I Think I've Figured It Out

[ArmyofOne]

For me these days, free time = discussions with the soon to be wife about floral patterns and china  . Like I want to do that!

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I feel you pain brother...i really do.

[RFeldes]

For me these days, free time = discussions with the soon to be wife about floral patterns and china  . Like I want to do that!

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I feel you pain brother...i really do.

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Me Too!!! Happy Days :D

[ArmyofOne]

For me these days, free time = discussions with the soon to be wife about floral patterns and china . Like I want to do that!

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I feel you pain brother...i really do.

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Me Too!!! Happy Days :D

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At least yours doesnt take your money Ralph! :whistles: :P

[nc211]

Is there such a thing as a no-finance 0% APR fiance'/wife? If so, how do I apply? Hahahaa. Oh if there are women on here that take offense to this comment, I'm only playin' ;) . I'm 32 years old, and all I want for christmas is a gas powered remote controlled helicopter. I've been asking for one for 20 years. So take that into consideration as an indication of my maturity level before calling me out.

[RFeldes]

You guys are a Hoot!!! Love, Ralph

[nc211]

And back it comes....

Got new tires put on yesterday. I bought some Continetal Premium cruisers from tirerack...$87 a tire. The verdict is still out, but only got 10 miles on them. Question: should the car be realigned since it has new tires on it now? I had them balance them...but didn't do a very good job. I can tell they're all over the place in the balancing. I think I'm going to pop off all the weights and see what happens. I remember when I owned my 99 Subaru Outback, had a new set of tires put on and the Subbie mechanic "who was awesome!" said "take the weights off and let the tires find their own balance...so I did...and he was right. Took maybe 30 miles of driving, and never had a problem after that. So, I might try that on these new tires as well.

By the way....NO MORE WOBBLE!! Ahhh...so nice it's gone!

[dcfish]

And back it comes....

Got new tires put on yesterday. I bought some Continetal Premium cruisers from tirerack...$87 a tire. The verdict is still out, but only got 10 miles on them. Question: should the car be realigned since it has new tires on it now? I had them balance them...but didn't do a very good job. I can tell they're all over the place in the balancing. I think I'm going to pop off all the weights and see what happens. I remember when I owned my 99 Subaru Outback, had a new set of tires put on and the Subbie mechanic "who was awesome!" said "take the weights off and let the tires find their own balance...so I did...and he was right. Took maybe 30 miles of driving, and never had a problem after that. So, I might try that on these new tires as well.

By the way....NO MORE WOBBLE!! Ahhh...so nice it's gone!

It wouldn't hurt to try the removal of all the weights, Hell It's not a bad idea. You might want to clean the inside of the wheels[ I think that is where the weights are anyway ] You wouldn't beleive the crap that builds up in there, And it has to effect balance. Let us know how it goes.

[bartkat]

An old time Goodyear guy once told me to run the tires more or less gently for 50 miles and then balance them.

[dcfish]

An old time Goodyear guy once told me to run the tires more or less gently for 50 miles and then balance them.

Makes sense B)

[nc211]

I heard that too somewhere, but I think it was 500 miles from where I saw it...I think it was on tirerack? Now I can do it for 50 miles....but 500 with a V8 under my right foot might be a little tough! ;) Since my indi shop didn't do a very good job on the balancing "they never do, old equipment", I'm going to pop off the weights and let it ride normally. Then when I get it aligned on a hunter system, I'll have them balanced if need be. DC, you're right about cleaning those rims man..they are funky! I need to really hit mine with a polisher pad and some rim polish cleaner. I actually tried to pressure wash the insides once...didn't do a damn thing but get me soaking wet. By the way, the weights my indi shop uses are put on the outside..the weights the dealership uses are on the inside...so I've probably got weights everywhere.

Edited January 4, 2006 by nc211

[nc211]

I just pulled off 110 grams of weights from my wheels!

