I Think I've Figured It Out

[nc211]

yep, several times. Checked them myself not too long ago when I was changing out the rotors, looked fine. Don't hear any noise in the bearings, no feel of wobble.

Have you put the car in the air and spun the wheels yet?

Bad tires can be unbelivable.

I just took off my 20's for the winter and because the vibration was driving me nuts.

Mine was a bad tire

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[nc211]

I sent this to the service email account. I'll let you know what they say.

To whom it may concern:

My name is xxxx, I should be in your system, with a relatively extensive record. I am writing to express my history and hopefully request the help of your most senior technician. I hope whoever reads this understands that I am not a complainer, and I completely acknowledge the age of my car, problems do happen. I believe I spoke with Sandy Johnson before? Heck, Sandy, Dennis, Tom, Rik, Mark, Josh. I’ve met people there that aren’t there anymore it seems like.

18 months ago I purchased a 1995 LS400 from your dealership with 84k miles. Rik Wall was the salesman that I worked with and was wonderful in every aspect. I purchased the car based upon his comments that the car would have been a CPO if it had not been for the age. He had also mentioned that on the mechanical records jacket it actually said “perfect”. Shortly after I purchased the car the ECU unit showed it’s flaws with the “Off-Throttle Shock” syndrome. The dealership fixed this under the TSB EG00396 procedure. I am sure Mark Striebel probably remembers my name on this problem. In fact, I would bet he probably doesn’t care for me too much. Mark stepped up and did a perfect job in fixing the ECU under warranty and I am happy to say that I have not had that throttle shock problem since. Shortly there after I came in to try and diagnose a vibration / wobble problem. I was told the car needed a balancing / alignment. This eventually turned into “rear carrier bushings need to be replaced, and a good balance and alignment.” To make a long story short, as I am sure your records on me tell the tale already, in the 18 + months and 24k miles that I have owned this car, I have had to replace:

· Upper control arms front and rear

· Lower control arms front and rear

· Strut rods front and rear “fronts installed by Johnson Lexus”

· Motor mounts

· Transmission mount

· Rear differential mounting cushions

· All struts “front passenger side installed by Johnson Lexus”

· Outer tie rods

· Ball joints

· Lower oil pan and seal “installed by Johnson Lexus”

· Oil dipstick seal “installed by Johnson Lexus”

· Engine control computer “installed by Johnson Lexus”

· All brake pads and rotors

· Steering rack cushions

· Rear carrier bushings “installed by Johnson Lexus”

· All stabilizer bar bushings

· 90k service done including timing belt and water pump “condition of original purchase agreement with Johnson Lexus”

After all of these repairs, countless alignments and balance jobs “some done there, some done on other Hunter systems elsewhere,” and several thousand dollars later, I still have that infamous control arm “clunk” in the front. I have a leaking thermostat housing seal that is staining up my driveway, a spastic motorized steering wheel, front seats that are loose and shift from side to side, a passenger side seat belt that barely retracts and that same VIBRATION / WOBBLE in the car’s operation.

All of these parts are Lexus OEM that I have purchased through online discounts given to me from other Lexus Dealerships for my membership in the Lexus Owners Club of America. Except for the brake pads and rotors, they are aftermarket. The tires and wheels have been checked countless times for problems, none reported. Everyone who has looked at this car says the same thing “start with replacing xxxx and keep going until it stops” or I get charged $500+ and told “it’s fixed” but it’s not “case in point; rear carrier bushings”. I’m simply out of money for fixing this 10 year old car. I’ve heard such wonderful things about how reliable and smooth Lexus cars are, especially the LS400. I have also been told by owners, dealers and mechanics that 108,000 miles is nothing for these cars. So why is mine such a lemon? I can fix the leaking thermostat housing seal myself, along with the loose seats and spastic steering wheel motor “I have all the repair manuals and TSB’s on file”. These problems I associate with the car being 10 years old. But I’m out of ideas on the wobble. All I want is someone who knows exactly what to look for to tell me what it is. You should see a track record in your computer that I’ve been up there several times for alignments and balancings. None of which have fixed this problem. This is my first Toyota product, and I can easily see why people love these cars. In fact this car motivated my own father to recently purchase a new Toyota Solara convertible, and a Sienna. However I do not think I’m too far out of line when I say that $3,000+ and 16 months of trying to fix this problem has made me feel a bit like a sucker. I am honestly about out of patience and seriously considering throwing in the towel on a Lexus and head back to an Infiniti I35. They’re not as quiet, nor as nice in my opinion, but they don’t breakdown like this LS400 does. The sole reason why I wanted an LS400 in the first place was for a smooth, quiet and reliable ride. Got the quiet part taken care of, but can’t seem to get the other two, that Lexus is so famous for.

