acf Posted July 14, 2004 Posted July 14, 2004 As you know I am in the process of selling my Lexus. When I bought it, I never did a CARFAX on it as I had a friend of mine check it out who knows cars pretty well and he said it looked great. This is no excuse and I am an idiot I know. Anyway, I had a guy CARFAX my car this week as he was very interested in buying it. It came back as "Severe Accident or Total Loss Event Reported to DMV" and "Odometer Problems Reported to DMV"!! Needless to say I'm shocked and at a loss what to do right now. I bought it from a dealer less than a year ago. I just bought my Land Cruiser and the seller by law had to sign a damage disclosure statement stating that there has not been damage equal to or over 25% of the value of car. Anyone know off hand if this law is new or not? I'll check tomorrow but obviously I'm searching for answers right now for some peace of mind... I'm very shocked and saddened right now. :(
wandawoods Posted July 14, 2004 Posted July 14, 2004 Hmmm....this kind of law can vary from state to state. at least I have not heard of this in GA. other than Odometer disclosure, seller really doesnt have to say anything about the car. well, does CarFax indicate any salvaged title was issued? sorry to say this could be an 'impossible' situation to overcome. however, there are lots of buyers don't really bother to check the car history (I guess you were one of the examples) or just don't know how. the only hope is that you may run into one of them. I am not saying you have to lie, but you can at least honestly state to your potential buyer that there are no accidents occured in your possesion. bring your car to a body shop for them to check it out. they should know where the major damages were, and any evidence of frame damages. at least u need to know the whole picture.
acf Posted July 14, 2004 Author Posted July 14, 2004 Yes, CARFAX states it was a salvage title. But salvage can also mean stolen as its history states its titled to original owner in Florida and 2 weeks later its titled in New York! WTF? They had to know about this. If the dealer doesn't want ALOT of trouble they will buy it back from for the original purchase price. Hell its in better shape now than when I bought it!
SW03ES Posted July 14, 2004 Posted July 14, 2004 Not much you can do short of hiring a lawyer and going after the dealership. If they did not sign some sort of damage waiver then IMO you're totally screwed as they can say anything, even that you were aware of the previous accident when you purchased the car. The odometer rollback could be your saving grace. Tampering with a vehicle's odometer is a federal offense and will not only put the owner of the dealership you bought the car from out of business, it could cost him everything he owns in fines and could even put him in jail. The feds don't screw around with odometer fraud. If you can have someone attest that the odometer was rolled back and extrapolate the mileage out to show it must have been this dealer that did it then you have a bargaining chip. Its also possible though that the mileage rollback was simply a mistake pertaining to the accident that resulted in the salvage title. If the instrument cluster were damaged in some way then it would be replaced, most likely with a salvage unit. Now, they can program the odometer to read the correct mileage but if they can't get it off of the destroyed cluster they have to either guess or leave it like it is (0 or whatever mileage was on the salvage part). Carfax works by seeing mileages that don't make sense in the car's history and flagging that. For instance if the car is inspected at 35,000 miles in June and then at 23,000 miles the next year, something is wrong and Carfax flags that. You should be able to see all of that on the carfax sheet. This is MUCH more likely than odometer fraud because odo fraud today is almost unheard of. Digital dashes are harder to rollback, the true mileage is stored in the PCM or ECU that is imprinted with the car's VIN, and watchdogs like Carfax mean the perp is almost certain to get caught. This is going to be very difficult though, especially almost a year after the sale took place. get the car looked at by a body guy and get a signed statement from him. You can also have the odometer compared to the master reading from the PCM and get a signed statement from whoever does that. Then I would go see a lawyer for a consultation and see what they say. My guess is its a flood car, flood cars are totalled and issued salvage titles but after they're repaired it can be very hard for anyone even a experienced body tech to know it was flooded. Thats my guess. That sucks man...
VMF Posted July 14, 2004 Posted July 14, 2004 yeah, my bro just bought salvaged flooded 99 coupe and there is nothing wrong with it and he paid half price. but in ur case you really should consult your lawyer nad talk to the delaership, they might work with you for some kind of deal.
tansupplyman Posted July 14, 2004 Posted July 14, 2004 Don't sweat it. Sell it to someone else if that person does not want it. NC has had the sign off every since the new title form. you sign off on the mileage and any damage. Are you responsible for damage of speedometer errors before you bought the car !!! NOT if you sign off. Just sign it off and sell the car for what it is. I have sold several autos with the sign off--not because anything was amiss but because I didn't want to get sued for something I didn't do.
93LSOwner Posted July 14, 2004 Posted July 14, 2004 I just bought my Land Cruiser and the seller by law had to sign a damage disclosure statement stating that there has not been damage equal to or over 25% of the value of car. Anyone know off hand if this law is new or not? We bought a Toyota Camry from a big name dealer and he received the same statement from them about the 25% damage, in 2000. It was yellow. We bought another car from small dealer and didn't recieve it, in 2002, then from a private party and the didn't recieve it, in 2004. All of this took place in North Carolina. I would have to go with everyones suggestion about seeing a lawyer. I am really sorry about this whole situation. Keep us posted.