Now, why in the world would a brand new set of tires, on a set of undamaged rims need that much weight?? I bet when I drive her tomorrow morning, she'll be much smoother. I am basing this theory on my former subaru and the fact that you don't see new cars sitting on the lots with all of these weights on them. they have undamaged rims and new tires on them..like mine now. I understand they're a lot cleaner, and I'm sure I've got enough dirt and grime on mine to add a little bit of weight..but 110 grams worth? That would be a drug dealer's dream. I think I'll polish up the rims this weekend, inside and out before I let another mechanic think about putting on another weight.

[morg96ls400]

Yeah I bought a new set of mxv4+ at costco, excellent ride now, and the day after I had an alignment (my tires were so bad before due to alignment. Had my motor mounts replaced, replaced my drive belt, replaced the tranny mount, and the car is extremely smooth.

I too found a ton of weights on my wheels, so when I get the money again I'm gonna have the dealer rebalance the tires (stupid costco also chipped the outside of one of my rims...grr).

[bartkat]

A company used to sell "ramp tested tires". They rolled tires down a ramp and sold the best ones at a premium price.

[nc211]

Um...so...I pulled off my driver's side front wheel today to clean the inside of the rim and pull off the inside weights "up to 140 grams now"...but...when I was putting the rim back on, something caught my eye that didn't seem right. On the rotor, I did not see the tiny screw on the rotor that holds it in balance? Infact, I did not see a screw hole at all for the centering screw to be placed in?? I grabbed the rotor, and it bangs around on the five wheel mounting screws "studs". It's not centered. So, I'm wondering if this could be the cause of all the balancing problems? Don't the front rotors have that tiny screw in them like the back ones do? I could SWEAR I replaced the front one rotors recently with rotors that had that screw. But, I have also had the direction "bang" in the front brakes for quite some time "since i replaced the front pads last july with autozone pads". I always thought that directional change bang was due to the pads not having the shims on them. It's a moot point for me to try and figure out if 1) I made the mistake and purchased the wrong rotors..or 2) my indi shop made the error when putting them on and screwed me over with cheapos off their shelf. I'm basically going to have to buy them again...but this time put them on my self. Anyway...the point of the post....do you guys think those rotors having about 3mm of loose play would be the cause for this whole problem? I am STUNNED that the dealership did not catch this. I'm not ticked off that I had to get new tires...they were due anyway. But I'm not satisfied yet with the ride quality of the car. The more weights I pull off...the smoother it gets. But I think, as I posted in an earlier posting on this thread, that I'm not completly sold that it is just the old tires that were doing this...and now...seeing the rotors having that much play in them and not being securely attached to the hub other than being squished between the wheel and hub.

so...what do you guys think? Don't the front rotors have that screw too? I'll if this has been the problem the whole time...and I and 5 other mechanics have missed it.

PS, liking the new continential tires...good grip and quiet.

pps...changed the weatherstipping on the front doors today...WOW what a difference in reduced wind noise.

Blake was right, you have to slam the doors now to get them to close. You open them, and it's like auto opening...they got their spring back. I highly recommend this upgrade to the older cars here. Very easy and quick to do.

PPPS: I'm pulling off the rear wheels tomorrow to get those weights off...If those rotors don't have the screws on them...I'm gonna go to the dealership with a baseball bat...because I KNOW those have them as I changed them myself 6 weeks ago! If they're not there...then I'll know for sure someone screwed me over...and I consider that stealing....you can lie to me, even cheat and I'll shrug it off with no problems...but you steal from me..and I really do just lose my composure.

Edited January 8, 2006 by nc211

[RFeldes]

Dang NC, sounds like you've been getting "Screwed" :whistles: Great tip on the weatherstipping..... and the directional "Bang" thing doesn't sound good either. LOL!!! You crack me Up!!

