Brake Pad - Ceramic Or Semi-metallic

[tld]

Hi,

I am about to replace the brake pads on my '99 RX300, which has about 45K miles on it. I am unsure which type to get, ceramic or semi-metallic. One owner on this forum indicated that he was advised to stay with semi-metallic pad, which is what the Rx comes with. However, I'll seen several posts where other owners are replacing them with ceramic pads. Any suggestion?

Thanks and Regards,

LD

[Rx330driver]

well the stock pads are definitely not ceramic. those are for suprer cars, or for cars with brembo brakes or something. Id stick with the semi metallic

[1990LS400]

The warning message for the front brake pads on my 00 LS400 happened to come on for the first time on the way to work today at about 71,500 miles and I am having them replaced tomorrow. Our Camry is at 88,000 miles and has lots of life left on the OEM front brake pads. From our experience, Toyota/Lexus brake pads last a very long time. I estimate the ones on the rear of my LS will go around 120K miles.

I'm curious. Is a 45K mile brake pad life fairly normal on an RX?

[mikey00]

Hi,

I am about to replace the brake pads on my '99 RX300, which has about 45K miles on it. I am unsure which type to get, ceramic or semi-metallic. One owner on this forum indicated that he was advised to stay with semi-metallic pad, which is what the Rx comes with. However, I'll seen several posts where other owners are replacing them with ceramic pads. Any suggestion?

Thanks and Regards,

LD

Are you sure you need new pads at 45K? Many factors affect pad life but RX stock pads usually last 70 to 80k. I would stick with the stock pads, they are one of the better features of the RX. If you are doing it yourself, Irontoad.com delivers them right to your door in a couple of days at a great price.

[Rx330driver]

what the heck, i dont know how you guys keep your brake pads past 10K miles. lol i have owned this rx330 for 2 years, and it has 42K miles on it. I have changed the brake pads at the lexus dealership at least 3 times.

[lenore]

I too wonder why your pads are bad so soon, my first set lasted to 70k and they still had material left. At 110k my rotors warped ( after lexus serviced the vehicle for the transmission) so I switched to Brembo disks and ceramic (Akebono) and they are super, also very little dust and no noises. I agree the OEM pads are great too though. 70k is great compared to most cars.

[TunedRX300]

I too wonder why your pads are bad so soon, my first set lasted to 70k and they still had material left. At 110k my rotors warped ( after lexus serviced the vehicle for the transmission) so I switched to Brembo disks and ceramic (Akebono) and they are super, also very little dust and no noises. I agree the OEM pads are great too though. 70k is great compared to most cars.

I second lenore on positive Akebono experience. Also keep in mind that it is highly depend on manufacturer's design.

There is a difference in ceramic brake rotor and ceramic brake pads, they are not the same.

Tire Rack has additional users reviews.

http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/brakecommen...Pads&group=null

[chimchim]

well the stock pads are definitely not ceramic. those are for suprer cars, or for cars with brembo brakes or something. Id stick with the semi metallic

Huh? Ceremic used to be only found in race applications, but that's not the case anymore. There are various types of ceramic applications.

Tirerack.com lists these pads as replacements for the RX:

Akebono ProACT Ceramic Pads (Material: Ceramic)

I have these pads on my other car and they are essentially OE equivalent pads: soft, smooth, comfortable, low dust, low noise pads. Clearly this is a different ceramic than the race applications.

To the original poster, you have to choose what application you want the pads for. If you want to maintain the OE soft, smooth, comfortable, low dust, low noise then the above pads are good replacements. I used metallic before and they bite much harder (more stopping) and noise (grinding sound), dust, and harshness to the rotors comes with it. The RX is a passenger luxury vehicle, so I'd stick to the OE equivalents.

BTW, if you do change pads, make sure ALL FOUR are equivalent. Don't switch just one set to metal and keep the other OE or whatever. This messes up the brake balance designed into the car and you will have poorer braking distance than before. I learned this the hard way with my other car which had drum rear brakes. I tried upgrading just the front disc pads and that threw off the balance. My rears were hardly doing any work and the fronts quickly activated the ABS. Although this felt like it was stopping harder because I didn't have to push the brake as far, my actually stopping distances were a little worse (I'm estimating) and worse: I got massive tire wear on the fronts.

what the heck, i dont know how you guys keep your brake pads past 10K miles. lol i have owned this rx330 for 2 years, and it has 42K miles on it. I have changed the brake pads at the lexus dealership at least 3 times.

Do you perhaps weigh > 300 lbs, carry 3 other passengers also > 300 lbs and have the trunk stuffed with bricks? Just kidding.

I'm surprised your brakes don't last very long. Do you commute down hill a lot?

[Rx330driver]

I'm surprised your brakes don't last very long. Do you commute down hill a lot?

well, i do live in san francisco...so yes there are a lot of hills here.

[lenore]

by the way I have found that the rear on my RX300 wore out before the front, never have had that happen before, but so be it. I have ceramics *akebono) on all four wheels and the braking is great. Very smooth and very quiet. Tire Rack was the vender, good service also.

what the heck, i dont know how you guys keep your brake pads past 10K miles. lol i have owned this rx330 for 2 years, and it has 42K miles on it. I have changed the brake pads at the lexus dealership at least 3 times.

