Ls Navigation -- Call For A Class Action?

[LS460L]

I'd like to start a discussion regarding the Lexus LS460 Navigation lock-out and what we, as a group, can do to persuade Lexus that we, the folks who both purchase and use these cars, should be the ones to determine when we use our navigation system and how.

Recently, on a trip in Florida, I needed to re-route around some traffic. I knew where I wanted to go (a POI I knew). My wife, in the passenger's seat, was perfectly able to use the navigation system, were it not for the fact that it was locked out while we were in motion. I had to pull into a parking lot to make the selection. The traffic was so bad that getting back in took over 10 minutes (Orlando, go figure). The navigation system that was supposed to save me time ended up being more hindrance than help.

This has become not only an annoyance, but a danger. Stopping on the highway, which is what some folks might do, or pulling off at an exit or on a side road just to choose another destination -- especially for the passenger to do the selection -- is both ludicrous and insulting.

I have more stories, but I'm sure you share most of them.

These features are "locked out" while the car is in motion, and I believe (as I think many of you may) that the use of these options should be our choice -- not the car maker's choice.

• Choosing a different destination (POI, Address, Phone, etc.)
  
• Choosing an album to play by selecting it directly, rather than having to page through them one-by-one
  
• Dialing a phone number when using the telephone
  
• Other features "locked out" during forward motion
  

What I want, and what I believe we all expect, is for Lexus to make these features available to us at no additional charge (haven't we already spent enough on our car purchase?) in the form of an updated software release for the car, a software "hack" or an after-market "modification" that is approved by Lexus. I don't want to tell them how to do it, I just want to persuade them to do it.

So, let's start the discussion. If you are willing to become part of the solution, please post.

[FourSixOh]

...we, the folks who both purchase and use these cars, should be the ones to determine when we use our navigation system and how... This has become not only an annoyance, but a danger. Stopping on the highway... or pulling off at an exit or on a side road just to choose another destination is both ludicrous and insulting.

What I want is for Lexus to make these features available to us at no additional charge (haven't we already spent enough on our car purchase?) in the form of an updated software release for the car, a software "hack" or an after-market "modification" that is approved by Lexus. I don't want to tell them how to do it, I just want to persuade them to do it.

So, let's start the discussion. If you are willing to become part of the solution, please post.

Two words: Mercedes-Benz.

Are you listening, Lexus? We've owned mostly BMWs and Benzes in the past, with a rogue Phaeton thrown in for good measure. AFAIK, none of the German cars impose this punitive approach. As much as my wife likes her LS460L, I will NEVER buy another car that locks out the technology I'm paying for. Both the Phaeton (my wife's car just before the LS460L) and my current (3 weeks old) Mercedes ML63 allow the driver or passenger to use the functions of the telematics (phone, nav, audio, etc.) without restriction. The voice control does NOT make up for this limitation of the Lexus. If Lexus is marketing the LS460L as technologically superior, then I want to see BMW and Mercedes commercials that specifically mention how Lexus treats their customers like 5 year-olds...

One more word: Garmin. They must sell a LOT more GPS units than Lexus sells cars, and ALL of them have the option to defeat the "safety in motion" feature. Toyota's castration of the LS460Ls capacities is absolutely asinine, insulting, and infuriating...

[RFeldes]

Agreed......Mercedes allows "all" modes to be changed by the owner and is part of their sales pitch against Lexus and has an azimuth for the screen to shift to the passenger. Mercedes owners are allowed to change "any" presets in the vehicle where as you have to "ask" your Lexus dealer to reprogram such basics as door lock features. The difference being..Lexus lawyers work overtime to treat us like children. Hope they are listening. A Real "pet peeve" of mine on the 460 versa the 550.

[SKperformance]

There should be an override lockout screen you can access through a hidden button on the screen

[birdieman]

I agree that's unreasonable and make the features unusable

[SW03ES]

Get used to it, and its not just Lexus that does it. Sometime soon the DOT will make these lockouts law, and everybody will have to fall in line.

Lexus has been making the same navigation system with the same lockouts since 1998, this is not new. Its heralded as the best in the business by tons of publications too.

Like I said in another thread, I've had this nav system for 4 years and I don't get it. Just set your destination before you leave or pull over. You don't need to be careening down the highway at 85MPH setting destinations anyways. I drive 25k miles a year and use the nav system extensively, it no longer bothers me.

