Your Future Car.

[blake918]

As for LS size remember that the LS is significantly smaller than cars like the S class and 7 series, and a totally different car than the Town Car or DTS (ugh I HATE the new DTS...) Also remember the new LS will have a LWB option and will finally be in the same size class as the S class and 7 series.

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I'm not holding my breath for more head and legroom with the LWB option on the new LS. Europeans have a completely different ideaology than the Japanese as far as legroom is concerned. The '04 Saab 9-3 I sat in the other day has more head and legroom than my LS. I was really awestruck that this little tin can has acres more legroom than a car atleast 2x its size. It's really a shame that such a perfect car like the LS has a short comming for me.

I can't wait to see a DTS in person...I think it's a pretty sharp looking car from the pictures I've seen. I wonder if it just might be a little to far out there for their usual clientel. lol I forgot to add a current MB CL class to my list of possibilities since that is one of the most amazing cars in my book...CL65 AMG wow!!! B)

[SW03ES]

The problem with the new DTS is that they half assed it. It looks rediculous with the art and science front end pasted on the bulbous original doors and roof mated to the 1991 Chrysler Imperial lookalike rear end. It looks like 3 vehicles welded together, sort of like an Escalade, same deal. The Interior looks like a Crown Victoria police car with wood.

Personally I dont see the space issues you do with the LS, and none of those vehicles have ever struck me as much larger in the drivers space department than the LS...

[blake918]

Personally I dont see the space issues you do with the LS, and none of those vehicles have ever struck me as much larger in the drivers space department than the LS...

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I'm 3 or 4 inches tall than you, so I can see why! ;) lol I used to wonder what as in my head as far as which vehicle has more space than the next too, but when I'm unable to reach the pedals, that tells me something huge (excuse the pun). I can slide the seat all the way back and be unable to reach the pedals in the '03 S430 I drove...the LS430 is just not close to the seat travel a S class has...that's a shame too since the LS430's seats are truely unreal-one of the best seats I've sat in. Of any manufacture as a whole, I'd have to say Nissan is the absolute worst as far as legroom is concerned.

Crown vic with wood....

[nc211]

Oh my god, worlds have collided. For the first time in history, I have to disagree with Blake! :o I've found that my older 01' Maxima had awesome amounts of legroom, especially in the back. But I think it's the way the seats were angled, with more of your butt sitting lower into the seat. But then again, I'm only 5'10. I do think the LS needs a bit more leg room for it's size though. I don't know what my next car will be. I'd like to say an LS430, but my current 95' LS400 will have to break beyond normal repair to warrant it's replacement. So I know that'll be several more years. I'm planning on hitting at least 250k on mine. I'm thinking maybe an older Jeep Wrangler with the 4.0 engine. Maybe a 91 or so, or whatever the last year of production was before they went to the Minivan interior dashboard. I want a beater car rag top in addition to my LS. I've learned so much about automotive repair with this car that I don't fear getting my hands dirty anymore. Of course I wouldn't mind a mid 90's Toyota MR2 twin turbo, or a early 90's Nissan 300Z twin turbo either! But the "cruiser sedan" spot in my driveway has been filled, and will always be filled with an LS.

[branshew]

I might try a Mercedes next time.

←

You must be hearing the little voice:

"SW - come to the dark side."

I heard it once too. Fortunately it was pre-2000 when Benz could still build a reliable car. I thought you said somewhere where you'd rather drive a BMW or Audi over a Benz. If I was going Euro - Audi woud be my choice right now.

I'm all for the next Toyota wagon as well. Just make it better looking than the last of the Camry wagons they made.

"SW I am your father."

[Dust]

Great responses guys. Lexus it is. :)

Page 3 is mine. :P

[SW03ES]

I might try a Mercedes next time.

←

You must be hearing the little voice:

"SW - come to the dark side."

I heard it once too. Fortunately it was pre-2000 when Benz could still build a reliable car. I thought you said somewhere where you'd rather drive a BMW or Audi over a Benz. If I was going Euro - Audi woud be my choice right now.

I'm all for the next Toyota wagon as well. Just make it better looking than the last of the Camry wagons they made.