I know this is a tall request, but is it possible for Johnson Lexus to grant me the time and knowledge of their senior technician, on good faith based upon the fact that I’ve spent this much money on trying to fix this problem already? Can they come by my office, take a short ride around the block with me so I can let him/her witness this problem? I would like to show them the dip in the road that makes that “clunk” noise. You can really feel the wobble on the road in front of my office. They can take the car back to the shop and keep it for however long they want it to try and pinpoint the problem. They can drive it home, use it for their personal use to get acquainted with the car if they like. I don’t care; I just want to know what has been wrong for so long? My office is on xxxx Drive, behind the xxxx Hilton on xxxxx Ave. It is the HQ for xxxxxxxx.

I would like to fix the problem and keep the car, but I’m just not willing to throw another couple hundred dollars at it without knowing exactly what is wrong. It is clear that an alignment and/or tire balancing has not and will not fix the problem. If this cannot be done, I clearly understand. I don’t work for free either. I just thought I would give it one last try before I decide to throw in the towel.

[ArmyofOne]

NC, its the flux Capacitor. Replace it and your wobble will go away.

In all actuality, I have a hunch. A friend's LS430 had a VERY similar problem to what you are describing a year ago. I finally narrowed it down to a warped halfshaft. The alxe that goes from the differential to the wheel, it was just SLIGHTLY out of line.

Put the car up on jackstands (rear only), and start it. have a friend put it in drive and let off the brake. With no weight the wheels should spin forward under their own powr, with no accelerator pressure. Watch the left rear halfshaft and tell me what you see. I am willing to bet thats your wobble. When they warp, its not usually enough to see, just enough to be felt. And no, it wont do any permanent damage to the differential unless its bent really bad, or it breaks. Rare that they break. I see this all the time on Humvees, which ironically, use a very similar setup to the LS400 in the rear. Upper and lower control arms, upper and lower ball joints, strut rods, etc. I see warped drive axles alot.

I also would recomend replacing your tires, but thats because im brand loyal to one kind of tire: Falken Zeix ZE-512's B)

Call me and we can discuss further. 803-556-1710.

[nc211]

If I replace the Flux Capacitor, and get my 1.21 gigawatts "what the hell is a gigawatt?" Will I get my rockstar hair back from the early 90's?

Josh, thanks man! I've got a growing list of questions to ask Lexus about, especially Blake's lurching question that we all seem to suffer from. Your suggestion sounds like the EXACT problem. Thanks bubba!

Man, I'm gonna call you soon, trust me! But please understand that I hate the phone. I'm on it all day long with lawyers, bankers and idiots. It's tough for me to pick up the phone at the end of the day and have any sort of energy to have a real conversation. My office has me strapped to a blackberry, pager and one of those Trio' things. I keep telling them that all I need is the Trio', but it falls on deaf ears. These people still think the dot-matrix printer is the coolest thing since the TV remote control. I actually apologize to those standing behind me when I go through the airport security screen. Takes me twice as long than most. I wouldn't doubt that wearing all that crap has altered my genetic code and messed with my Duke boys in some fashion or another. But, it pays the bills.

[nc211]

Well I've got to hand it to the dealership. Their top brass tech is meeting me here at my office tomorrow morning for a spin around the block, and bringing me a free loaner car....the IS They're gonna take a look and tell me what's wrong for free. Now you can't beat that! Especially when my car is 10 years old, and cost 1/6th of what the new ones cost.

[morg96ls400]

Awesome, eager to hear what they find, I still have the exact same problem!

Good luck!

[maxed_out]

NC, good luck. I'm going out on a limb and gonna say its either 1.cv joint connection to differential or 2. slighly out of round rim. I had number 1, the inner cv joint was not fully seated to the diff and she wobbled pretty good. The warp from the previous post seems like a great possibility too.

In any event looks like you'll get answer.

Maybe we should start a pool?

[nc211]

Thanks guys. I'm ready for this to come to an end, that's for sure. I'm in agreement that it's probably in the driveshaft area too, especially since:

1) Car suffered from off throttle shock syndrome for god only knows how long before I bought it. For those of you who don't know what that is; it's a bad engine computer that sends faulty code to engine around 40 mph to cut back on fuel delivery to the engine too quickly when you take your foot off the gas. This created extensive reverse torque in the driveshaft, causing the car to buckle back and forth extensively.

2) Differential mounting cushions were ripped apart.

3) I suffer from that awful lurch when putting it into gear when engine is cold...just like Blake. I'm going to ask about this problem too.

