Power Steering Groan

[texxclark]

I drive a 1991 Lexus ls 400 with about 88,000 miles on it. This car as been in my family since new and I am starting to have a few problems.

First about 3 weeks ago when i returned to school in Miami I noticed that my air conditioner is having problems. First, It is only blowing hot air when on, the fan is still powerfull, but no matter what my temp set is at, it goes from warmer to hotter. I am wondering if this sounds to be more of a coolant type of deal or compressor, or what? All of the indicator lights on the settings are functioning properly if this helps.

Second, soon after i noticed this, I also noticed a groan when turning my steering wheel. This ONLY happens the first time i turn on the car in the morning. For about the first 5 minutes, their is a loud groan when moving the wheel. At the same time im hearing a "high pitch whirring"noise from under the hood. When popping the hood, it is clear that the sound is coming from the cylinder marked power steering fluid.

After a few minutes the noise subsides and the groanig is no longer present. This wont happen upon starting the car after clases or such, only after the car has benn sitting for 8+ hours. Any insight on these problems will be helpful.

If anyone has any price guess for service at a lexus dealer let me know.

Thanks for everyones help

[Shaggz]

First of all, I know the noise of which you speak, all too well...I recently replaced my p/s pump, air control valve and pressure hose in order to squash that maddening whine. All is well now though and I'm quite pleased with the results :)

Take it to the Lexus dealer as a last resort. It might seem like a good idea, but they'll just charge you $100 in order to tell you to put on a new power steering pump and pressure hose, possibly the rack as well. Then they'll happily charge you somewhere around $2000 for all those parts and the service to put them in. I did all that myself for about $500 (not the rack though).

How is the p/s fluid level? Does it show any signs of leakage? Do you see red fluid (ATF) anywhere around the lower part of the pump, on the pressure hose, around the alternator, or even pooled in the topside of the under cover?

You may just need a new air control valve (part #17630-16040). In Atlanta, that's a $140 part from Lexus dealer, but only $90 part at Toyota dealer. Not sure about your area. But this is the part that bolts onto the bottom of the pump and has two vacuum hoses attached to it - one of which leads up toward the intake manifold (underneath the Lexus emblem on the engine). Check for any fluid in that hose, there should be none, but if the acv is bad there will probably be some. Also, if this is the problem you'll most likely see a puff of white smoke from the tailpipe at startup.

The pump and related parts should last 150k miles, so failure of the pump, hose or rack would be premature in your case, although possible. Dig around this forum for info on p/s pump replacement and/or timing belt replacement. There are posts in the workshop tutorials that will give you some more insight as to the particular components related to the steering pump.

I believe the timing belt and water pump should be replaced at 90k miles, so I guess it could be something related to that, although I'm not sure why that would cause a whine from the p/s pump, but what do I know? I'm certainly not a professional mechanic, just an experienced DIYer.

I have to also recommend visiting www.lexls.com, he has some awesome tuturials with good pics you might find useful.

Good luck!!

[tmccormick]

I have the same car, same problem. Well, actualy 1990 with about 160,000 miles. I know it sounds rediculous, it seems like the P/S fluid vanishes, it doesn't show any signs of leeking . . . trust me I've been looking. We add P/S fluid every week almost, more when it's cold out believe it or not. When it is cold out, if the P/S fluid is not kept to the max, that groaning and whirring you mentioned was very bad in my car. Would happen every morning for about 5 minutes and was ok after it warmed up. The groaning durring turns would still happen although the whirring noise stopped. You can feel that the steering column is stiff as well. Since we seem to have been pooring money into the car, we're putting off getting the pump replaced. My best temporary fix to sugest for you is to add fluid, and keep it full. This does it for me.

[silvermate]

I drive a 1991 Lexus ls 400 with about 88,000 miles on it

WOW thats amazing! i bet she's a beauty, have a pic of her.

[texxclark]

no pic yet, but i did just get a digital camera for the holidays. will add one soon.

I love the car, and these are the first two problems ive encountered, other than clock lcd being burnt out, but dont care about that.

Ihave a few options to work with.

and note, im not a diy'er, trust me

Anyways, i suppose i can take it to either a Lexus or Toyota dealer down here,

I can take it to a place called Japanese Car Care specialists, who stated that they use all factory parts as needed and will provide a 12 month 12000 mile warranty on any work.