[Threadcutter]

Um...so...I pulled off my driver's side front wheel today to clean the inside of the rim and pull off the inside weights "up to 140 grams now"...but...when I was putting the rim back on, something caught my eye that didn't seem right. On the rotor, I did not see the tiny screw on the rotor that holds it in balance? Infact, I did not see a screw hole at all for the centering screw to be placed in?? I grabbed the rotor, and it bangs around on the five wheel mounting screws "studs". It's not centered. So, I'm wondering if this could be the cause of all the balancing problems? Don't the front rotors have that tiny screw in them like the back ones do? I could SWEAR I replaced the front one rotors recently with rotors that had that screw. But, I have also had the direction "bang" in the front brakes for quite some time "since i replaced the front pads last july with autozone pads". I always thought that directional change bang was due to the pads not having the shims on them. It's a moot point for me to try and figure out if 1) I made the mistake and purchased the wrong rotors..or 2) my indi shop made the error when putting them on and screwed me over with cheapos off their shelf. I'm basically going to have to buy them again...but this time put them on my self. Anyway...the point of the post....do you guys think those rotors having about 3mm of loose play would be the cause for this whole problem? I am STUNNED that the dealership did not catch this. I'm not ticked off that I had to get new tires...they were due anyway. But I'm not satisfied yet with the ride quality of the car. The more weights I pull off...the smoother it gets. But I think, as I posted in an earlier posting on this thread, that I'm not completly sold that it is just the old tires that were doing this...and now...seeing the rotors having that much play in them and not being securely attached to the hub other than being squished between the wheel and hub.

so...what do you guys think? Don't the front rotors have that screw too? I'll if this has been the problem the whole time...and I and 5 other mechanics have missed it.

PS, liking the new continential tires...good grip and quiet.

pps...changed the weatherstipping on the front doors today...WOW what a difference in reduced wind noise.

Blake was right, you have to slam the doors now to get them to close. You open them, and it's like auto opening...they got their spring back. I highly recommend this upgrade to the older cars here. Very easy and quick to do.

PPPS: I'm pulling off the rear wheels tomorrow to get those weights off...If those rotors don't have the screws on them...I'm gonna go to the dealership with a baseball bat...because I KNOW those have them as I changed them myself 6 weeks ago! If they're not there...then I'll know for sure someone screwed me over...and I consider that stealing....you can lie to me, even cheat and I'll shrug it off with no problems...but you steal from me..and I really do just lose my composure.

nc:

I did my brakes about 3 weeks ago, and all 4 rotors had the "cheesy" shallow head brass screws in them. 2 per rotor. Someone had worked on the brakes prior to my purchasing the car and they chewed up a couple of the phillips heads, but put them back on instead of replacing them. BTW, these are the very same screws that one poster (don't remember who) rightfully B*tched about having to pay the stealership $1.00 each for.

I did not see the tiny screw on the rotor that holds it in balance?

Are you certain that the screws are to "balance" everything. I don't know, but I didn't get that impression. It appeared to me that the screws are there just to hold the rotor in place when you remove the wheel/tire.

I don't know if the information contained in this link directly applies or not, but you should take a look at it. I haven't had the time to go through it from top to bottom & I'm going to be out of town for a week, so I won't have a chance to go over it for a couple of weeks. It refers to "Hubcentric rings" & it may be that these rings are something that your "5 mechanics" all overlooked. I dunno, but I tripped across the "planetsoarer" link below & have to admit that a) I've not heard of these before & B) These "could" have a lot to do with what you are experiencing. I don't know for certain, but if the individual ring is supposed to go "inside" the wheel, maybe you've had one fall out & no one has thought (or known) to look to make sure all 4 are in place.

Give it a LookSee........Might just do the trick.

http://planetsoarer.com/offset/studs.htm

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/HUBCENTRIC-...sspagenameZWDVW

BTWII: Just maybe.........Did any of your grief begin shortly after you "upgraded" your Avatar to the most recent version?........... :whistles: You could have done yourself irreprarable harm & not even know it. Might even have to consider a witch doctor to get straightened out.............

