Where Is The Oil Warning Light? Why Does My Car Use So Much Oil?

[SWheat]

I have an 07 IS350 that I purchased new. I changed the oil at 1000 miles and put in Mobil1.

I added a quart at 12000 miles and changed the oil again at 13147. I drained just over 6 quarts and added 7 replacement quarts (mobile 1 15k).

This week I changed the oil again at 21340 miles - I was absolutely horrified when I twisted the oil filter and drained less than 1 quart!! I looked everywhere for a sign of a leak - there is not a drop of oil anywhere under the car.

Firstly, I want to know why is there no warning light for low oil pressure?? The MAINTENANCE message came on every 3k miles but I dismissed it because I am using 15k oil. Yes, I realize I should check the oil dipstick but I had no idea I could burn as much oil as I did and not receive a WARNING. Is it unreasonable to expect a car that tells me when one of my wheels looses traction to have something as basic as a low oil pressure warning indicator?

Second, why is this car using so much oil? Is this normal? I still own a toyota truck that goes 15k between oil changes (synthetic) and uses about a quart.

[SWheat]

Update: I did a bit more digging in the manual: Page 344 of the manual says "Low oil pressure" should appear on the warning screen if oil pressure is too low. This warning never came on in my car and I was driving with less than a quart of (synthetic) oil. If a warning had come on I would have pulled to the side of the road and walked to a store to buy oil.

I am pretty disappointed with Lexus right now. The reason I bought the car is so I don't have to deal with car maintenance in addition to all the other busy work I have to do. The car is not a toy for me.

[gordonw]

I suggest you also look at p275. If you're using 6qts for 15k, that comes out to 1qt every 2500miles, which is almost normal. With todays high compression motors, some oil consumption is normal, even on new cars. Generally half a quart to a quart every 3 thousand miles would be normal.

[1990LS400]

Your IS350 is not a toy? Wow, I thought that's what they mainly are!

Well ... I think the oil could have been lost in only two ways -- leakage or out the tail pipe.

Was the oil lost in a week or two after you last checked the oil level or did you drive 8,000 miles without checking the oil level?

I was surprised recently to learn that Lexus does not sanction a 7,500 mile oil change interval on its newer cars -- only 5,000 miles regardless of whether or not synthetic oil is used even though far longer oil change intervals are specified in other markets. When making a warranty claim for engine damage, one would likely be expected to produce documentation that the engine was serviced in accordance with the maintenance schedule.

Consider taking you car to an indie repair shop for an evaluation -- don't know if you want to have a Lexus dealer know what has happened. A decent shop can put an additive in the oil and use a black light to check for leakage. A compression test might be in order to see if there is cylinder wall/piston ring damage.

Even though I don't think I've had to add oil between changes to any car in more than 20 years, I still check all fluid levels weekly in an early Sunday morning ritual. It takes perhaps 15 - 30 minutes for both cars -- about the only fluids that ever need topping up are windshield washer fluid and battery distilled water. I also check and check and correct tire pressures every couple weeks -- more often if there has been a big swing in temperatures.

[SWheat]

GordonW: Thank you for the manual reference. The manual says a max of 1.1 quarts every 600 miles. Is that a misprint? That seems completely out of range. A quart every 6000 miles, as you stated, seems much more reasonable.

>>Even though I don't think I've had to add oil between changes to any car in more than 20 years.

Thank you 1990LS400. I wish I had the time and discipline you have. So….do you change your oil about every 600 miles also? If I did that I would be changing my oil approximately every four days.

[ksJoe]

Is it unreasonable to expect a car that tells me when one of my wheels looses traction to have something as basic as a low oil pressure warning indicator?

Are you assuming that if you're a quart low the oil pressure is slightly reduced; two quarts low and its lower yet; 3 quarts low and its even lower?

It doesn't work that way.

As long as the oil pump can suck a steady supply of oil... The pressure will be fairly consistent. It will increase/decrease some with the engine's RPM, be a little lower when the engine is warm vs. cold, etc. But overall it will be very steady. You'll see no difference in oil pressure by being a quart low.

When the oil pump sucks air, your pressure goes to 0, and the engine will fry very quick.

On an old high mileage engine, with a worn oil pump, sometimes it won't pump enough anymore. Then the oil light may come on at idle (regardless of how full it is).