Boy sounds like some of my old honda accords that had bad braking design. Swith your rotors and check the calipers closely and go to ceramics, maybe you will get better brake life.

[Rx330driver]

maybe...but im a lexus dealership person. OEM EVERYTHING! lol

[TunedRX300]

maybe...but im a lexus dealership person. OEM EVERYTHING! lol

Be surprised in this day of age, how many Lexus/Toyota branded parts are made by someone else.

A direct quote from http://www.babcox.com/editorial/bf/bf30322.htm

Enter Akebono, an OEM brake supplier to most of the Japanese automakers. Akebono pioneered the development of ceramic-based friction materials back in 1985, and began to market their ceramic linings to a growing list of vehicle manufacturers in Asia and North America. Today, Akebono supplies most of the Japanese transplant manufacturers in the U.S as well as Ford (Taurus up to model year 2002, and the new Ford Explorer), GM trucks and Saturn. Akebono also has an aftermarket product line that is marketed under the ProACT banner (ACT stands for Akebono Ceramic Technology).

According to Bill Hilbrandt, vice president of research and development at Akebono, ceramic materials are a good choice for brake linings because they have stable and predictable friction characteristics, more so than most semi-metallic materials. Ceramics provide a consistent pedal feel that is the same whether the pads are hot or cold because the coefficient of friction doesn’t drop off as quickly as semi-metallics. NVH (noise, vibration & harshness) is also less with ceramics, so the brakes are significantly quieter.

[RX in NC]

Be aware that for ANY vehicle, if you switch from semi-metallic pads to ceramic pads you must also change to ceramic rotors. Running ceramic pads on rotors designed for semi-metallic pads will tear up your braking system very quickly....

[TunedRX300]

Be aware that for ANY vehicle, if you switch from semi-metallic pads to ceramic pads you must also change to ceramic rotors. Running ceramic pads on rotors designed for semi-metallic pads will tear up your braking system very quickly....

Again not all ceramic is the same. Not trying to debate but I want to add some indepedent verification of previous poster's comment.

Huh? Ceremic used to be only found in race applications, but that's not the case anymore. There are various types of ceramic applications

Not all ceramic pad have high friction coefficient. In fact, as a lot of race pads are made with semi-metallic that are extremely harsh on brake rotors.

Another direct quote on the link I provide to clarify confusion.

Back in the 1980s most automakers were using semi-metallic pads on their front-wheel drive cars. Semi-metallic friction materials containing chopped steel fibers were, and still are, a popular choice for high-temperature, hard-use braking applications. But, because of their high steel content, semi-metallic compounds tend to be harsh, noisy and hard on rotors. Brake suppliers also developed a variety of nonasbestos organic (NAO) compounds, but NAOs are better suited for low-temperature applications and drum brakes. Something else was needed as an alternative to semi-mets.

Ceramic compounds can be very complex and may use 18 to 20 different ingredients in a formula, including various fillers and lubricants that are added to help dampen vibrations and noise. A typical semi-metallic compound, by comparison, might contain only eight or nine ingredients.

Though semi-metallic linings generally provide better wear at higher temperatures, ceramics do just as well, if not better, at lower temperatures for the average driver. Consequently, pad life is often improved.

Low dust is another desirable characteristic of the material. The color of the material is a light gray so it is less visible on wheels (unlike some NAO pad materials that produce a dark brown or black dust that clings to wheels).

One very important point that Hilbrandt stressed is that all ceramics are not the same. Every brake manufacturer uses their own ceramic-based or ceramic-enhanced compounds. The type of ceramics used, the particle size, distribution, hardness and other ingredients that go into a ceramic type of friction material can all vary, even from one vehicle application to another. So ceramics should not be stereotyped or viewed as some type of generic product.

[SKperformance]

You do not have to change to a ceramic rotor RX in NC !

Hell they only make ceramic rotors for Ferrari's and other exotics which need extended heat applications.

Ceramic pads last longer and survive heat better ,they may make more noise especially if not installed properly and can wear the rotors surface faster but you do not have to go out and try and source a ceramic compound rotor which would be in the thousands of dollars if it is even made for simple vehicles such as a Lexus.

That is definatly bad information to be telling people RX.

[Grumpa72]

Well, here is my soap box. I am a huge fan of OEM quality, not necessarily OEM parts. Go to any McParts stores and tell them you want OEM brake pads, let's call them Silver. The kid (usually) behind the counter says "you get better braking by switching to Gold or Platinum." What they don't tell you is that you will soon be replacing rotors.

Fwiw, my wife's 93 Acura Legend has 112000 with original rotors and just two or three pad changes, all with OEM quality pads. In addition, I have never had these rotors cut on a lathe and they are as nice as they were new. I truly think that cutting rotors and buying "premium" pads, including ceramic, is a money making gimic. In addition, my Acura example is not unique. My other cars all have original rotors with the exception of the 95 Integra, which got new rotors at around 115000. By all means, cut a rotor that is warped but most aren't.