This makes me think there is damage to something in there that can't be seen by the untrained eye. The earlier models never suffered from the throttle shock problem, and they seem to not have this wobble thing. Nor do the later models from 98 on when they went to drive-by-wire in the throttle setup. Just seems to be the 95-97 years.

I'll let you know what they find out.

Maxed, if they can't fix this, the only pool we'll need is the one I'm going to jump in!

[ArmyofOne]

Thanks guys.  I'm ready for this to come to an end, that's for sure. I'm in agreement that it's probably in the driveshaft area too, especially since:

1) Car suffered from off throttle shock syndrome for god only knows how long before I bought it. For those of you who don't know what that is; it's a bad engine computer that sends faulty code to engine around 40 mph to cut back on fuel delivery to the engine too quickly when you take your foot off the gas. This created extensive reverse torque in the driveshaft, causing the car to buckle back and forth extensively.

2) Differential mounting cushions were ripped apart.

3) I suffer from that awful lurch when putting it into gear when engine is cold...just like Blake. I'm going to ask about this problem too.

This makes me think there is damage to something in there that can't be seen by the untrained eye. The earlier models never suffered from the throttle shock problem, and they seem to not have this wobble thing. Nor do the later models from 98 on when they went to drive-by-wire in the throttle setup. Just seems to be the 95-97 years.

I'll let you know what they find out.

Maxed, if they can't fix this, the only pool we'll need is the one I'm going to jump in!

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Nah, bring it to me. I WILL solve it. If it was built by a human, than it can be fixed by a human.

last resort though. i'm willing to bet i narrowed it down over the net for you. :)

I see it all the time with hummvee's, because the damned operators will drive them until literally, the wheels fall off. i had one come in just today that needed drive axles and diff mounts because the jackass operator decided he was going to try to climb over a rock, and smackedthe diff as he slid off the thing, Bringing both rear wheels off the ground, snapping the mounts for the diff and shoving the diff up into the bed of the humvee, thus high-centering himself most effectively.

[nc211]

Hahaha. Now that's what I call 4 wheelin' when you bust the differential.

Well the car is in the right hands now. We took it out for a spin this morning, however I was concerned because we're below freezing this morning and it stiffened up the car, it wasn't doing it as bad. But this guy knows everything about these cars. He told me he personally owns a 96'. The car "faintly" did the wobble right at 40mph, and he spotted it right from the get go. So, what he says is the problem, I will believe 100%. Also, Blake, he was about your height, and I can easily see why you need more room now. He looked like a grownup crawling into a kid's go cart. He did not look comfortable at all. They're going to start with putting on new tires and rims and see if that fixes it. They're going to do it right, by the process of elimination.

The technician brought with him my entire printed out history. :o The thing was over an inch thick! I was shocked myself. He said "you're right, you do have an extensive history with us". I looked at the stack and thought to myself "you're holding what should be my plasma tv in your hands".

He also mentioned that they've had a huge problem with the 95 ECU units, and some early 96's that had the same unit. He thinks it might be in the driveshaft area due to that severe off throttle shock the car suffered from for so long. Thinks the reverse torque might have stressed out some "soft" parts in the line. So, we'll see! I don't care what he comes back with, don't care how much it costs either...I just want to know so I can get back to enjoying this beast and drive it for once without listening for this, sensing for that.

[Leadfoot]

I just want to know so I can get back to enjoying this beast and drive it for once without listening for this, sensing for that.

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Been following this thread since the beginning and you are one hell of determined character. Really looking forward to see who the culprit is, its better than a detective novel.

Good luck NC, you will crack it for sure. Nothing beats perseverance, and like ArmyofOne says, if its made by a human...........

Its also really good to see someone update their thread too, makes for an excellent resource in the future.

Keep up the good fight!

[ArmyofOne]

Hahaha. Now that's what I call 4 wheelin' when you bust the differential.

Well the car is in the right hands now. We took it out for a spin this morning, however I was concerned because we're below freezing this morning and it stiffened up the car, it wasn't doing it as bad. But this guy knows everything about these cars. He told me he personally owns a 96'. The car "faintly" did the wobble right at 40mph, and he spotted it right from the get go. So, what he says is the problem, I will believe 100%. Also, Blake, he was about your height, and I can easily see why you need more room now. He looked like a grownup crawling into a kid's go cart. He did not look comfortable at all. They're going to start with putting on new tires and rims and see if that fixes it. They're going to do it right, by the process of elimination.

The technician brought with him my entire printed out history.  :o  The thing was over an inch thick! I was shocked myself. He said "you're right, you do have an extensive history with us". I looked at the stack and thought to myself "you're holding what should be my plasma tv in your hands".