"SW I am your father."

←

LOL! I go back and forth. I think Audi and BMW make a more solidly engineered car than a Mercedes, but a Mercedes is the ultimate symbol of affluence and luxury and I'll probably wind up having one at some point.

Maybe I'll lease one for two years and see how it goes lol.

More likely than not though I'll get into an 07 LS430, or maybe a right end of model 06 LS430 if I don't care for the new one...

[jainla]

Oh my god. So much talk of Mercedes Benz. Let me lay down for a second...I can't breathe..

Actually the LS, S Class and 7 Series are more similar in size than you might think. Many comparos put them together in the same class. I remember reading somewhere that the LS430 actually has MORE interior volume than the 00-06 LWB S-class benz. The LS 400 feels a little smaller; it's the same length as the LS430 but has a smaller wheelbase.

The interior dimensions of the Benz and the LS are within spitting distance of each other, and the overall length of the LS is only about 5 inches shorter than the S. The S Class trunk is flatter, longer and tapers more than the LS, which probably accounts for part of that. It's also about 4 cu ft smaller than the LS without rear AC. The S Class nose is also a little more sculpted (pointy). While some describe the LS as looking a bit boxy, it's really a superb model of intelligent packaging of space and components. I'm 6'4", and the LS430 is plenty big inside for me, front and rear. The 95+ LS400 is good too but has a touch less headroom. I admit the S has more front seat travel, but for me it's more than I need (it also come at the expense of the rear passengers). The LS greenhouse is bigger, so it feels a little more spacious, numbers aside.

All Mercedes, even the C class, all have plenty of head and leg room for the driver, although this comes at the expense of rear seat space in the smaller cars. Remember they are designed for big German drivers.

Now the 92-99 S class is another story. They were massive cars, with more legroom and headroom than almost anything else out there at the time. For a while I really wanted one of these. However I did some research and learned that while the drivetrain is bulletproof the rest of the car is not..and very expensive to fix. There is a part of the AC system (I believe it's the evaporator) that goes on ALL W140s. The part itself is only about $300, but the labor to install it (i.e. removing the entire dashboard) will run you about $3000. THREE GRAND. Most mechanics estimate at least $1500-2000 as far as yearly maintenence to keep these beasts running. Add another $1000 or more for the V-12 models. The design is starting to look a little dated IMHO.

When they run though they are great.

The newer models are no less complex and from what I have heard somewhat less reliable. While I quite like the exterior styling the inside of these cars feels really cheap. By the end of the LA Auto Show show every year these cars are really beat up inside. The Japanese cars wear much better inside. Also they have lost some of the special 'Mercedesness' that the cars from the 80's and early 90's had. They all look like Hondas now. The C Class now looks like the TSX inside (actually the TSX I think looks better and the materials are a lot nicer).

The next gen S Class looks a little more interesting, but the COMMAND system has morphed into something resembling I-drive. Also that row of small, metal buttons on the dash looks confusing and hard to use. And no floor mounted shifter? What's up with that!? The exterior looks like the current car with some plastic fender flares tacked on. If you want a Benz that's as well made as a Lexus you'll have to look for something 93/94 or older. Those cars were built to last forever (and many of them do). If I could find a '91 560 SEL with 10,000 miles on it I might be tempted.

Audi and VW on the otherhand now make fantastic interiors. I hate the new grill but the A8 is a gorgeous car. The A6 and A4 I don't think are as distinctive, especially the latest models. Unless you opt for the V8 or turbo 6 the baseline Audis feel a little underpowered however.

On the subject of Cadillacs I drove a DTS a couple years ago in New York City for a day (the new model is basically the same platform with some cosmetic tweaks). My dad has a mid 90's STS which I don't like so I was actually quite impressed with how good the DTS was. It handles fairly well, stops and goes with verve, and looks nice inside. It drove better than the STS despite being a larger car. They are getting better. The exterior styling is still that crappy 'knife edge' theme. SW is right-- I saw a new one yesterday and it looks like Frankencar. They need to make the Sixteen show car their new styling theme and dump this creased, boxy look.