If you only got 1 quart out of it, I'm surprised it didn't fry the engine. That quart of oil is probably in very bad shape. The oil wouldn't get a chance to cool off in the sump, so the oil temp was probably way to high.

I assume you've already thrown out the oil? It would be interesting to send a sample in for analysis and see how bad it is...

[SWheat]

Yes I expected a light to come on when it sucked air (I don't pretend to be a mechanic but I understand some basic stuff). As I said, if that light had come on I would have pulled over immediately.

I also am shocked the car even starts now. Fact is, it runs fine, has as much pickup as it ever did. It does not blow one bit of smoke, nor has it ever. On the day I changed the oil I drove 180 miles, 85+ mph all the way. Never got a warning, never overheated, no sign of any kind there was anything wrong. I am really in wait-and-see mode right now. If I took it to the dealer is there a way they could test it for damage?

[ksJoe]

If it sucked air, the light should have / would have come on.

If it was not getting any oil, the engine would fry very quickly. I would guess in 15 miles, give or take 15. But I've never tried it, so I don't know :)

This is just a guess, but since you didn't have the oil light come on, I'd guess you never sucked air. The pump probably sucks the oil from very low in the oil pan, and it probably always had oil to suck. If that's the case, that would explain how you only got one quart out, but the engine isn't destroyed.

Why are you saying it was a quart? Did you measure it, or are you guessing? I have a hard time judging how much is coming out when its coming out, so if you're just guessing, maybe its more like 2?

The dealer can check compression, but I doubt there would be a problem there. I would expect the damage, if any, is in the main & rod bearings, and camshaft. I've not looked closely at the valve covers on mine, but it may not be a lot of work to pull them off and look at the cam.

Do you still have the oil you took out? If so, you can send it a lab for analysis. Its only about $25. They give you back a report on how much metal is in it, how much life the oil has in it, etc. Blackstone is one I've heard people use: http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

[SWheat]

Unfortunately I gave the oil to the auto store where I buy oil. I am certain it was less than a quart because I poured it in the new oil bottle so I could take it back to the auto store.

What you say about 15 miles is consistent with everything I've always heard about keeping oil in the car. I am amazed I have a running car right now.

I am carrying two quarts in the trunk. I'll be checking the oil every couple of days. I am pretty annoyed with that. I've never had to babysit any car I've owned like that.

One more thing...I wrote I drove 180 miles the day I changed the oil... I drove that distance BEFORE I added oil... The oil light never came on. Unbelievable.

[1990LS400]

Thank you 1990LS400. I wish I had the time and discipline you have. So….do you change your oil about every 600 miles also? If I did that I would be changing my oil approximately every four days.

No, I change the oil in both are cars at 5,000 using Mobil 1 synthetic oil. There has never been a detectable drop in oil level between oil changes on either of our cars during 102,500 miles (98 Camry) and 105,000 miles (00 LS400). There was never a detectable drop in oil level between oil changes in the 13 1/2 years / 183,500 miles of driving our 1990 LS400. Even my Mercedes diesel with it's super high 20 to 1 compression didn't use oil between changes until it had way over 100,000 miles on its original engine.

From what I've seen over the past 40+ years of car ownership, manufacturer's the oil consumption figures are worst case scenarios.

The owners manuals for both our Toyota and Lexus cars recommend checking the engine oil level every time the car is refueled. What does your owners manual say? If you don't want to check your oil, consider taking your car to a full service gas station. Full service gas stations around here do a thriving business - particularly with women and senior citizens.

[SWheat]

My experience has been roughly consistent with yours Jim – Except all the cars I have ever owned have burned some oil as might be expected. The lex takes seven quarts (vs. my truck which takes 4.5) so I thought if I use good oil and change it about halfway through it’s useful life it should be OK if I’m a quart low when I change it. I hardly expected the thing to be bone dry.

The 1.1 qt./600 mile burn rate in the manual seems way out of line. Even though it is a max it seems completely off the map.

I don’t think there is a full service station to be found anywhere in So. Cal. Seriously - I’ve not seen one in twenty years. Not that I’m actually looking for one…… when I get old I’m moving to Kansas!! :D

Thanks for the reply.

[ksJoe]

One more question – what did that quart of oil look like? Did it look normal, or was it nasty? When you do an oil change, not all of it comes out. If the old oil looked really bad, you might ought to change it again soon (give enough time for the new oil to clean things up).