And finally, there is a shop i have worked with down here that i used to take my nissan to and i have had good luck as they seem to be very reliable and honest. (I took my nissan to the nissan dealer and they told me i the burning smell i smelled was the clutch, and that it needed to be replaced. This shop informed me that i simply had a plastic bag sucked onto my manifold and melted. Charged me only 25$ for the pressure washing and time spent diagnosing the problem)

Further more, this third option told me that they run an AC diagnostic on my car for 85$ where they feel with appropriate freon and a ultraviolet dye, which will show exactly where the leak would be, if thats the problem. How does this sound?

[silvermate]

take it to the independant shop, (if you trust them) they are a helluva lot cheaper than the Lexus stealer.

[Shaggz]

...I know it sounds rediculous, it seems like the P/S fluid vanishes, it doesn't show any signs of leeking . . . trust me I've been looking...

←

Hmm...the fluid MUST be going somewhere. Refilling weekly indicates there is definitely a substantial leak somewhere.

Keep in mind, it probably won't leak unless the car is running and you've turned the steering wheel a few times. Are you sure there's no fluid along the bottom of the engine compartment, say below the alternator or something? That's just amazing that it disappears, but I've heard others mention they've found fluid pooled in the boots on the rack when the rack was leaking. You might check there..

Let us know if you find it

[ylekiot1]

Shaggz is right. I had this issue with the groaning and power steering fluid loss on my 90. The air idle swith on the power steering pump was bad. It pumps air to the air intake manifold when the steering wheel is at full lock to increase idle speed to offset the engine power drain from the PS pump. Your fluid is leaking into the air hose that goes from the bottom of the power steering pump to the front top of the engine and the fluid is burned off during combustion. It is the small single hose at the front center top of the engine. Pull off the hose. If there is fluid lining the hose in there you will see/smell it! I AM POSITIVE THIS IS WHERE IT IS GOING! This is talked about in previous discussions all over. I had that air switch replaced and the groaning is gone and the fluid stopped disappearing. I think the groaning was caused by the air getting into the power steering system due to the leak between the two components. Anyway, when they replaced the switch, the also got the air out of the power steering system. The steering is dramatically better since this was fixed and the noises are gone.

I kept adding fluid for awhile after I knew what was wrong and where it was going. I can't say for sure but I think the power steering fluid over time fouled out my O2 pre cat sensors. They failed during this time period when the PS fluid was being burned off during combustion before I finally got it fixed. On a side note, I never saw any white smoke from the exhaust at startup even though this was leaking and burning off.

I hope this solves your issue as it did mine!

B)

[Lexls]

Time takes its toll and so do miles. Your pump probably just needs a rebuild as do all LS pumps at some time or another. I had a sound relating to my PS system a long time ago and it turned out that the rack was bad. Once the rack was replaced the sound was gone. The sound is most likely going to come from the pump but the problem could really be any of the parts in the system.

[Tote]

How can you determine or test to see if the rack is the culprit? My PS pump was leaking ang I had the Pump and High pressure hose replaced. I also put a Magnefilter (transmission fluid filter with Magnet) on the low pressure return hose. I also flushed the power steering fluid as stated on your (Lexls) site. Also cleaned screen on rack.

System still squeals or groans for the first 5 mins of the day and every once in a while, when I turn a corner, I can feel a power seering issue. Very fustrating to say the least. I do not see white smoke, and my fluid level has not changed since the pump and hose have been changed out. The pump I hvee now is the second one, as I returned the first one thinking it was faulty.

I've assumed since I hear the whine at the pump it must be the pump. Now I wonder about the rack, and how to diagnose it. I'm going to go insane if I can't figure this out.

Any help would be appreciated

Tote

[99lsguy]

How can you determine or test to see if the rack is the culprit?  My PS pump was leaking ang I had the Pump and High pressure hose replaced. I also put a Magnefilter (transmission fluid filter with Magnet) on the low pressure return hose. I also flushed the power steering fluid as stated on your (Lexls) site.  Also cleaned screen on rack.

System still squeals or groans for the first 5 mins of the day and every once in a while, when I turn a corner, I can feel a power seering issue. Very fustrating to say the least.  I do not see white smoke, and my fluid level has not changed since the pump and hose have been changed out. The pump I hvee now is the second one, as I returned the first one thinking it was faulty.

I've assumed since I hear the whine at the pump it must be the pump. Now I wonder about the rack, and how to diagnose it. I'm going to go insane if I can't figure this out.