Next to the DTS however the LS feels like what you imagine a Rolls Royce to be. Everything feels precise, exact and well put together. It's significantly quieter and smoother once underway. The LS also feels a quicker and more secure when you push it hard.

Surprisingly, from what I can remember the DTS doesn't have as much front or rear legroom as the LS or the S Class, and the seats aren't as comfy (bench anyone?). Plus after five years get ready to replace the DTS's transmission, the AC unit, the ECU unit for the engine, a couple seat motors, and the rear AC fan. My dad has had the joy of doing all this (transmission was covered under warrranty however). I'm trying to talk him into an RX.

:chairshot:

I've done the Euro thing. It's cool, but it gets old--especially when little stuff starts breaking left and right and you realize you've financed your mechanic's kid's college education. Also I think these cars have bowed to the mass market and gained sales at the expense of some of their character and distinctiveness. In a couple years, when I have some cash to burn and Mercedes finally makes a car that recalls the grandeur of Mercs of old (or I win the lotto and can get the Maybach), I'll seriously consider one. Either that or one of the AMG Turbo V12 models

For now however the LS still seems the smartest choice. I'm still looking for one. And it may even be the best choice practicality aside. Check it out:

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?se...9&page_number=7

Now if we can only get those gas prices down a little....

[LexKid630]

I had an 03 S600 V-12 and i still like the LS430 better. It's just a better built car, and is meant to last, as the S is for show.

If you want to lease a Mercedes for maybe 2 or 3 years you should be fine...but i would never buy one again. They just simply don't last.

[jainla]

I agree. Like I said, Lotto here we come! I can drive the LS while the Benz is in the shop.

I think feeling the car will last a long time is part of the whole luxury experience. Someone told me once that with every generation Mercedes spends the money on new technology and takes it out off materials and manufacturing.

That said back in the day they did it right. My '81 240D has lasted amazingly well. The only car I have seen recently that approaches the materials quality of that car is the LS430. Obviously the LS is built better; but the 240 feels just as solid (lots of metal back then). The new GS is also well done inside with some artful touches (headroom not as good however). I'm curious as to what the next LS will look like. The Acuras and some of the BMWs come close. However BMWs also don't last. I had friends who's parents 750il's died within a month of each other.

:cries:

I had an 03 S600 V-12 and i still like the LS430 better. It's just a better built car, and is meant to last, as the S is for show.

If you want to lease a Mercedes for maybe 2 or 3 years you should be fine...but i would never buy one again. They just simply don't last.

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[igotnothin]

'98 GS400. I still remember the "...something wicked this way comes..." ads from back in the day. I knew that was the perfect car then. Well, 2nd best. I also remember Automobile Magazine saying that the Acura NSX was [something like] "the reason we've been building cars for the last 90 years." I was sold on those too. Not that I had the $.

Anyway, I'm glad my friend pointed out to me that the LS400 (1st Gen) is now quite affordable and built to last. Now I'm researching the GS400s.

We're going to replace my wife's '93 Honda Accord at the new year. She'll get the "old" LS400 that I'm driving now.

I get to go 0-60 in 6 seconds. ;)

[blake918]

Oh my god, worlds have collided. For the first time in history, I have to disagree with Blake! :o  I've found that my older 01' Maxima had awesome amounts of legroom, especially in the back. But I think it's the way the seats were angled, with more of your butt sitting lower into the seat. But then again, I'm only 5'10. I do think the LS needs a bit more leg room for it's size though. I don't know what my next car will be. I'd like to say an LS430, but my current 95' LS400 will have to break beyond normal repair to warrant it's replacement. So I know that'll be several more years. I'm planning on hitting at least 250k on mine. I'm thinking maybe an older Jeep Wrangler with the 4.0 engine. Maybe a 91 or so, or whatever the last year of production was before they went to the Minivan interior dashboard. I want a beater car rag top in addition to my LS. I've learned so much about automotive repair with this car that I don't fear getting my hands dirty anymore. Of course I wouldn't mind a mid 90's Toyota MR2 twin turbo, or a early 90's Nissan 300Z twin turbo either! But the "cruiser sedan" spot in my driveway has been filled, and will always be filled with an LS.