Since you're asking about the dealer checking for damage... After you put a couple thousand miles on the new oil, I suggest you send a sample off for analysis.

I see 3 general possibilities:

1 – no damage at all.

2 – more wear than normal, for example maybe the engine will only last 200,000 miles instead of 300,000.

3 – severe wear, and its days are numbered.

I doubt its #3, but the oil analysis will give you a clue if it is. I've never sent a sample off for analysis myself. The ones I've read online have personalized comments and advice in them. I suggest when you send in the sample explain what happened, and that you don't have a sample from the previous oil. But you're looking for signs of engine damage now. If that sample has abnormally high metal content, thats a bad sign. If you explain what happened, they can give you some good advice.

To get a sample without draining all the oil, loosen the filter cap and catch in a clean container.

[SWheat]

Everytime I change my oil I look at it, looking for something, but what it is I dont know. This oil was just black. I remember when I changed the oil at 1000 miles, it was just as black. I'm sure if I was a mechanic I could spot something.

Honestly I did not spend a lot of time looking at the oil. The fact that there was less than a quart in there was all I needed know that something was not right.

I checked the oil today after a 110 mile trip. I let the car sit for over four hours before checking it. The oil level on the dipstick is way up over the dots. I checked it a couple times, each time cleaning the dipstick but I cannot get a reading.

I have noticed this before - it is very difficult to get a reading. At least I know there is oil in the car.

You may be thinking there is too much oil, and that I did not drain the oil properly last time. I don't think that is the case: 1.) I changed the oil with the car on a level surface, jacked slightly on the passenger side, 2.) I changed the filter (oil cap all the way off) 3.) The oil is still clean enough that even I can tell it is new. I cleaned the dipstick with a white napkin and looked at the oil.

I may take your suggestion and send off a sample. However, if I need to add a quart in 1000 miles I think I'll already have an answer. I don't think the car should use that much oil. But I'm not a mechanic and my thinking is based on my experience with other cars, not high compression cars as you say the lexus is. Do you really think it is ok if the car uses as much oil as the manual says it should? I think the manual is far enough off the mark to make me question if it is a typo.

I appreciate your replies, ksJoe.

[ksJoe]

Are you using 5w20 or 5w30? The manual for my 06 IS350 says to use 5w30, but Lexus issued a TSB saying 5w20 is ok. The 5w30 should be a little less prone to consumption (not that either should be consumed...)

One other thought, you could try using a good conventional oil instead of synthetic. There is a lot of debate about this, and many people are adamant that synthetic oil is not more prone to consumption. But I've seen several people report seeing more oil consumed with synthetic than conventional. IMO, synthetic is probably more prone to consumption under some circumstances, or in some engines. Just something else to try.

I doubt the manual is a misprint. The drive train warranty is 70,000 miles. If driven hard or abused, the engine could be pretty worn by then. If the consumption exceeds what they say is ok, they'd probably have to rebuild the engine under warranty. So that spec is probably the threshold for the engine being screwed beyond its useful life, rather than a normal or good amount of consumption.

Its possible this didn't really hurt anything. It sounds like it never sucked air, so it always had enough oil. The problem is, that one quart of oil took a real beating. It would have been recirculating very quickly and been very hot since it didn't get a chance to cool in the sump before getting used again (your temp gauge wouldn't read high – thats the coolant temp, but the oil temp would have been high). If this happened with a cheap oil, I bet you would be replacing the engine now. But mobil 1 is a great oil, and some people go 20k on it.

You could call the the dealer and speak to a tech about how much consumption they've seen. Ask him if he's seen 1 quart per 1000 miles.

If you talk to a tech, or send a sample off, I'd be curious to hear the reply.

BTW, after reading this thread, I checked the oil my IS before driving it today :) I got a couple months ago, and put synthetic oil it in 1000 miles ago. It was right at full, but I think I had it slightly overfull to start with, so its either slop or its consumed 3-4 ounces.

[SWheat]

I am using 5-30. If anything saved my car it is probably the mobile 1. I used it because I rack up miles pretty quick and I dont like changing oil. I looks like I'm going to have to babysit the oil so I'll probably switch off to a synthetic blend. Full synthetic will only be used about 1/15th its useful life - why pay the extra money.

I'm not going to take the car to the dealer. There is nothing they can do except confirm the obvious. They are not going to rip the engine apart, and I dont want them to anyway.