[ArmyofOne]

nc211, if what you suspect is realitity, as I suspect it is, then 5 other mechanics did miss it, including a lexus dealer, and I would write a LONG LONG LONG letter to corporate about the issue, as this endangered the lives of you and yoru loved ones, and other motorists to boot.

read my typing clearly as i say this:

ANY PLAY IN THE ROTORS WILL CAUSE THE PROBLEM YOU DESCRIBED.

Coming from a mechanic of the shadetree variety and now one of the US Army varieity.

The "direction bang" in the brakes is that feeling of late catch when turning while braking am i right? a kind of, "slide" feeling in the brakes?

If so then the rotors are 90% of your problem, the rest is probably running around with 2 lbs of weight on each wheel! I have seen direction bang with brakes many times, humvees are different, but the concept remains the same, something round rotating that many times per second WILL, not might, WILL wobble if its not torqued to a certian spec.

In the army that torque spec is "As tight as you can 'effin turn it, then when you have turned it that tight, get the next biggest guy around you to give it a turn, then have him get a bigger guy than him to give it a turn."

With your lexus, or at least the brakes, I suspect this is not what is nessecary, but there is something night tightened to spec. there should be ZERO play in anything in the braking system. PERIOD.

I suspect someone put the wrong rotors on your car nc.

Edited January 8, 2006 by ArmyofOne

[nc211]

Thank you fellas! Ok ok...I shifted back to the Dubbya'. Although I am hunting for a better one of him.

Yep, it's the rotors for sure. Thread, are you sure it's two screws and not just one? I did the rears myself and I only have one of those screws per rotor on mine. Yeah, I remember that thread about someone complaining about the price at the stealership per screw....it was me! Hahaha. I stripped those bast*rds so many times when doing the rears that I just went to the dealer, handed them a $20 bill and said fill the bag up with those screws. Now that I've had some sleep..I think the error is on my part for the mishap. I remember when the lazy side of me came out several months ago, bought some cheap rotors from Napa for the front "before I did the rears myself" and took the car to my indi shop for install. I did not know then what I know now about the rotors. The directional banging noise I get from the front is when the car shifts direction from forward to reverse to forward, the first time I press the brakes, I hear a loud bang in the front. Now knowing what I know, it's the pads grabbing the rotors and the wheel studs banging against the rotors. I now also know why I got that low grumble noise when coming to a slow stop, the pad to rotor noise is being transmitted directly through the wheel studs into the car. As Army "the man " undoubtably knows his stuff said, there is an unbalance problem with this set up, as there will be more of one side of the rotor on one side than the other, creating an uneven disbursement of weight around the circumfrence of the disc.

Oh, and in now way are all of these weights not contributing to this too! Now that the front driver's side wheel is weight free, clean and new tires....that side of the car is glass smooth except for the rotor, of which now that I know it's loose, I can EASILY tell that is the only component out of balance up there.

Well, back outside I go, to finish up removing the rest of the weights...I'm definelty on the right track here, thanks to you guys!! Well, as a wise hillbilly says "and is rich because of it"..time to Get r' Done!

[ArmyofOne]

Thank you fellas! Ok ok...I shifted back to the Dubbya'. Although I am hunting for a better one of him.

Yep, it's the rotors for sure. Thread, are you sure it's two screws and not just one? I did the rears myself and I only have one of those screws per rotor on mine. Yeah, I remember that thread about someone complaining about the price at the stealership per screw....it was me! Hahaha. I stripped those bast*rds so many times when doing the rears that I just went to the dealer, handed them a $20 bill and said fill the bag up with those screws. Now that I've had some sleep..I think the error is on my part for the mishap. I remember when the lazy side of me came out several months ago, bought some cheap rotors from Napa for the front "before I did the rears myself" and took the car to my indi shop for install. I did not know then what I know now about the rotors. The directional banging noise I get from the front is when the car shifts direction from forward to reverse to forward, the first time I press the brakes, I hear a loud bang in the front. Now knowing what I know, it's the pads grabbing the rotors and the wheel studs banging against the rotors. I now also know why I got that low grumble noise when coming to a slow stop, the pad to rotor noise is being transmitted directly through the wheel studs into the car. As Army "the man " undoubtably knows his stuff said, there is an unbalance problem with this set up, as there will be more of one side of the rotor on one side than the other, creating an uneven disbursement of weight around the circumfrence of the disc.