He also mentioned that they've had a huge problem with the 95 ECU units, and some early 96's that had the same unit. He thinks it might be in the driveshaft area due to that severe off throttle shock the car suffered from for so long. Thinks the reverse torque might have stressed out some "soft" parts in the line. So, we'll see! I don't care what he comes back with, don't care how much it costs either...I just want to know so I can get back to enjoying this beast and drive it for once without listening for this, sensing for that.

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Damn NC, good to hear. sounds like an experienced mechanic. Have them put a set fo wheels and tires from another car like yours on it and see if it does it on your car still if so put your wheels back on, cause it aint them. hopefully they dont charge you for it.

sounds like he knows what he is doing. :)

BLAKE: if your reading this, call me, i aint heard from ya in a while, im kinda worried

[nc211]

Thanks guys. Well they've still got it, haven't heard a peep from them all day long. So they must be taking their time, which is what I wanted them to do to make sure it's properly diagnoised and not "patched". So we'll see. I actually hope the car is sitting in the guys driveway and he's getting used to it, but probably at the dealership. They gave me an es330 instead of the is300....must have been that comment about going back to an infiniti i35. :whistles: . Anyway, he said he's in the shop tomorrow too, so probably will hear something tomorrow. Probably during the one football game I watch with sheer religion.... Alabama v. Auburn...Roll Tide!!

[SKperformance]

Hopefully it is not like mine, while i changed my diff fluid over to Redline 75w90 synthetic i noticed the rear subframe/carrier is off by 2mm on the left side.After feeling the piping i notice i tiny buldge on the left rear corner.So it ever so slightly bends up higher on the left than the right.

It now makes sense to me as i always have the left rear corner lower than the rest of the car after i adjust and readjust the damn shocks height. It is also the corner where i had the vibrations ad the bad tire also.

It basically came from the previous owner who must have smacked a curb as there is no repaint on the 1/4's.

Oh well ,one day i will get a new one.

Time for an alignment

[nc211]

Update: Dealership called, one thing they found wrong was the rear passenger strut was twisted at the base on the control arm by 20 degrees, causing a binding that was preventing the strut from compressing normally that will accelerate the rear control arm bushing wearing out. Tires are dead on center with balancing...but did detect some runout on the tires themselves. When asked if he honestly felt that this was the cause of the wobble matched by the car's age, he said "no way, what you've got going on is not normal at all." This guy is goooooood!! :D He's circling in to the driveshaft area. I told him to take his time, I'm in no rush to get the car back w/o his full diagnosis being run first.

more updates to come.

[nc211]

....11/28....still waiting. Last update was that a "donor" car was found and they're going to go part by part in the suspension and drive shaft area to pinpoint the problem..... carry on ;)

[nc211]

Fixed!! Fixed!! Fixed!!! :D B) ;) :cheers: :cheers:

And the culprit was.....drum roll please......

Twisted shock absorber, a loose bolt in the rear passenger side lower control arm and bad tire(s) somewhere on the car. Road force testing did not show which tire it was, but new tires were put on from another car, and the ride quality did leaps and bounds foward! No more wobble, no more anything other than smoothness and quietness. Get this, they also went ahead and fixed my leak and my spastic steering wheel for free! Now you tell me another dealership that would do that for your 10 year old car??? My dealership treated me like I had purchased their most expensive car on the lot, when in all reality I bought one of their cheapest 18+ months ago!

Johnson Lexus of Raleigh....I stand behind them and their service!

On a side note to all who have that lurch. It is normal. I asked my mechanic about it, and remember he owned a 96 personally, and is the dealership's top mechanic. He said it is due to the federal regulations put in place in that year that required Toyota to program the computer to hold a higher idle during warm-up to reduce pollution. Now granted, the cars did not do that when they were new, but with 100k miles on them, it's just a normal characteristic of age. It's nothing that will break or do damage to the car, it's just normal. I asked him about the flex-couplings on the ends of the prop. shaft and if replacing them would make a difference, he said probably not, and that I shouldn't waste my money on trying to fix it, as it's a characteristic of all parts connected in the sequence. There is no one silver bullet part that will stop it from lurching at 1,500 rpm.

But anyway....I can now finally put this thread to rest! Oh man, I can't wait to get my car back later today!!! I miss the LS400! The ES330 is sweet, but that electronic throttle set up on that car drives me nuts. And I've about pushed my luck with not getting a speeding ticket. It handles a lot better than my LS does....it's like screaming around in a go-cart! No body lean or anything.