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LOL It's just my opinion, so I think the world is still ok!! :D I'm going off of Nissan's current line-up. I was truely shocked when I looked at Titans, Pathfinder Armadas, Xterras, 350z, etc. They are all tiny inside. The Titan is a massive looking vehicle, but the seat travel was severely lacking...same goes for the PA. The Altima is the only decent Nissan as far as my comfort ratings go. 300zx tt....definantly!!! B)

I admit the S has more front seat travel, but for me it's more than I need (it also come at the expense of the rear passengers). The LS greenhouse is bigger, so it feels a little more spacious, numbers aside.

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Interior dimensions, interior volume, and exterior dimensions notwithstanding, the first sentence in the above quote is the most important thing in a car to me-seat travel. I'd much rather have a little more travel than not enough! The greenhouse effect does very little for me...our ES has an absolutely superb greenhouse, but that doesn't change anything about its lack of legroom.

I was only speculating about the DeVille/DTS. I've never driven one, but I do like their style. I've driven a relative's '03 Town Car numerous times, and it's very comfortable. The 98-02 TC's dimensions weren't as good-head room is superb, but the legroom isn't too stellar. The legroom in the old W123s is great.

I had an 03 S600 V-12 and i still like the LS430 better. It's just a better built car, and is meant to last, as the S is for show.

If you want to lease a Mercedes for maybe 2 or 3 years you should be fine...but i would never buy one again. They just simply don't last.

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Your S600 was like 1-2 years old when you got rid of it and very low mileage. How do you know that it wouldn't last a while?

[SW03ES]

Oh my god. So much talk of Mercedes Benz. Let me lay down for a second...I can't breathe..

Actually the LS, S Class and 7 Series are more similar in size than you might think. Many comparos put them together in the same class.  I remember reading somewhere that the LS430 actually has MORE interior volume than the 00-06 LWB S-class benz. The LS 400 feels a little smaller; it's the same length as the LS430 but has a smaller wheelbase.

←

Not true at all.

Here are the dimensions:

Legnth:

LS430-197.4in

S500- 203.3in

750Li- 203.9in

Width:

LS430-72in

S500- 73in

750Li- 74.9in

Height:

LS430- 58.7in

S500- 56.9in

750Li- 58.4in

Wheelbase:

LS430- 115.2in

S500- 121.5in

750Li- 123.2in

Curb Weight:

LS430- 3990lbs

S500- 4170lbs

750Li- 4552lbs

Front legroom:

LS430- 44in

S500- 41.3in

750Li- 41.3in

Front shoulder room:

LS430- 58.3in

S500- 59.2in

750Li- 59.3in

Front Head room:

LS430- 38.1in

S500- 39.4in

750Li- 39.2in

Rear Legroom:

LS430- 37.6in

S500- 40.3in

750Li- 43.4in

Rear shoulder room:

LS430- 58.2in

S500- 58.3in

750Li- 58.9in

Rear Head room:

LS430- 37.9in

S500- 38.8in

750Li- 38.5in

Trunk capacity:

LS430- 20.2 cuft

S500- 15.4 cuft

750Li- 18 cuft

As you can see its clear that both the S500 and the 750Li are significantly longer than the LS430 and that most of that size difference is concentrated in the back seat. Don't underestimate the inch of so added to front headroom and shoulder room, for a tall driver that can be a HUGE difference.

They use the LS in comperos against the S and the 7 because they're all flagship cars. People who are looking at LWB BMW, Benz, and Audi sedans don't cross shop the LS430 though because its just not big enough.

Think about it this way, if it didnt cost Lexus sales why would they be bringing out a LWB model?

[90LS400Lexus]

Agreed. As I mentioned in another topic, when the A/C went out on my aunts 95' Mercedes S500, it cost them $2800 to have it repaired. It did not require dash removal however. I think it was something else that went out.

I also agree that they are built like tanks, but the electrical systems can have a lot of glitches on the 92+ S-Class.