Oh, and in now way are all of these weights not contributing to this too! Now that the front driver's side wheel is weight free, clean and new tires....that side of the car is glass smooth except for the rotor, of which now that I know it's loose, I can EASILY tell that is the only component out of balance up there.

Well, back outside I go, to finish up removing the rest of the weights...I'm definelty on the right track here, thanks to you guys!! Well, as a wise hillbilly says "and is rich because of it"..time to Get r' Done!

Git r' dun nc, let us know if there is anything else we can do to help.

i cant believe 5 mechanics, yourself, myself and the thousands of members on this site totally missed the brakes.

you are your own best friend here, not me or anyone else here. and if lexus dealer(s) ( i cant remember if you took it to one or two) missed it, there is a problem there as well, because this could have had 3 disastrous endings:

1) you found out your rotors were loose on the freeway at 65-80mph, when the rotor being loose chewed its way through the lug studs and your wheel(s) popped off.

2) You lost all braking because your rotor had enough play to rum the pads and chew them to bits.

3) your ibration shakes so much it works something else loose and causes detreimental suspension/brake damage...

there is no end to the possibilities. I am thanking God you found this flaw out the easy way, in the driveway with the wheel off and the car on jackstands, which, quite frankly is where your car belongs until the problem is corrected. (but you know this :D )

I would never take my car anywhere for service again were i you, because you are your own best mechanic. you know how your car should and shouldnt perform.

Edited January 8, 2006 by ArmyofOne

[nc211]

Thanks Army...hey, I've learned what I know from this site and those on it! So I thank all ya'll for teaching me. Threadcutter, you are right...2 screws per rotor, not one as I had said earlier..my bad. The rear rotors are the same ones I put on a couple months ago, so all is well. I must have bought the wrong ones for the fronts and simply didn't know it because I didn't put them on myself "didn't have the capactiy or guts at the time." So, I will buy the correct ones this week, and fix this problem next weekend. God sakes fella's!! I'm SOOOO FREAKIN' EXCITED to put this thread to rest soon! I'm right there, on the very edge of total completion! I'm at like 98%, and I bet the proper rotors will finish it out completely. Oh, and I will be sending an email to the senior tech at the dealership who had the car for a week or so on what it turned out to be. Not in a mean way or anything, but as a "if you ever have a similiar complaint from someone else, might check the rotors for proper installment." The guy, and the dealership really went above and beyond for me, and for free!!

Well, who's ready for the grand total weight count? I'm all done, pulled off all the weights from the indi shop. Can't stand it can ya'? Oh the anticipation is killing you...Come on NC, tell me, you bast*rd! Ok...the grand total of grams put on my wheels to make these brand new tires balanced, on undamaged rims was.....drum roll please..... 255 grams! I've attached a photo of all the weights laid out on my work bench. Un-freakin'-believable!! They were everywhere! On the insides, outsides, next to eachother, apart...everywhere! If anything, I should tell the indi shop to invest in a Hunter alignment and balancing machine. Hell, I'd even finance it for them, as they're always busy, so I know they're making money. But anyway, I'm now going to let the tires find their own balance for the next 100 miles or so, if they need it at all anyway. I'm gonna take her out for a spin in a few minutes and hit the highway.

Oh, added a couple extra photos too; One of the tires I got, one of the front of the car pulled up to my workshop, one of my workshop "IF YOU DON'T HAVE A TV IN YOURS, GET ONE! GREAT FOR FOOTBALL", and some others of all my old control arms I've replaced. Some of the old stuff I don't have as they were just shot to hell and beyond keeping. But these are actually pretty good. The bushings seem ok.

I'll finish this thread out guys when I know for sure it's all done. My money is on a set of the right kind of rotors will fix everything!