[LS460L]

Get used to it, and its not just Lexus that does it. Sometime soon the DOT will make these lockouts law, and everybody will have to fall in line.

Lexus has been making the same navigation system with the same lockouts since 1998, this is not new. Its heralded as the best in the business by tons of publications too.

Like I said in another thread, I've had this nav system for 4 years and I don't get it. Just set your destination before you leave or pull over. You don't need to be careening down the highway at 85MPH setting destinations anyways. I drive 25k miles a year and use the nav system extensively, it no longer bothers me.

You made reference to the DOT -- "Sometime soon the DOT will make these lockouts law..." Could you please forward me either a link to that source or direct me to whomever gave you that information?

As a general note, I've been pleased with the comments from various folks. I, too, have had the navigation system in my other cars -- and, yes I had it in my 430 (which I could override when necessary). My choice in a Japanese car over a German car is purely personal. While I am happy the Germans did not worry so much about litigation, I no longer purchase Mercedes or BMW -- not a ding in any way (they are fine vehicles), just my personal choice these days.

I appreciate your (and everyone's) responses.

[SW03ES]

Absolutely, I will look for the article and post it here when I find it.

[mtork]

The Nav lockout is yet another example of corporate compliance versus customer service IMO. I personally find this to be a safety hazard versus a feature. I use my phone frequently in the car (with the bluetooth feature), so instead of using the large buttons on the nav screen, I use the small buttons on my phone. I'm responsible enough to do this without causing an accident. I agree with an earlier post, where my wife or kids easily work the other features when I'm driving (put a sensor in the seat for pete's sake).

With the money we are paying for these vehicles, someone will come up with an override chip I will gladly pay for to have this resolved.

I apologize for the ranting but I'm getting really fed up with the government and the bar holding manufactures accountable for stupid individual behavior.

Hopefully, capitalism will come to the rescue.

[SW03ES]

Unfortunately I have yet to be able to find the article I was reading that addressed the upcoming plans for standardizing lockouts for in car navigation systems, I'll keep looking but my office is a jumbled mess of magazines and publications so who knows when it might turn up. It was a car publication though from several months ago...

Anyways basically the article talked about the ever increasing functionality of in car navigation and entertainment systems and proposed upcoming changes in what carmakers will be able to allow drivers to do while the car is in motion. The problem with the law is the car being "in motion". Video displays within the driver's line of sight are already outlawed in the US.

[LS460L]

Unfortunately I have yet to be able to find the article I was reading that addressed the upcoming plans for standardizing lockouts for in car navigation systems, I'll keep looking but my office is a jumbled mess of magazines and publications so who knows when it might turn up. It was a car publication though from several months ago...

Anyways basically the article talked about the ever increasing functionality of in car navigation and entertainment systems and proposed upcoming changes in what carmakers will be able to allow drivers to do while the car is in motion. The problem with the law is the car being "in motion". Video displays within the driver's line of sight are already outlawed in the US.

No problem, but if you run across it, please post the information. There's a lot of talk on Capitol Hill about a lot of things. As mtork and others have said already in this forum, the fact that we must resort to the smaller buttons on our hand-helds to make a phone call can be arguably more dangerous than using the Nav system's nice, large numbers on the user-friendly touch screen. And, who gets sued when someone is messing with their Garmin or iPod and gets into an accident? According to the posts, so far, we agree that the responsibility lies with whomever is behind the wheel in these situations.

Lexus (really Denso, the company that makes the Nav system and software) went to great lengths to provide an absolutely wonderful user interface. It's much (no, really -- much!) improved from the LS430 (which was worlds better than the LS400's).

For me, using a touch screen is infinitely more safe than trying to use the "knob" I found in other vehicles. Lexus made sure that you would need minimal time looking at the screen.

I believe folks here would agree that an effective argument can be made to Lexus to relax its grip on at least the main controls of the Navigation system, telephone and album lists; but I'll bet folks would agree that when you're driving, playing the video of a DVD could certainly be "locked out" if we had to compromise.

Please, folks, continue to post your issues. Let's give Lexus something to chew on!

[SW03ES]

I will, I even google searched for it online but it didn't come up.