Now the 92-99 S class is another story. They were massive cars, with more legroom and headroom than almost anything else out there at the time. For a while I really wanted one of these. However I did some research and learned that while the drivetrain is bulletproof the rest of the car is not..and very expensive to fix. There is a part of the AC system (I believe it's the evaporator) that goes on ALL W140s. The part itself is only about $300, but the labor to install it (i.e. removing the entire dashboard) will run you about $3000. THREE GRAND. Most mechanics estimate at least $1500-2000 as far as yearly maintenence to keep these beasts running. Add another $1000 or more for the V-12 models. The design is starting to look a little dated IMHO.

When they run though they are great.

[Dust]

Excellent posts from all. This is exactly what I wanted to hear from you guys, the comparisons between top luxury cars and what is competition out there. What has its advantages and disadvantages. Another plus in near future for me. Thanks for the information, you guys are the best. :)

[choiboyogg]

ill be picking up a 2000-2003 honda s2000. i think it will be the perfect companion car for the ls400.

i have my work car and i have my fun car!

[W201 sweden]

What do you think of a diesel-powered Lexus? In Europe (but not here in Sweden) diesel cars have a very strong position. In some countries, I'd say close to 50%

of all passenger cars are diesel powered.

A GS D4D anyone? ;) Or an LS 380d? :o

/Alexander

[dcfish]

What do you think of a diesel-powered Lexus? In Europe (but not here in Sweden) diesel cars have a very strong position. In some countries, I'd say close to 50%

of all passenger cars are diesel powered.

A GS D4D anyone? ;) Or an LS 380d? :o

/Alexander

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/11/17/beijing...w-red-flag-hq3/ It certainly looks world class.

[sv7887]

All of these cars are expensive to fix when they get old. My Power Steering system on my LS400 cost me well over $1,600 to fix. The O2 sensors just went and that cost $800. It just goes with the territory. I don't think "any" of these high end cars are made to last 20 yrs like those 70-80's Benzes were.

Most people don't own their cars for long durations anymore. Look at any Mercedes or Lexus dealer and you'll see tons of traded in 3-4 yr old cars. As soon as the model changes, most just trade them. My dad has a practice of trading in cars as soon as it gets near the end of the warranty. Even our past LS430's weren't as good as the LS400 when it came to issues.

I just leased a E Class (E350 4Matic) and it's a nice car. It doesn't have the bank vault feel of my LS400, but it has some interesting safety features and technology. It brakes and handles better than my LS400. But the LS400 rides like a dream and is the quietest car I've ever had. The engine performance is pretty close. The 4Matic is going to be useful in winter. The highway performance is extraordinary. The Nanotech paint on the Benz is great. The Navigation isn't as good as a modern Lexus one. The Germans need some lessons from the Japanese in that regard. I wouldn't be surprised if I had issues with this car, but it doesn't bother me. It's nice to drive. Besides, I have the LS if something breaks.

People at work are making fun of me for still driving my LS even though I have a new MB...They don't understand, you can't buy cars like this anymore. I had the LS up to 85 MPH the other. Still can't hear a thing. Stereo is great, I can't even tell the difference between the LS's and the Harman Kardon in the Benz. And this is almost a 15 yr old car!

I was thinking about a GS but the Lexus salesmen really ticked me off. When I told them I was considering a E Class they started to slam the car and even went so far to claim if the car broke under warranty I would have to pay to fix it. You shouldn't have to slam the competition to sell your car. They are Lexus salesmen, the car should sell itself. I really wanted to get a Lexus, but their attitude really put me off.

They were arrogant and rude. They didn't seem to care that we were long time Lexus customers. I got the same attitude from the Service Dept a few weeks ago when I had the O2 sensors done. They didn't give a damn, despite my spending $5,000 in service alone this past year! I think the Boston area dealers are getting too arrogant for their good. I wished I had a top notch Lexus dealer around like Ray Catena and the like.

It'll be interesting to see what the next Lexus cars look like. I saw the LS460, it's a nice car, but I wished the design had some more flair to it. It's understated but a little bland. The S550 is bold, but I think it looks weird with the wheel flares. The A8 is a nice looking car though. I wonder what the next generation Jaguars are going to look like.

