chimchim Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 I'm pretty outraged right now. I was changing a wheel today and using the stock lug wrench from the trunk on the stock locking nut (front left tire) with my hands and THE *%*^^& LUG NUT BROKE!!! Two shards broke off and now I can get the nut off. I'm going to Lexus tomorrow to make them remove and replace it. I have 24k miles on the car. This is ridiculous. 2004 RX330 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obsidianr Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 I'm pretty outraged right now.I was changing a wheel today and using the stock lug wrench from the trunk on the stock locking nut (front left tire) with my hands and THE *%*^^& LUG NUT BROKE!!! Two shards broke off and now I can get the nut off. I'm going to Lexus tomorrow to make them remove and replace it. I have 24k miles on the car. This is ridiculous. ← I've had this happen to me on 3 of their lug nuts. Although, it never prevented me from putting on / removing a nut. Each time, the dealership replaced them for free. This only happens when we use the lug wrench. I'm considering just replacing all of the locking nuts with the regular ones so I don't run into a problem like yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RX in NC Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 Stock Lexus lug nuts are actually better than many others out there. The worst I've ever owned were the factory lug nuts on our former Grand Cherokees, my former Durango, and my current Ram. They were the two-piece acorn style and would come apart if you just looked at them funny. Total garbage. I replaced them with solid chrome lug nuts from McGard, the best lug nut company that I know of. I believe you can check them out at www.mcgard.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKperformance Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 What car and year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimchim Posted August 8, 2005 Author Share Posted August 8, 2005 2004 RX330 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DomLee Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 Just thought I would ask. Was any anti-seize ever applied on the threads? This helps w/ ensuring that the threads don't strip...causing the stud to break (or in this case, the nut). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnynctry Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 Or someone put them on with an air wrench. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimchim Posted August 9, 2005 Author Share Posted August 9, 2005 Or someone put them on with an air wrench. ← I'm suspecting this was the real problem... the last person to touch our lug nuts was a Lexus dealer when they rotated the tires. No antisieze was on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKperformance Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 You don't apply anti seize to wheel studs. It was over torqued by an air wrench. Nothign else would cause them to need more torque than its breaking point otherwise. Take it to them and tell them to replace them, you need a toyota spec nut wether oem or aftermarket to fit the base of the rims bolt seat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowtie3 Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 You don't apply anti seize to wheel studs.It was over torqued by an air wrench. Nothign else would cause them to need more torque than its breaking point otherwise. Take it to them and tell them to replace them, you need a toyota spec nut wether oem or aftermarket to fit the base of the rims bolt seat. ← You should ALWAYS use anti-seize on wheel-studs, or anytime steel is used with ALUMINUM ! [ such as spark plugs ] I realize that the wheel-nuts and wheel-studs are not aluminum but you'll probably never experience what you just went through [ when torqued correctly ] after using anti-seize. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKperformance Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 WHo told you to use antiseize on a wheel stud? If you want you can add it to the hub assembly but NEVER the studs and bolts, can you guess why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booyah Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Funny this came up! I have the Mcgaurd locknuts on my toyota 4-runner and I was "going" to take off my rear wheel to look at the brakes and guess what--I broke the damn locknut myself using the lugnut wrentch. It broke into 2 pieces all around the locking pattern. Im going to go use an air wrench tomorrow and I think I can still get it off! I hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lenore Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 WHo told you to use antiseize on a wheel stud?If you want you can add it to the hub assembly but NEVER the studs and bolts, can you guess why? ← The use of antiseize is okay, but I prefer polymolybodium disulfide grease, just a little jab will do. The proper torque applied with a torque wrench is an absolute necessity. Lexus probably used a air wrench to tighten the bolts then used a torque wrench, but the nuts were aready too tight and the wrench clicked and gave a false reading. Typical idiot grease monkeys at most dealerships. Antiseize is used properly where high temps lock metals together. I found no problem in its use on the studs when used sparingly. Just keep it away from the disk pads and rotor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgr7 Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 No anti seize and no oil on any bolt that requires a torque wrench as it will cause you to over torque the bolt due to reduced friction. The torque spec is for a dry clean bolt. This might cause some of you to cringe but spark plugs should also be put in dry and if you can remove them with an impact gun for a quick release from the full torqued position. This will keep you from striping the alum heads. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsalih Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 jgr7 is correct, you will over tighten the lug nuts if you lubricate them with ANYTHING at all. You must compensate the torque value by reducing it by 15% (from what I've read on this subject). The only approved lubricant I've seen is the one that McGard calls out which is greaseless oil LPS-1 (they sell it at ACE). There are however many people that I know of that have used anti-seize (for over 20 yr) without ever having a lug nut come loose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKperformance Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Glad to see there are some members with knowledge not just an opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lenore Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Glad to see there are some members with knowledge not just an opinion. ← To achieve the proper torque with never seize you would multiply the foot lbs force by 1.17 x 0.80 giving the proper torque. The bad thing about dry threads besides coatings, rust, etc is that the torque can be very inaccurate from one fastener to another. Cleaning and lubing gives consistancey. So if the specified torque were 106 ft lbs. a lubed fastener would be torque at 99 ft lbs.The proper torque on a fastener is to put enough stress in the bolt to be 70% of the minimum tensile stress after you tighten the nut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgr7 Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 lenore, would the multiplier change with bolt length and diameter? I know on the head bolts of Cadillac Northstar engines the proper way to torque the head bolts is clean dry bolts lube the washer and underside of bolt head, then torque to 22ft lbs + 180 degrees, you go 90 degrees then 90 degrees again to equal 180 degrees. This put the proper loading on the threads. Some people are even of the belief that once important bolts are torqued up and put in stressful applications they should not be reused. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lenore Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 lenore, would the multiplier change with bolt length and diameter? I know on the head bolts of Cadillac Northstar engines the proper way to torque the head bolts is clean dry bolts lube the washer and underside of bolt head, then torque to 22ft lbs + 180 degrees, you go 90 degrees then 90 degrees again to equal 180 degrees. This put the proper loading on the threads. Some people are even of the belief that once important bolts are torqued up and put in stressful applications they should not be reused. Jeff ← The factor is according to my specs compensates for those factors. Remember their are also degrees of tolerance on the torque wrenches and since you are only loading to 70% of the torgque load it is not necessary to go further. Factors which also could affect the torque are the number of threads per inch, and the washers and bolt head size. Frankly most mechanics out there probably never even have their torque wrenches calibrated. But the consistancy of the same torque on all bolts in a specific area such as the head, or wheel hub is the most important factor. I know most bolts used in the modern engines are supposedly throw away after one use because of the tensil stretch factor after the initial tightening. Mercedes absolutely uses this as a guage of performance. Now the old Bristish cars that I used to work on, well who cares. The bolts were fine, and just required inspection for damage. However that was when you retorqued the heads after running the engine for a few hundred miles. The modern head gaskets and stretch design of the new bolts made this obsolete. Mercedes manuals tell you to apply a light lube of wd40 so that the bolts move freely to reach their torque. That formula is supposed to compensate for all factors. When I see failure of bolts or nuts at dealerships, it is probably because of some knucklehead too much in a rush, with the air wratchet, or gun and doesn't bring the nut up snug, then use a torque wrench. Watch them sometimes, its amusing to watch Lexus mechanics take the short cut to get the car back out the door for the hourly flat rate and meet his service supervisors statistics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lenore Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 lenore, would the multiplier change with bolt length and diameter? I know on the head bolts of Cadillac Northstar engines the proper way to torque the head bolts is clean dry bolts lube the washer and underside of bolt head, then torque to 22ft lbs + 180 degrees, you go 90 degrees then 90 degrees again to equal 180 degrees. This put the proper loading on the threads. Some people are even of the belief that once important bolts are torqued up and put in stressful applications they should not be reused. Jeff ← The factor is according to my specs compensates for those factors. Remember their are also degrees of tolerance on the torque wrenches and since you are only loading to 70% of the torgque load it is not necessary to go further. Factors which also could affect the torque are the number of threads per inch, and the washers and bolt head size. Frankly most mechanics out there probably never even have their torque wrenches calibrated. But the consistancy of the same torque on all bolts in a specific area such as the head, or wheel hub is the most important factor. I know most bolts used in the modern engines are supposedly throw away after one use because of the tensil stretch factor after the initial tightening. Mercedes absolutely uses this as a guage of performance. Now the old Bristish cars that I used to work on, well who cares. The bolts were fine, and just required inspection for damage. However that was when you retorqued the heads after running the engine for a few hundred miles. The modern head gaskets and stretch design of the new bolts made this obsolete. Mercedes manuals tell you to apply a light lube of wd40 so that the bolts move freely to reach their torque. That formula is supposed to compensate for all factors. When I see failure of bolts or nuts at dealerships, it is probably because of some knucklehead too much in a rush, with the air wratchet, or gun and doesn't bring the nut up snug, then use a torque wrench. Watch them sometimes, its amusing to watch Lexus mechanics take the short cut to get the car back out the door for the hourly flat rate and meet his service supervisors statistics. ← By the way I too have seen that torque technique of bringing the bolts to 22 ft lbs and then 180 degrees, then another 180 degrees. Those are the sequences on the newer style of head bolts and I am sure the engineers have found that the head gasket seats better under that set of operations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimchim Posted August 12, 2005 Author Share Posted August 12, 2005 Resolution: So I brought it to the dealer and with a little assertiveness they agreed to replace the nut for free (with a regular nut). I now run with no lock nuts in the fronts (2WD) and lock nuts in the rear. I'm hoping that if people want to steal rims, they want a full set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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