EDIT: I think the pictures are too big, I can't get them to attach. I'll try again later.

Edited January 8, 2006 by nc211

[RFeldes]

What a relief!!!! Lead Constipation is a terrible thing Glad you are on the right track NC, so to speak!

Best of luck Buddy!!

[ArmyofOne]

What a relief!!!! Lead Constipation is a terrible thing Glad you are on the right track NC, so to speak!

Best of luck Buddy!!

NC, you should give me a call. i pmed you the number, i think there is something to this "flaw" with your dealer...

[nc211]

Army, got your pm..I can't call this week as I am slammed right now with work and everything else, plus I'm on the road this weekend for a property inspection and hopefully, just hopefully, a day on the boat, 10 miles out with beer in one, screamin' king fish in the other. It's sheer cauos right now in my life as I'm 3 1/2 months out from my wedding, which has turned into a massive mess. Up to 180 people on the list...babies...idiots...dance lessons...meeting with preacher...yada yada yada. About the only free time I get is a few hours a week by myself to kick back with a beer and my laptop. or here at work in between meetings. So please don't take it personally! I'm just buried under at the moment. Man you should have seen me two weeks ago, trying to get every loan closed before the end of the year. I think I grew another bald spot from all the stress. Thank god for that case of beer on new years eve. Would you believe that I actually had people "work related" calling my cell phone at 8:30 on new years eve? I turned the motherf...... off so I would lose my cool. Do yourself a favor, if you are ever in a position that your empoyeer gives you a cell phone...don't take it. Or if you're forced to take it....break the SOB right away. Anyway...too much caffeine today.

Guys, anyone know where I can get a set of front rotors that have the balancing screw holes in it for my car, without going oem, or having to order them and waiting for them? The stealership wants $145 ea. I can order them online for $90, but probably won't get them in time for this weekend "if not on boat, in garage. or if fish aren't biting, in garage." I was hoping to score some napa or autozones for like $50 each, but I can't find any that have the balancing holes. The ones on my car now are from Carquest. I went by there today to buy some new ones, looked at them and realized "oh snot, these are the ones on my car now....now I remember who made the mistake". Any suggestions amigos?

PS....definately a huge improvement with all of those weights off the car!! The back is glass smooth. All I can feel now are the rotors moving around. A little bit of advice....if you get new tires, and your rims are NOT bent....clean the rims and take off all the weights. I used a fine grit sandpaper and some soap n' water this weekend to clean the insides of mine....not perfect looking...but a ton better! There is no way to bring them back to new looking status on the insides...just too old. But I don't really care.

Edited January 13, 2006 by nc211

[pachocco1]

uh...i missed something....

The rotors are held on in a tempory manner with the small brass screws for safety. Otherwise they would fall off on full wheel removal. Upon tire installation, the lug nuts put restraining torque on both the wheel and rotors.

If your lugs are tight, then your rotors are tight. You can verify this while the car is on a lift with wheels on.

The question is how or whether you have checked to verify the rotors wobble with the wheels on.

[nc211]

The rotors are on tight. I agree with how the rotors are held on the car. But, the "centering" screws are used to make sure the rotor is "center" and balanced when you put the wheel on the car. The two little screws do not actually provide the support to keep the rotor on the car...all they do is make sure the rotor is properly centered..aka...balanced correctly on the hub. So when the wheel spins, the rotor's weight is evenly distributed and not off balance. These rotors are heavy, so any slight off balancing during the installment will create the feeling of a tire being out of balance, when in reality, it's the rotor that is out of balance. Just hanging the rotors on the 5 wheel studs will not make them "centered". However, you are correct that they will be held in place by the wheel lug nuts. BUT, and I can testify on this, they are not LOCKED in place, because my rotors shift in that mm slack when I push the brakes..making them bang against the wheel studs. I use to think it was the pads shifting due to not having the shim kit on them. And they might be shifintg a little. But that banging noise is no doubt the rotor. I should have my rotors tomorrow and replaced this weekend. I'll post up the results when I'm done.