This is a good thread!

Sam

Agreed. As I mentioned in another topic, when the A/C went out on my aunts 95' Mercedes S500, it cost them $2800 to have it repaired. It did not require dash removal however. I think it was something else that went out.

I also agree that they are built like tanks, but the electrical systems can have a lot of glitches on the 92+ S-Class.

Now the 92-99 S class is another story. They were massive cars, with more legroom and headroom than almost anything else out there at the time. For a while I really wanted one of these. However I did some research and learned that while the drivetrain is bulletproof the rest of the car is not..and very expensive to fix. There is a part of the AC system (I believe it's the evaporator) that goes on ALL W140s. The part itself is only about $300, but the labor to install it (i.e. removing the entire dashboard) will run you about $3000. THREE GRAND. Most mechanics estimate at least $1500-2000 as far as yearly maintenence to keep these beasts running. Add another $1000 or more for the V-12 models. The design is starting to look a little dated IMHO.

When they run though they are great.

[nc211]

Sam, you gotta' quit taking the LS to the dealership man. I cringe at those repair figure$ :cries:

I think I've pretty much decided my next car will be the LS430. Probably an 02 or 03. I don't know yet, can't quite read that far out. Although, the depreciation hits on the 02+ Q45's are pretty tough to ignore. That sure is a lot car for the money. I don't think I'm quite ready to take on the Germans yet. Mechanical I can handle, but electrical just scares me. Too spooky to diagnoise for my diy skill set. I'd much rather turn a wrench, than an electrical thingy-ma-jingy.

Ideally, it would be a 2006 LS430, silver, and loaded! Except for air suspension.

I don't know, just depends on the avalaible funds when that time comes. I've just now got my career out of 2nd gear, into 3rd, and the road ahead looks pretty darn good. So who knows....

[blake918]

What do you think of a diesel-powered Lexus? In Europe (but not here in Sweden) diesel cars have a very strong position. In some countries, I'd say close to 50%

of all passenger cars are diesel powered.

A GS D4D anyone? ;) Or an LS 380d? :o

/Alexander

I really wish we got them here. Instead they stick us with hybrids. :( I've read about the IS220d, and I keep wondering why we don't get them here. I think my next car will be a diesel, probably an E320 CDI. It's fast, efficient, spacious, and gorgeous. After a pleasurable day of driving in a relative's 320 CDI, I'll certainly check it out when it's time for a new car in a couple years. I'm still drawn to the Caddy DTS and Town Car because I'm an odd duck and LOVE bench seats and cars that really float down the highway.

[SW03ES]

All of these cars are expensive to fix when they get old. My Power Steering system on my LS400 cost me well over $1,600 to fix. The O2 sensors just went and that cost $800. It just goes with the territory. I don't think "any" of these high end cars are made to last 20 yrs like those 70-80's Benzes were.

I gotta agree with nc, your LS is far too old for you to spend dealership service rates to service it, find a good independent mechanic.

Most people don't own their cars for long durations anymore. Look at any Mercedes or Lexus dealer and you'll see tons of traded in 3-4 yr old cars. As soon as the model changes, most just trade them. My dad has a practice of trading in cars as soon as it gets near the end of the warranty. Even our past LS430's weren't as good as the LS400 when it came to issues.

This is because of the popularity of leasing luxury cars. All the 3-4 year old cars are lease returns. If you look at actual market statistics people are keeping cars LONGER now than ever before. Loan terms keep increasing as resale value increases, the average loan term now is 5 years vs 3 years only 10-15 years

I was thinking about a GS but the Lexus salesmen really ticked me off. When I told them I was considering a E Class they started to slam the car and even went so far to claim if the car broke under warranty I would have to pay to fix it. You shouldn't have to slam the competition to sell your car. They are Lexus salesmen, the car should sell itself. I really wanted to get a Lexus, but their attitude really put me off.

Unfortunately poor salesman are everywhere. All the dealers are independently owned so Lexus has little if any control over this. Being in sales I agree with you, the first rule of effective selling is to never put down your competition, but I've met terrible car salespeople from virtually every make.