I'll look around or post a thread on a different lexus board and ask about oil consumption. I tried to search for oil on this board but it beeps at me because the word is too short.

[bartkat]

7 quarts is too much oil. Some will get thrown out or at least the system won't work proplerly. This could be part of the problem.

Going 15,000 miles on a new car that the mfr recommends 5000 mile changes has put you into a problem. If there ever is any damage and you take it to Lexus they have a perfectly good out from the warranty. I don't see where Lexus is at fault in any of this. The cars are great, but you can't expect them to do everything for you.

I have a 06 IS350 and change with synthetic blend every 3000 miles, simply because I'm old school. I also check the oil level every week or two depending how much I drive. I've never seen any drop in oil level at all. I'm of the opinion that I have to take care of the car if it's going to take care of me.

I'd say you never reached low enough oil pressure to get a warning. I guess what you really need is a low oil level warning light.

[F14Scott]

Can anyone cite a case of any car dealer denying a warranty claim because of improper oil change intervals (or lack of proof of proper oil change intervals)?

I ask because:

a) I've never heard of that happening.

B) Oil related failures are pretty digital. Either your engine has oil flow and pressure and is fine, from a lubrication standpoint, or it lacks pressure or flow and gets scored up or siezes. Even the oldest, dirtiest oil will do a passable job lubricating. *

c) I wonder how a dealer could enforce change intervals on pre-owned cars.

*I know a guy who never, ever changes his oil or filters. He just adds oil when it's low and keeps driving. He trades his cars at around the 200,000 mile mark. I've, personally, been using a 10,000 mile interval in my 2005 Ford Explorer with Mobil 1, and just passed 80,000 miles. I had the oil tested at 10K and 20K and it showed completely normal in particulates, wear metals, and all other categories. I don't think frequent oil changes are as important in modern engines as they once were in older engines.

[bartkat]

If a "passable job" is all you want... .... ... . . .. . .

But if you intend to start another one of those oil discussions that goes on and on and round and round, we don't do that here.

[smooth1]

Can anyone cite a case of any car dealer denying a warranty claim because of improper oil change intervals (or lack of proof of proper oil change intervals)?

I ask because:

a) I've never heard of that happening.

B) Oil related failures are pretty digital. Either your engine has oil flow and pressure and is fine, from a lubrication standpoint, or it lacks pressure or flow and gets scored up or siezes. Even the oldest, dirtiest oil will do a passable job lubricating. *

c) I wonder how a dealer could enforce change intervals on pre-owned cars.

*I know a guy who never, ever changes his oil or filters. He just adds oil when it's low and keeps driving. He trades his cars at around the 200,000 mile mark. I've, personally, been using a 10,000 mile interval in my 2005 Ford Explorer with Mobil 1, and just passed 80,000 miles. I had the oil tested at 10K and 20K and it showed completely normal in particulates, wear metals, and all other categories. I don't think frequent oil changes are as important in modern engines as they once were in older engines.

It's not very difficult to determine oil starvation issues. Or issues that occured due to improper oil change intervals.

*I know a guy who never, ever changes his oil or filters. He just adds oil when it's low and keeps driving. He trades his cars at around the 200,000 mile mark.

So he doesn't do any maintainence on any of his cars? No air filters, oil filters, oil changes, fluid changes, spark plugs and tune ups nothing?

[F14Scott]

It's not very difficult to determine oil starvation issues. Or issues that occured due to improper oil change intervals.

*I know a guy who never, ever changes his oil or filters. He just adds oil when it's low and keeps driving. He trades his cars at around the 200,000 mile mark.

So he doesn't do any maintainence on any of his cars? No air filters, oil filters, oil changes, fluid changes, spark plugs and tune ups nothing?

Oil starvation, I agree. Oil intervals, could you tell me how? For instance, if, instead of 5,000 mile changes, I did Mobil 1 Extended Performance 15,000 mile changes, could a dealer tell without sampling the oil (and, by my own experience, I don't think a dealer could tell from a single sample, either). In other words, what are the signs inside an engine that indicate infrequent changes?

As for my friend, he is the preventive maintenance worst case scenario. Never changes oil. Never changes filter. Runs his tires almost flat. Fills when the oil low warning message appears. I've never asked about other PM, but I assume it is the same way for all filters, fluids, plugs, etc.: fill, replace, or repair at warning or else at severe performance degredation. Preetty much runs the cars into the ground. However, despite his complete lack of care, they last about 200K. It's amazing.

