share Posted December 14, 2006 "yes....they both have headlights..." Touchy :whistles: I think there are more similarities than headlights. I'm not trying to drag the ES down. I'm shopping, and I'm trying to consider all my options. Don't be so defensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rx330driver Posted December 14, 2006 Share Posted December 14, 2006 sorry i should have put an emoticon there...i was joking. lol, i agree there are some similarities, but lets face it, its still a toyota...lmao Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buford Posted December 14, 2006 Share Posted December 14, 2006 but lets face it, its still a toyota...lmao Let's face it, every car that has a Toyota, Lexus or Scion badge is a Toyota. To me that's a good thing. I'm interested in the car, not the logo on the grille. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW03ES Posted December 14, 2006 Share Posted December 14, 2006 There's always the LS. I'm not making my mind up yet, but I suspect the LS is on the wrong side of the diminishing returns slope. As fabulous as it is, I'm not sure I'll consider it worth twice the money. Its worth it, it all depends on whether you want to or can spend the money for the LS. It is however worth the difference. As for the Camry and the ES, when you see them in person alongside each other in traffic, they do look very different. The Camry looks taller and shorter, more angular while the ES is smoother, longer, and lower looking. I'd never mistake one for the other. As for the wheels, if you like them bolt them on. They'll fit. As for not buying the logo on the grill, if thats the case than you probably shouldn't be looking at luxury cars. Yes obviously these cars are intrinsically better than midmarket cars, but a certain portion of the difference is in the prestige of the brand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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