[sv7887]

Thanks for your post. I did finally find an independent who works on these cars. I'll take it to him next time something breaks.

Your comment on the ownership duration intrigues me. Do more people lease these high end cars? And do owners of luxury cars tend to hold on to them longer? I've been wondering how people have reacted to the increasing amounts of "gimmicks" in all of these high end cars. The LS460's and S550's are filled with all sorts of gadgets. I can't imagine them holding up as well my comparably "ancient" LS400 did over a 14 yr period.

You're right about leasing. Mercedes gave me a pretty good deal on my E Class. You're also right about bad salesmen being everywhere. The Boston area Lexus dealers used to be great. I remember when my dad bought his first LS 11 yrs ago, it was one of the best experiences we've had. I just think these particular dealerships have gotten too cocky for their own good. Maybe I should go out of state next time I'm looking for a car.

The Benz dealerships were like that too, but I think their recent struggles have humbled them a little. Their service guys still have an attitude problem. Actually the best experience I've had was with a Jaguar dealer. I really wanted to get my hands on an older XJ, but the car felt like an antique after sitting in the GS and E Class.

-Sam

All of these cars are expensive to fix when they get old. My Power Steering system on my LS400 cost me well over $1,600 to fix. The O2 sensors just went and that cost $800. It just goes with the territory. I don't think "any" of these high end cars are made to last 20 yrs like those 70-80's Benzes were.

I gotta agree with nc, your LS is far too old for you to spend dealership service rates to service it, find a good independent mechanic.

Most people don't own their cars for long durations anymore. Look at any Mercedes or Lexus dealer and you'll see tons of traded in 3-4 yr old cars. As soon as the model changes, most just trade them. My dad has a practice of trading in cars as soon as it gets near the end of the warranty. Even our past LS430's weren't as good as the LS400 when it came to issues.

This is because of the popularity of leasing luxury cars. All the 3-4 year old cars are lease returns. If you look at actual market statistics people are keeping cars LONGER now than ever before. Loan terms keep increasing as resale value increases, the average loan term now is 5 years vs 3 years only 10-15 years

I was thinking about a GS but the Lexus salesmen really ticked me off. When I told them I was considering a E Class they started to slam the car and even went so far to claim if the car broke under warranty I would have to pay to fix it. You shouldn't have to slam the competition to sell your car. They are Lexus salesmen, the car should sell itself. I really wanted to get a Lexus, but their attitude really put me off.

Unfortunately poor salesman are everywhere. All the dealers are independently owned so Lexus has little if any control over this. Being in sales I agree with you, the first rule of effective selling is to never put down your competition, but I've met terrible car salespeople from virtually every make.

[SW03ES]

Thanks for your post. I did finally find an independent who works on these cars. I'll take it to him next time something breaks.

That will literally cut your repair costs down to 1/3rd.

Your comment on the ownership duration intrigues me. Do more people lease these high end cars? And do owners of luxury cars tend to hold on to them longer? I've been wondering how people have reacted to the increasing amounts of "gimmicks" in all of these high end cars. The LS460's and S550's are filled with all sorts of gadgets. I can't imagine them holding up as well my comparably "ancient" LS400 did over a 14 yr period.

Absolutely more people lease these cars than buy them. In all honesty I don't think it makes sense to purchase a new car of this price bracket because of the awesome amount of depreciation. Even though the 3 year end value of an LS460 is 59% (which is very good) and the 3 year end value of a Camry is about the same, thats a hit of $28,560 on the LS and a hit of only $11,340 on the Camry.

You're right about leasing. Mercedes gave me a pretty good deal on my E Class. You're also right about bad salesmen being everywhere. The Boston area Lexus dealers used to be great. I remember when my dad bought his first LS 11 yrs ago, it was one of the best experiences we've had. I just think these particular dealerships have gotten too cocky for their own good. Maybe I should go out of state next time I'm looking for a car.

They very well may have.

[jainla]

Your comment on the ownership duration intrigues me. Do more people lease these high end cars? And do owners of luxury cars tend to hold on to them longer?