Any help would be appreciated

Tote

←

Hey tote,

Have you done a complete "bleeding" of the air in sytem?  Turning steering wheel L to R about 3-4 cycles with engine off  (and PS reservoir cap OFF or at least loose)  -

then started car with cap on loosely and done the same thing again?

You kinda need a couple of jack behind the front wheels on the lift locations - just enough to get front wheels off garage floor.  Then, after these procedures... leave ps reservoir cap OFF ALL NIGHT to purge any more air.  Leave yourself a reminder (sticky note) on the steering wheel to tighten it up before heading out the next day..........

[ArmyofOne]

I have the same car, same problem.  Well, actualy 1990 with about 160,000 miles.  I know it sounds rediculous, it seems like the P/S fluid vanishes, it doesn't show any signs of leeking . . . trust me I've been looking.  We add P/S fluid every week almost, more when it's cold out believe it or not.  When it is cold out, if the P/S fluid is not kept to the max, that groaning and whirring you mentioned was very bad in my car.  Would happen every morning for about 5 minutes and was ok after it warmed up.  The groaning durring turns would still happen although the whirring noise stopped. You can feel that the steering column is stiff as well.  Since we seem to have been pooring money into the car, we're putting off getting the pump replaced.  My best temporary fix to sugest for you is to add fluid, and keep it full.  This does it for me.

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when you first start it up, iopen the hood, get out and pull the cap off the power steering resivoir for a second and then replace it. ill bet your noise goes away. unfortunately, this si something o have to do EVERY morning in my ES.

if you are near to JPI, i would HIGHLY reccomend his services.

that was for you Tmccormick, you are in dallas, and JPI is right around the corner, in garland. he will save you TONS! and he does insane work. also, his work wont void your warranty.

[TexasLexus94]

I have the same problem with the disappearing P/S fluid, so I'm going to change out the air control valve. I just got under the car, and found that none of my box wrenches can access the valve nut, due to the restricted space with the alternator right underneath, and the length of the wrenches, which hit all kinds of stuff near the valve. Is there a special tool that I need to loosen and tighten the valve? I'm hoping to avoid having to remove other adjacent equipment, like alternators. It would seem to be an easy changeout-if I can just access the nut.

Thanks for your help.

[leo]

Hey TexasLExus94,

I have replaced my ACV (air control valve). I had to buy a stuby 17mm open end wrench to loosen it. The only place I found this tool was at Sears but you might be able to locate in another store. When loosen. be carefull when removing as fluid come out of there. Be sure to cover the alternator as to prevent any fluid from getting into it. I do not know if it makes a difference, but I marked the hoses to install in the correct way. Also you need to bleed the power steering system after installing ACV and adding ATF Dextron II fluid to proper level(due to loosing after removal of ACV).

[TexasLexus94]

Hey TexasLExus94,

I have replaced my ACV (air control valve). I had to buy a stuby 17mm open end wrench to loosen it. The only place I found this tool was at Sears but you might be able to locate in another store. When loosen. be carefull when removing as fluid come out of there. Be sure to cover the alternator as to prevent any fluid from getting into it. I do not know if it makes a difference, but I marked the hoses to install in the correct way. Also you need to bleed the power steering system after installing ACV and adding ATF Dextron II fluid to proper level(due to loosing after removal of ACV).

←

Thanks, Leo. You pretty much answered all my questions. I'll have to search the forum to find out how to bleed the system, but it shouldn't be a problem. Again, thanks.

Tex

[mouser991]

I had the exact same problem with my 91 ls. I read somewhere about a valve that would go bad on the power steering pump, which would then cause power steering fluid to be sucked into the engine. At startup smoke would roll out of the exhaust and then clear up. The pump would whine and I was constantly adding fluid. I could never find any signs of leaking. I went to the parts department at the Toyota dealer and ordered the valve ($90). You can get it off without removing the alternator. I used what is called a crowsfoot (17mm). It is basically the open end of a box-end wrench with a place to insert a socket wrench. I used a 3 inch extension and got the valve off in no time. Leo is right about covering your alternator, I didn't do it before removing the valve and fluid leaked all over it. 1 week now and still no leaks, smoke or whine. THIS FORUM RULES!!!