I agree with you, I don't understand why you can't use the phone buttons on the nav screen. You do however have the voice dialing control for the phone which works pretty well, as for who gets sued if someone is fiddling with a Garmin or iPod, I'm sure people have sued Garmin and Apple, and we all know how hard legislators are working to ban the use of cell phones and handheld devices in cars.

I'm from the school where I try and make the best of a situation. Since Lexus has been making these nav systems with these lockouts for nearly 10 years the odds of them changing that practice are not good. They have provided several new features to help increase the system's functionality while moving such as the voice interface which is MUCH improved and will only get better. I just prefer to try and make the system work for me and I have, it no longer bothers me.

If you want to try and organize a group to try and get Lexus to change this practice (as well as the many other companies who do this) go ahead, but I doubt you'll be successful.

[blkls]

I will, I even google searched for it online but it didn't come up.

I agree with you, I don't understand why you can't use the phone buttons on the nav screen. You do however have the voice dialing control for the phone which works pretty well, as for who gets sued if someone is fiddling with a Garmin or iPod, I'm sure people have sued Garmin and Apple, and we all know how hard legislators are working to ban the use of cell phones and handheld devices in cars.

I'm from the school where I try and make the best of a situation. Since Lexus has been making these nav systems with these lockouts for nearly 10 years the odds of them changing that practice are not good. They have provided several new features to help increase the system's functionality while moving such as the voice interface which is MUCH improved and will only get better. I just prefer to try and make the system work for me and I have, it no longer bothers me.

If you want to try and organize a group to try and get Lexus to change this practice (as well as the many other companies who do this) go ahead, but I doubt you'll be successful.

I too have been frustrated with the restrictions placed on the available electronics in the LS460. Unfortunately, even if we could get Lexus to enable these features with a "Super Waiver", that does not protect them from the lawyers of the family you ran into when you were watching a DVD. I suspect the only way to use all the features in modern vehicles will be hacks and bypasses--where Lexus has no control, IE liability.

[LexusTech117]

I too have been frustrated with the restrictions placed on the available electronics in the LS460. Unfortunately, even if we could get Lexus to enable these features with a "Super Waiver", that does not protect them from the lawyers of the family you ran into when you were watching a DVD. I suspect the only way to use all the features in modern vehicles will be hacks and bypasses--where Lexus has no control, IE liability.

With the above quote in mind...

There is a way to trick the navigation system into thinking you're not moving anywhere (thus enabling you to use the locked out functions) but it disables the "dead reckoning" part of the nav system which runs off the wheel speed sensors. The GPS side of the nav system will still peg your car on the right part of the map, unless you go into a tunnel where the signals can not be received.

The use of such a modification would certainly be moving the responsibilty of safe driving from Lexus shoulder's to the owner of the modified vehicle. The lawyers of the family you ran into might also go after the shop that tricked the navigation system.

[LS460L]

That's an interesting point LexusTech117 raises; but rather than make rogue alterations to a system I know technically nothing about, I think it might make sense for us to group together and send Lexus an open letter requesting that they make these features available to those who want them. I'll bet Lexus has received many letters from disappointed folks.

I believe Lexus wants to pursue perfection as much as they do customer satisfaction. If I get 50 or more posts to this subject (50 individuals), I'll be happy to post a letter and provide a way for folks to "digitally sign" the letter.

For the everyday person who buys an LS (or an ES; or any other Lexus for that matter) and wants to use the functions I've mentioned in this section, there's no reason they should resort to hacks, cutting wires or any other third-party work being performed on their cars. Lexus should get in front of this now, before this request becomes something much more formal.

I believe Lexus should allow "unlocking" these features; and if they need to, for their own protection, have the owner sign a waiver, then so be it.

Who else agrees?

[RFeldes]

Nix, That would open an array of lawsuits toward the signatores in the event of an accident. Surely passed on to the insurance council. The best way is to let time and pressure from the competition avail. I do not agree with the right to watch DVD's on the front screen but do have a desire for my "passenger" to change to an alternate route. I believe Mercedes accomplished that with an "azimuth" correction. That means the screen shifts the "content" of the gps enabling the passenger to change the input so the driver cannot see it. Gotta Love those Germans.

[LS460L]

Nix, That would open an array of lawsuits toward the signatores in the event of an accident. Surely passed on to the insurance council. The best way is to let time and pressure from the competition avail. I do not agree with the right to watch DVD's on the front screen but do have a desire for my "passenger" to change to an alternate route. I believe Mercedes accomplished that with an "azimuth" correction. That means the screen shifts the "content" of the gps enabling the passenger to change the input so the driver cannot see it. Gotta Love those Germans.