[F14Scott]

If a "passable job" is all you want... .... ... . . .. . .

But if you intend to start another one of those oil discussions that goes on and on and round and round, we don't do that here.

I didn't say "passable" was all I wanted. I said old, dirty oil does a passable job.

Start this discussion? Me?

[bartkat]

The dreaded oil arguments always center around oil types, extended change intervals and oil testing. We just prefer not to get into that.

As for the dealer being able to tell you haven't changed oil according to the company specs, you won't have legit receipts for on time oil changes.

[smooth1]

It's not very difficult to determine oil starvation issues. Or issues that occured due to improper oil change intervals.

*I know a guy who never, ever changes his oil or filters. He just adds oil when it's low and keeps driving. He trades his cars at around the 200,000 mile mark.

So he doesn't do any maintainence on any of his cars? No air filters, oil filters, oil changes, fluid changes, spark plugs and tune ups nothing?

Oil starvation, I agree. Oil intervals, could you tell me how? For instance, if, instead of 5,000 mile changes, I did Mobil 1 Extended Performance 15,000 mile changes, could a dealer tell without sampling the oil (and, by my own experience, I don't think a dealer could tell from a single sample, either). In other words, what are the signs inside an engine that indicate infrequent changes?

As for my friend, he is the preventive maintenance worst case scenario. Never changes oil. Never changes filter. Runs his tires almost flat. Fills when the oil low warning message appears. I've never asked about other PM, but I assume it is the same way for all filters, fluids, plugs, etc.: fill, replace, or repair at warning or else at severe performance degredation. Preetty much runs the cars into the ground. However, despite his complete lack of care, they last about 200K. It's amazing.

They won't need to determine your oil change intervals until you showed up with a problem like a bent rod, bearing failure or piston ring wear, etc. etc. You will have some very specific issues that occur. Once they open that motor up, you can tell very easily by looking at a group of wear points like cylinder walls, connecting rods and wrist pins, and valve train wear. Oil starvation would lead to a thermal breakdown, all you have to do is look for "blueing". It's a blue/black/purpley spot that occurs at the point of thermal breakdown. Extended oil change intervals tend to have "trenching" in opposite sides on the journals and bearing in the valvetrain and connecting rods. Sludge deposits left behind are a even further evidence of extended oil drain intervals. Almost all of these cases are not an issue until you have a problem. Which is why oil changes are done. To prevent a problem. Remember, oil should be changed BEFORE it needs to be. Oil does alot more than just lubricate. It suspends dirt and metal particles, it cleans friction points, cools the motor and prevents corrosion. Of course vehicle manufactures are very conservative about recommended oil change intervals as they know alot of the average consumers won't adhere 100% to that schedule. They of course have a schedule that protects them from maintenance claims. Which is probably more of a reason to listen to it.

Your friend with the caveman attitude regarding maintenance.....There are many more ways to measure the effects of poor maintenance then the longevity of the motor alone. I assure you science and physics promises that he has very poor gas mileage, has terrible acceleration and power, emmitts much more toxins into the air, and probabaly burns enouph oil to counter any savings from just doing oil changes instead. ( Oil doesn't "go bad" on a continual scale. The quality of oil life drops very fast near the end of it's span, and begins to burn very rapidly as the viscosity breaks down.) Not to mention the restricted oil filters and poor air intake by not replacing those. But this one person, or few like him in no way justifies skipping, or not doing scheduled maintenance. And if he's putting 200K miles on cars, then we are talking what 1 car? maybe 2?

I have a strong feeling that enouph oil wasn't put in before. You don't just burn 5-6 quarts of oil and not have a problem with leaking or burning.

[ksJoe]

Does the ECU keep a history of when the oil change indicator was reset?

Granted that's not proof, but it is a historical record. I doubt anyone really keeps receipts.

[bartkat]

Does the ECU keep a history of when the oil change indicator was reset?

Granted that's not proof, but it is a historical record. I doubt anyone really keeps receipts.

People keep receipts for that very reason. If you aren't getting the oil changed at the dealer, the receipts are your proof. I change every 3000 miles and reset the light when it comes on at 5000. I could reset it once a week if I wanted to, since it's a manual reset.