[ArmyofOne]

I had the exact same problem with my 91 ls. I read somewhere about a valve that would go bad on the power steering pump, which would then cause power steering fluid to be sucked into the engine. At startup smoke would roll out of the exhaust and then clear up. The pump would whine and I was constantly adding fluid. I could never find any signs of leaking. I went to the parts department at the Toyota dealer and ordered the valve ($90). You can get it off without removing the alternator. I used what is called a crowsfoot (17mm). It is basically the open end of a box-end wrench with a place to insert a socket wrench. I used a 3 inch extension and got the valve off in no time. Leo is right about covering your alternator, I didn't do it before removing the valve and fluid leaked all over it. 1 week now and still no leaks, smoke or whine.  THIS FORUM RULES!!!

←

how the hell can you suck fluid into the engoine? the hoses dont connect to the engine anywhere. there isnt any way for it to get in.

[atoyoT]

I had the exact same problem with my 91 ls. I read somewhere about a valve that would go bad on the power steering pump, which would then cause power steering fluid to be sucked into the engine. At startup smoke would roll out of the exhaust and then clear up. The pump would whine and I was constantly adding fluid. I could never find any signs of leaking. I went to the parts department at the Toyota dealer and ordered the valve ($90). You can get it off without removing the alternator. I used what is called a crowsfoot (17mm). It is basically the open end of a box-end wrench with a place to insert a socket wrench. I used a 3 inch extension and got the valve off in no time. Leo is right about covering your alternator, I didn't do it before removing the valve and fluid leaked all over it. 1 week now and still no leaks, smoke or whine.   THIS FORUM RULES!!!

←

how the hell can you suck fluid into the engoine? the hoses dont connect to the engine anywhere. there isnt any way for it to get in.

←

Let me take a stab at it.

From what I understand the valve is simply a pressure activated vacuum switch that speeds up the engine idle when it encounters high PSI as when the wheel is turned at low engine speeds. It acts just like a bad transmission vacuum modulator will when it goes bad, tranny fluid (in this case PS fluid) will get sucked into the engine if the diaphragm within is ruptured.

[ArmyofOne]

I had the exact same problem with my 91 ls. I read somewhere about a valve that would go bad on the power steering pump, which would then cause power steering fluid to be sucked into the engine. At startup smoke would roll out of the exhaust and then clear up. The pump would whine and I was constantly adding fluid. I could never find any signs of leaking. I went to the parts department at the Toyota dealer and ordered the valve ($90). You can get it off without removing the alternator. I used what is called a crowsfoot (17mm). It is basically the open end of a box-end wrench with a place to insert a socket wrench. I used a 3 inch extension and got the valve off in no time. Leo is right about covering your alternator, I didn't do it before removing the valve and fluid leaked all over it. 1 week now and still no leaks, smoke or whine.   THIS FORUM RULES!!!

←

how the hell can you suck fluid into the engoine? the hoses dont connect to the engine anywhere. there isnt any way for it to get in.

←

Let me take a stab at it.

From what I understand the valve is simply a pressure activated vacuum switch that speeds up the engine idle when it encounters high PSI as when the wheel is turned at low engine speeds. It acts just like a bad transmission vacuum modulator will when it goes bad, tranny fluid (in this case PS fluid) will get sucked into the engine if the diaphragm within is ruptured.

←

what im getting at, is the power steering system is a closed sytem. or at least it is in every car i have ever worked on.

this includes my current one.

[daffy]

I had the exact same problem with my 91 ls. I read somewhere about a valve that would go bad on the power steering pump, which would then cause power steering fluid to be sucked into the engine. At startup smoke would roll out of the exhaust and then clear up. The pump would whine and I was constantly adding fluid. I could never find any signs of leaking. I went to the parts department at the Toyota dealer and ordered the valve ($90). You can get it off without removing the alternator. I used what is called a crowsfoot (17mm). It is basically the open end of a box-end wrench with a place to insert a socket wrench. I used a 3 inch extension and got the valve off in no time. Leo is right about covering your alternator, I didn't do it before removing the valve and fluid leaked all over it. 1 week now and still no leaks, smoke or whine.   THIS FORUM RULES!!!

←

how the hell can you suck fluid into the engoine? the hoses dont connect to the engine anywhere. there isnt any way for it to get in.

←

Let me take a stab at it.

From what I understand the valve is simply a pressure activated vacuum switch that speeds up the engine idle when it encounters high PSI as when the wheel is turned at low engine speeds. It acts just like a bad transmission vacuum modulator will when it goes bad, tranny fluid (in this case PS fluid) will get sucked into the engine if the diaphragm within is ruptured.

←

what im getting at, is the power steering system is a closed sytem. or at least it is in every car i have ever worked on.

this includes my current one.