[dcfish]

Fixed!! Fixed!! Fixed!!!   :D      B)  ;):cheers::cheers:

And the culprit was.....drum roll please......

Twisted shock absorber, a loose bolt in the rear passenger side lower control arm and bad tire(s) somewhere on the car. Road force testing did not show which tire it was, but new tires were put on from another car, and the ride quality did leaps and bounds foward! No more wobble, no more anything other than smoothness and quietness. Get this, they also went ahead and fixed my leak and my spastic steering wheel for free! Now you tell me another dealership that would do that for your 10 year old car??? My dealership treated me like I had purchased their most expensive car on the lot, when in all reality I bought one of their cheapest 18+ months ago!

Johnson Lexus of Raleigh....I stand behind them and their service!

On a side note to all who have that lurch. It is normal. I asked my mechanic about it, and remember he owned a 96 personally, and is the dealership's top mechanic. He said it is due to the federal regulations put in place in that year that required Toyota to program the computer to hold a higher idle during warm-up to reduce pollution. Now granted, the cars did not do that when they were new, but with 100k miles on them, it's just a normal characteristic of age. It's nothing that will break or do damage to the car, it's just normal. I asked him about the flex-couplings on the ends of the prop. shaft and if replacing them would make a difference, he said probably not, and that I shouldn't waste my money on trying to fix it, as it's a characteristic of all parts connected in the sequence. There is no one silver bullet part that will stop it from lurching at 1,500 rpm.

But anyway....I can now finally put this thread to rest! Oh man, I can't wait to get my car back later today!!! I miss the LS400! The ES330 is sweet, but that electronic throttle set up on that car drives me nuts. And I've about pushed my luck with not getting a speeding ticket. It handles a lot better than my LS does....it's like screaming around in a go-cart! No body lean or anything.

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nc211, I have been folowing this thread and I am sure glad you found the problem, Who would have known it was a twisted shock.

[nc211]

Thanks DC, yeah I would have NEVER guessed a twisted strut was causing some binding and stressing out the bushings in a billion years. Dave "mechanic" knows his stuff! I just can't wait to get back in my car, and have that steering wheel drop down into my lap and cruise on!

[ArmyofOne]

Thanks DC, yeah I would have NEVER guessed a twisted strut was causing some binding and stressing out the bushings in a billion years.   Dave "mechanic" knows his stuff! I just can't wait to get back in my car, and have that steering wheel drop down into my lap and cruise on!

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Good to hear, even though i wasnt spot on (i was hoping i was B) ) I am glad you have it sorted out. Now drive up here and see me, im bored. and i havent driven a nice smooth LS in awhile.

and you have to see the escort too... :)

[sha4000]

i havent posted much in this thread but ive been following it also and im glad that your problem was fixed nc, i give a big thumbs up to the dealership also

[blake918]

Also, Blake, he was about your height, and I can easily see why you need more room now. He looked like a grownup crawling into a kid's go cart. He did not look comfortable at all.

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LOL The scarifices we make to drive such a fine auto (I don't know if I can keep going much longer though)!?!?!

Robert, this is fantastic news!!! I'm sure she's going to feel like a new car when she comes back! You really deserve the smooth ride after all of the work you've put in to the car!!

[nc211]

I can definately tell the difference that twisted shock made to the ride of the car. Now that it's lined up correctly, the side to side wobble is gone. No more feeling like the car is pulling itself like in a game of tug & war. I can feel the bad tires in the back though, but barely and very very faintly. That doesn't bother me though because at least now I know what it is for sure. Man, it sure was nice getting back into my car after being out of it for 10 days. I almost forgot how big and lumbersome it really is, and I love it! Blake, yeah man, after that picture, you need an american or euro car amigo. I'm afraid that Japoneese cars won't fit you right in general. They've always made the interiors small like that for some reason?? You'd think that since they've pretty much mastered everything else in a car, they'd master the many aspects of "American" drivers? For me, at 5'10 and a buck 65, the LS fits fine, like a pair of loose shoes. Anywho, I appreciate all the good feedback on this thread "Army ;) " and very thankful the car is actually back to normal. Nothing leaking, squeeking, rattling or shaking. Oh my god, wait, nothing is wrong? Give me time though, I'm sure I'll come up with something. Oh yeah, need to drain the fluids soon....whew, that was close. For me these days, free time = discussions with the soon to be wife about floral patterns and china . Like I want to do that!

[ArmyofOne]

you are welcome LOL.

[RFeldes]

HOOOYA!!! So glad to hear it NC as I was feeling all your pain, but knew you would perservere and your A$$ would be saved.. Frame It !!! The shock that is..lol Happy for you.