I appreciate your posting. While I disagree with our assertion that the folks who might sign any sort of letter or petition would be held liable, I do agree that viewing a DVD while driving (as I'd indicated in the initial posting) certainly wouldn't be a function that I'd ask to have activated while in motion.

Rather, to restate here for clarity, I think the basic features allowing navigation selection, phone and music selection is sufficient.

Everyone else -- RFeldes has had a say; what about anyone else who is frustrated with the "lock outs" in our new Lexus LS460's?

[blkls]

Nix, That would open an array of lawsuits toward the signatores in the event of an accident. Surely passed on to the insurance council. The best way is to let time and pressure from the competition avail. I do not agree with the right to watch DVD's on the front screen but do have a desire for my "passenger" to change to an alternate route. I believe Mercedes accomplished that with an "azimuth" correction. That means the screen shifts the "content" of the gps enabling the passenger to change the input so the driver cannot see it. Gotta Love those Germans.

I appreciate your posting. While I disagree with our assertion that the folks who might sign any sort of letter or petition would be held liable, I do agree that viewing a DVD while driving (as I'd indicated in the initial posting) certainly wouldn't be a function that I'd ask to have activated while in motion.

Rather, to restate here for clarity, I think the basic features allowing navigation selection, phone and music selection is sufficient.

Everyone else -- RFeldes has had a say; what about anyone else who is frustrated with the "lock outs" in our new Lexus LS460's?

I would be happy to sign a petition that would allow the use of the feaures you have mentioned.

[rpbassman]

If I get 50 or more posts to this subject (50 individuals), I'll be happy to post a letter and provide a way for folks to "digitally sign" the letter.

Who else agrees?

I'm with you on this. We have a 2004 LS 430, a vehicle I consider as closer to my idea of perfection than any car I've ever owned, as well as a 2004 RX 330 - both with navigation systems. If I were to list my single aggravating item about the car after three years of ownership, it would definitely be the lockout of navigation and telephone features, even if the car is barely rolling forward. There is the obvious distraction factor, but it's certainly no worse than any other of the many distractions a driver faces. So it takes responsibility on the part of the driver to know when to not be distracted, even for a very brief time. Your experience near Orlando has been repeated by me on more occasions than I care to recall. Include me as one of the 50, or however many this turns into.

[Doug Bates]

For the everyday person who buys an LS (or an ES; or any other Lexus for that matter) and wants to use the functions I've mentioned in this section, there's no reason they should resort to hacks, cutting wires or any other third-party work being performed on their cars. Lexus should get in front of this now, before this request becomes something much more formal.

Who else agrees?

I bought an '07 ES350 in October and tried using their arbitrations service to return the vehicle, since it was a significant change in vehicle operation resulting in a safety hazard and the removal of the override was kept from me when I bought the car . More than 2 months later, my claim was denied as being outside the scope of the NCDS (National Center for Dispute Resolution- they apparently only deal with Warranty issues) when Lexus filed a motion to deny my claim on that basis.

I am looking at other options right now- I wonder if people would be willing to contribute to hire a programmer to hack the Nav 6.1 system and offer it just as we would like? That is cheaper than trading it in for another vehicle, though I find Lexus' disregard for customer wishes very arrogant.

Doug Bates

[Burnaby]

I am new to Navi systems having done fine without them over the years. Having opinions about their functionality is highly subjective, and dependent on vehicle use. When I first used the one in my LS, I was somewhat indifferent, but grew to appreciate it when I needed it. I leave it turned off most of the time. Even now I find myself looking at maps to find directions, and kick myself halfway there for forgetting to use it; especially is I have trouble locating my destination. I've even asked for directions at a gas station and wondered why afterwards. Peculiar isn't it? When I do use it, I find it very useful & highly functional. Seeing become disabled when the car moves hasn't really bothered me, but losing some of the audio functions has been annoying at times. That's been my experience anyway...

[LS460L]

For the everyday person who buys an LS (or an ES; or any other Lexus for that matter) and wants to use the functions I've mentioned in this section, there's no reason they should resort to hacks, cutting wires or any other third-party work being performed on their cars. Lexus should get in front of this now, before this request becomes something much more formal.