Gary

[mikey00]

At 93K on I am on my original non-turned rotors and have only changed the pads once with Lexus pads. The original pads stopped the car well, were quite, low dusting, and wore evenly front to back. They lasted over 70K and I don't expect to have to change them again until about 150K. When the time comes I will use OEM pads again. Irontoad has a good price and they show up at my door in a couple of days. Common sense tells me the pads are not actually made by Lexus but come from a Lexus approved supplier.

[TunedRX300]

Well, here is my soap box. I am a huge fan of OEM quality, not necessarily OEM parts. Go to any McParts stores and tell them you want OEM brake pads, let's call them Silver. The kid (usually) behind the counter says "you get better braking by switching to Gold or Platinum." What they don't tell you is that you will soon be replacing rotors.

Totally agree, whoever makes better pad at same or less $ gets my business. Value not brand for me.

Tire Rack has a link that describes "Why ceramic brake pads", they sell both ceramic and semi-metallic pads.

Everyone's experience is different, just want to provide information so people can decide themselves.

http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/tech/techpage.jsp?techid=88

Direct quote:

We want our vehicle's brake system to offer smooth, quiet braking capabilities under a wide range of temperature and road conditions. We don't want brake-generated noise and dust annoying us during our daily driving.

To accommodate this, brake friction materials have evolved significantly over the years. They've gone from asbestos to organic to semi-metallic formulations. Each of these materials has proven to have advantages and disadvantages regarding environmental friendliness, wear, noise and stopping capability.

Asbestos pads caused health issues and organic compounds can't always meet a wide range of braking requirements. Unfortunately the steel strands used in semi-metallic pads to provide strength and conduct heat away from rotors also generate noise and are abrasive enough to increase rotor wear.

Since they were first used on a few original equipment applications in 1985, friction materials that contain ceramic formulations have become recognized for their desirable blend of traits. These pads use ceramic compounds and copper fibers in place of the semi-metallic pad's steel fibers. This allows the ceramic pads to handle high brake temperatures with less heat fade, provide faster recovery after the stop, and generate less dust and wear on both the pads and rotors. And from a comfort standpoint, ceramic compounds provide much quieter braking because the ceramic compound helps dampen noise by generating a frequency beyond the human hearing range.

Another characteristic that makes ceramic materials attractive is the absence of noticeable dust. All brake pads produce dust as they wear. The ingredients in ceramic compounds produce a light colored dust that is much less noticeable and less likely to stick to the wheels. Consequently, wheels and tires maintain a cleaner appearance longer.

Ceramic pads meet or exceed all original equipment standards for durability, stopping distance and noise. According to durability tests, ceramic compounds extend brake life compared to most other semi-metallic and organic materials and outlast other premium pad materials by a significant margin - with no sacrifice in noise control, pad life or braking performance.

This is quite an improvement over organic and semi-metallic brake materials that typically sacrifice pad life to reduce noise, or vice versa.

[RX in NC]

SK Performance,

I'll clarify here. What I should have said (instead of "ceramic rotors") is that if you change from semi-metallic pads to ceramic pads, in all likelihood you're going to need to find new rotors that are capable of handling the greater friction and wear-and-tear that ceramic pads are going to inflict upon your factory rotors. I believe that blindly replacing semi-metallic pads with ceramic pads on vehicles that come from the factory as semi-metallic is usually a mistake if you value a long lifespan for your overall braking system.

Sorry if I confused anyone other than SK Performance. I'll stay with semi-metallic pads on this vehicle. The original set delivered close to 80,000 miles with no problems. That's good enough to keep me from !Removed! around with ceramic pads that would cause more rotor damage and give me a shorter lifespan as a result. Never a good outcome from either a financial or a longevity perspective....

[SKperformance]

ahh ,that makes more sense

thanks for the clarification.

I still would prefer to have decreased stopping distances as it takes lots of hard stops to actually wear the surfaces of the rotors before the pads

[JudyAA]

Based on what I've read on this thread, I'm going to replace the front brake pads on my all-wheel-drive RX330 with semi metallic, because that's I had installed on the rear a year ago. My question is, does the type of rear rotors I've already installed, or the fact that I'm using semi-metallic pads dictate the type of rotors I should pick (reg, slotted, or drilled) or does the car model itself dictate that choice?

[ricco750]

Judy, I had to read your post several times (it's early, I'm sleepy) to try to get an idea of what your question is.

First and foremost, I would not mix different types of rotors and pads, i.e. slotted rotors in the rear, another type in the front...and the same with the pads type. On my '99RX, I am running ceramic pads with the stock rotors, but eventually plan to install new slotted rotors all around and new ceramic pads, with powder-coated calipers (for looks), all from brakeperformance.com. I have bought from this company several times over the past 5 years, and like doing business with them. I installed their slotted rotors and ceramic pads on my wife's '02 Highlander over two years ago, and they are in perfect condition...and she is hard on brakes.

The general info on cross-drilled rotors is that they should not be used with "regular" driving needs, as they are primarily designed for high-performance driving. If you go to the website for PowerSlot brakes, they have some useful videos to watch.

I hope this is helpful with your questions.