More than half of all cars costing $30,000 or more are leased, and as you approach the $70,000 mark I bet that number gets substantially higher. I bet it's a combination of people wanting to drive a nicer car for the same monthly payment, not wanting to hold on to complicated cars for too long, and certain tax advantages that leasing has over purchasing; particularly if you own your own business or your company is providing you with a car.

With most luxury cars its been my observation that if they are purchased people hold on to them for a while; but it could be that these kind of people (who purchase rather than lease) just tend to hold on to everything until it dies (I admit I fall into this category) .

Otherwise most people who lease them just lease another one. There are certain advantages to leasing; i.e. convenience; the opportunity to drive drive something new every few years, and the fact that your car never really gets old enough to need major maintainence. But financially unless the tax advantages are compelling buying a car and just holding onto it will until it dies almost always comes out better in the end. I guess it depends where you are in life and what your priorities are.

I've been wondering how people have reacted to the increasing amounts of "gimmicks" in all of these high end cars. The LS460's and S550's are filled with all sorts of gadgets. I can't imagine them holding up as well my comparably "ancient" LS400 did over a 14 yr period.

More things on a car does in fact mean more things to break. But the LS seems to be holding up well; and every year the number of defects per car in the Initial Quality survey goes down, so they are getting better at building them. As for (extremely) long term reliability the quality and frequence of the maintenance is also a factor. The boards on Audiworld and Benzworld are full of things you expect to be broken on 3 and 4 year old cars though....to my knowledge we don't 'expect' anything on a Lexus to be broken at that time.

I agree though that as much as I love my LS I don't know if it will still keep going after 26 years like my old MB does.

You're right about leasing. Mercedes gave me a pretty good deal on my E Class. You're also right about bad salesmen being everywhere. The Boston area Lexus dealers used to be great. I remember when my dad bought his first LS 11 yrs ago, it was one of the best experiences we've had. I just think these particular dealerships have gotten too cocky for their own good. Maybe I should go out of state next time I'm looking for a car.

You could try it; that destination charge you pay means they pretty much can drop-ship the car anywhere you are. It doesn't have to be the dealership that sells you the car.

I read an article online somewhere (Businessweek maybe) that says that car dealers are just having a tough time in general right now. More educated consumers means that they have less margin to hide in when negotiating price; declining sales of domestic brands are hurting dealerships that sell those cars; and the rise of internet retailers is also putting pressure on margins. Most dealers make far more on service than they do on sales; and selling the most reliable cars means Lexus dealers can't overbill corporate for nearly as many repairs as MB and BMW currently can. :P

Mercedes does have great lease deals from time to time b/c their cars have a high residual value at the end of the lease (as to Lexus, Acura and BMW); I never can tell how they determine this value because it's almost always less than the cars fetch on the open market. I would only lease an MB b/c at this point I wouldn't want to own one not under warranty.

Lexus refuses to build many more dealerships b/c they want to protect the investment of the original owners. Lexus dealers have some of the highest per-dealership sales and service volumes in the country. My dealership is a complete zoo everytime I go over there; so their attitude could just be a function of them being absolutely slammed with customers. 11 years ago there were less customers but probably almost the same number of dealerships.

The Benz dealerships were like that too, but I think their recent struggles have humbled them a little. Their service guys still have an attitude problem. Actually the best experience I've had was with a Jaguar dealer. I really wanted to get my hands on an older XJ, but the car felt like an antique after sitting in the GS and E Class.

Yes Jaguar is desperately in need of customers. Ford has spent a fortune on it and it's STILL not making any money.

My MB dealership experience was ok, not great. The rep was really pushy, and told me he needed to sell another car to get his bonus that month (huh?).

The Lexus guys were friendlier but I don't know if they took me seriously (Acura apparently did not; I walked out of the dealership after waiting 20 minutes to drive a car). The Lexus guys 10 years ago were fantastic; they never asked for a license or any insurance information they just gave you the keys and said go. Back then they were not the #1 selling luxury brand so they had something to prove....not not so much it seems.