←

Hi ArmyofOne,

When I rebuilt my pump, I was using air to blow dry some of the parts including this "valve" and without knowing what happened, I blew something out of this housing and didn't find out until I installed the pump. I was adding oil to the pump and it would never fill because it was going directly into the intake of the engine. I knew right away where the problem was and proceeded to take the "valve" out. There is supposed to be a piston inside with an "o-ring" on this piston to prevent oil by-pass. Well I could not find this piston anywhere (looked for two days, I must have blew it into outer space) so I made my own in a machine shop. It now has over 200,000 klms so far and works just fine, lucky me! A new valve is $269.00cdn!! It cost me nothing to fix it myself. So now I understand how it works and how the oil can get into the intake when the "o-ring" goes. If anyone has to repair one of these valves, just blow a little air in one end and catch that piston, then replace the "o-ring" from any place that sells seals, bearings etc. Make sure that the o-ring can take high pressure and can stand-up to oil. re-install and problem solved!

Just in case you don't know what this valve does, it increases the engine speed when turning your wheels at idle so the engine doesn't stall, much like the air-conditioning does when it's on. So it is a useful and needed valve. Hope this helps. Daffy :)

[99lsguy]

Thanks, Leo.  You pretty much answered all my questions.  I'll have to search the forum to find out how to bleed the system, but it shouldn't be a problem.  Again, thanks.

Tex

←

Tex, check my post a few spots above.........that's how to "bleed" the system...

[mouser991]

there are 2 vacuum hoses attached to the valve which screws into the underneath side of the power steering pump. Apparently the purpose of the valve is to cause the engine idle to increase when the steering is turned all the way to either end lock. When the valve goes bad it sticks in the open position and actually siphons power steering fluid into the engine. I thought it was crazy when I first read about it but replacing the valve worked. No more whining from the pump and no more smoke at startup!

[ArmyofOne]

I had the exact same problem with my 91 ls. I read somewhere about a valve that would go bad on the power steering pump, which would then cause power steering fluid to be sucked into the engine. At startup smoke would roll out of the exhaust and then clear up. The pump would whine and I was constantly adding fluid. I could never find any signs of leaking. I went to the parts department at the Toyota dealer and ordered the valve ($90). You can get it off without removing the alternator. I used what is called a crowsfoot (17mm). It is basically the open end of a box-end wrench with a place to insert a socket wrench. I used a 3 inch extension and got the valve off in no time. Leo is right about covering your alternator, I didn't do it before removing the valve and fluid leaked all over it. 1 week now and still no leaks, smoke or whine.   THIS FORUM RULES!!!

←

how the hell can you suck fluid into the engoine? the hoses dont connect to the engine anywhere. there isnt any way for it to get in.

←

Let me take a stab at it.

From what I understand the valve is simply a pressure activated vacuum switch that speeds up the engine idle when it encounters high PSI as when the wheel is turned at low engine speeds. It acts just like a bad transmission vacuum modulator will when it goes bad, tranny fluid (in this case PS fluid) will get sucked into the engine if the diaphragm within is ruptured.

←

what im getting at, is the power steering system is a closed sytem. or at least it is in every car i have ever worked on.

this includes my current one.

←

Hi ArmyofOne,

When I rebuilt my pump, I was using air to blow dry some of the parts including this "valve" and without knowing what happened, I blew something out of this housing and didn't find out until I installed the pump. I was adding oil to the pump and it would never fill because it was going directly into the intake of the engine. I knew right away where the problem was and proceeded to take the "valve" out. There is supposed to be a piston inside with an "o-ring" on this piston to prevent oil by-pass. Well I could not find this piston anywhere (looked for two days, I must have blew it into outer space) so I made my own in a machine shop. It now has over 200,000 klms so far and works just fine, lucky me! A new valve is $269.00cdn!! It cost me nothing to fix it myself. So now I understand how it works and how the oil can get into the intake when the "o-ring" goes. If anyone has to repair one of these valves, just blow a little air in one end and catch that piston, then replace the "o-ring" from any place that sells seals, bearings etc. Make sure that the o-ring can take high pressure and can stand-up to oil. re-install and problem solved!

Just in case you don't know what this valve does, it increases the engine speed when turning your wheels at idle so the engine doesn't stall, much like the air-conditioning does when it's on. So it is a useful and needed valve. Hope this helps. Daffy :)

←

wel thank you for clearing that up daffy, i appreciate it. i was under the impression the only thing connecting the pump to the engine were a few bolts and a belt. hmm.... news to me.