Who else agrees?

I am looking at other options right now- I wonder if people would be willing to contribute to hire a programmer to hack the Nav 6.1 system and offer it just as we would like? That is cheaper than trading it in for another vehicle, though I find Lexus' disregard for customer wishes very arrogant.

Doug Bates

Hi, Doug! I'm sorry your arbitration process didn't give you the outcome you deserve. If you are unsatisfied to the degree you said, it's certainly fair to expect Lexus to take the vehicle back -- that is, if they relentlessly pursue Customer Service as much as they do Perfection. With Lexus, we aren't used to having to worry about "caveat emptor" when it comes to buying a Lexus -- they've done an excellent job with the LS460L; it's just this nagging issue about who should decide whether I use the features in the car -- the Car Maker or the Car Owner. My vote is: the Owner.

I, too, am looking for options; but I feel that hacking the system, whether it be by cutting a wire or breaking into the software aren't the right options. I doubt your ES isn't the last car you'll ever own. I'm sure my LS isn't, either. I don't want to go through this again!

However, I do think we might think about formally making it known to Lexus that there are a lot of dissatisfied folks out there, regarding the Navigation lockouts specifically.

If it's all right with you, I'll add your name to the ever-growing list of folks willing to sign an open letter to Lexus (at this time, it's just an open letter).

[silvercorvette]

I love my RX400H and I was planning on getting another one when my lease ended but it looks like I will wind up with another car 2 1/2 years from now. I hear that GM is coming out with a car called the VOLT. If is is available 2 1/2 years from now I will get it. Right now Lexus owns the hybrid market but it won't take long for other makers to catch up, if Lexus doesn't give us a NAV that works I am sure that there are others that feel the same way I do and they will get a different make.

There was one other poster on this thread that seems happy to let Lexus decide what is best for him and when he should be allowed to use his NAV. I prefer to think for myself and not be prevented from using all the functions of the NAV while moving.

[SW03ES]

if Lexus doesn't give us a NAV that works I am sure that there are others that feel the same way I do and they will get a different make.

They've been making this nav system for a decade with the same lockouts, sales just keep breaking records. As for nav, ever used GM's nav? Its a joke.

There was one other poster on this thread that seems happy to let Lexus decide what is best for him and when he should be allowed to use his NAV. I prefer to think for myself and not be prevented from using all the functions of the NAV while moving.

Come on. Obviously I would prefer the system be fully functional, at least with a passenger in the car. However, I am far too busy a man to whine complain and focus my energy on trying to change something that they're just not gonna change. So, instead I choose to find a way to make the system work for me and I'm happy, have been for 4 years. I like to be happy, not miserable. Obviously other people don't feel the same way, I'll send them some tums.

Right now Lexus owns the hybrid market but it won't take long for other makers to catch up,

I don't see how. No other car manufacturer is as far along in hybrid powertrain development as Toyota, and other manufacturers that have similar hybrid technology (Honda's is NOT the same, Hondas cannot operate soley on battery power) like Ford and GM only have it because Toyota licensed them their previous generation hybrid technology! Toyota's already on generation three of its hybrid powertrain, nobody else even has one. Toyota's going to own the Hybrid market for a LONG time.

The question comes, are hybrid cars really the future? I personally don't think so.

[LS460L]

Right now Lexus owns the hybrid market but it won't take long for other makers to catch up,

I don't see how. No other car manufacturer is as far along in hybrid powertrain development as Toyota, and other manufacturers that have similar hybrid technology (Honda's is NOT the same, Hondas cannot operate soley on battery power) like Ford and GM only have it because Toyota licensed them their previous generation hybrid technology! Toyota's already on generation three of its hybrid powertrain, nobody else even has one. Toyota's going to own the Hybrid market for a LONG time.

The question comes, are hybrid cars really the future? I personally don't think so.

Thanks for your input, however I'd like to refocus this discussion on the thread's title: "LS Navigation -- Call for a Class Action?" rather than becoming side-tracked on hybrids; although I'm sure the 600H does have the same Navigation block-outs that the 460 does.

Regarding your other comments, thanks for your opinion. However, I can't tell: are you in agreement with us, or are you not in agreement? Would you sign a petition to Lexus asking them to alter their Navigation system lockouts or not?

As one of the Management of this site, your voice may carry some weight.