SW03ES Posted July 14, 2004 Posted July 14, 2004 Got to see a lawyer. What the dealership did was definately underhanded, the question is was it illegal. Unfortunately businesses do all kinds of nasty *BLEEP* to customers that is perfectly legal and there isn't anything the customer can do about it after the fact.
acf Posted July 14, 2004 Author Posted July 14, 2004 Thanks for the replies. This is a big name luxury dealership so I hope they play ball so to speak. I have the maint. history from the Lexus dealership here in Charlotte and the dates conflict with the CARFAX dates in Florida. The history sheet I have doesn't mention the location of the service. Is it possible or likely that the service was done in both states? Will the maint. report I got from the Charlotte dealer reflect service done at any dealer in the country?
acf Posted July 14, 2004 Author Posted July 14, 2004 Here's the CARFAX report. Any comments welcome. http://www.carfax.com/cfm/FSBO.cfm?report=CFX000006949799
acf Posted July 14, 2004 Author Posted July 14, 2004 Did some detective work and found out the car was stolen, bought off from the owner by Allstate, titled to them without the car, thats why the mileage is misreported in the CARFAX. Then the car was recovered and Allstate sold it, and the rest is history... :cries:
wandawoods Posted July 14, 2004 Posted July 14, 2004 Did some detective work and found out the car was stolen, bought off from the owner by Allstate, titled to them without the car, thats why the mileage is misreported in the CARFAX. Then the car was recovered and Allstate sold it, and the rest is history...:cries: in fact, that may be a 'good' news. at least we now know it was not really in sever accident or got flooded, either can be a mechanical disaster. 'stolen' car could have only minor or cosmetic damages. keep all the paper works or proofs of 'stolen' car you can dig up with. as long as the title is 'clean' and lawful now, and the car is actually in good mechanical condition, I think you still have a good chance to sell it at 'normal' price or slightly lower. hope this makes you feel better.... good luck!
acf Posted July 14, 2004 Author Posted July 14, 2004 Yes thanks, that's relative good news but if I am stuck with it I've still got to explain all that to any buyer who does a Carfax report and hope they're still interested. Or maybe its destiny I keep the thing...
SW03ES Posted July 14, 2004 Posted July 14, 2004 That shows me a better picture of what happened. It was stolen and probably stripped. One of the components they always steal is the instrument cluster on these cars because its optitron and they are expensive. That explains the not-actual mileage title, the cluster was replaced with one with a different mileage. I agree, not as bad news as it could have been.
acf Posted July 15, 2004 Author Posted July 15, 2004 That shows me a better picture of what happened.It was stolen and probably stripped. One of the components they always steal is the instrument cluster on these cars because its optitron and they are expensive. That explains the not-actual mileage title, the cluster was replaced with one with a different mileage. I agree, not as bad news as it could have been. That could be but the gal at the Florida DMV thinks that since the car was still "AWOL" when Allstate had it titled, they didn't have the current mileage to title with. I would love to know though if the "thieves" did take anything out of the car b/c whoever replaced ithe stuff did an amazing job. I also found out that if a dealer is found guilty of knowingly selling a "salvaged" vehicle in NC and not disclosing it that the seller receives 3x the value of the car plus $50K.... And I informed the lien holder bank (who has a relationship with the dealer so apparently never did a CARFAX either) about this situation, they checked the title and confirmed for me that it was never marked as "salvaged" before the dealer sent it to them. They're not happy and plan on sending the balance of the loan back to the dealer for them to pay off. They told me I would never have gotten the loan had they known it had a salvaged title. Also, I have a good friend who has a friend thats the finance manager for another dealer thats owned by the same company. He is working on this for me from the inside. The plot thickens.
SW03ES Posted July 15, 2004 Posted July 15, 2004 Best of luck to you man, sounds like it might just turn out in your favor. Keep us updated! You might be rollin in an 04 LS430 when this is all done LOL
acf Posted July 15, 2004 Author Posted July 15, 2004 Thanks, Steve. Its gonna be interesting one way or another. :)
GSsoldier Posted July 15, 2004 Posted July 15, 2004 hey i dont know much about laws and what not but if u still are persuiting a legal action witha lawyer this might be some help i just took econ this summer school session, there is a provision or a regulation i think its called regulation Z, it part of a disclosure law, stating that the seller must provide full and correct information of the product the seller is trying to sell, if not the sell is illegal and volation of federal law... well thats my 2 cents, i know there is a disclosure law, not sure of its name though well hoped to bring u some help gl
99lsguy Posted July 15, 2004 Posted July 15, 2004 acf. I think you're in good shape. Either the insurance company or the dealer is going to pay...... The dealer MUST disclose to you that the car was 'salvaged'........they are in deep trouble. (Although I'm sure there is a possibility they can "squirm" out of it somehow.....) You'll be OK.............my guess is "way OK!!"
acf Posted July 16, 2004 Author Posted July 16, 2004 My "inside source" told me today that the dealer is claiming igorance which he's not surprised b/c they turn over so many used cars its common to not CARFAX them. I'm checking with the FTC, etc. to see if they actually broke any laws by not disclosing this info to me. I can't believe that they can take the previous owner's "clean title" claims and then turn those cars around without a care in the world. Since they don't CARFAX, then I can't prove they knew it was salvaged and since the penalties are so great it also makes sense for them not to purposely sell me a salvaged car! My lien bank may end up being the ace in the hole on this but at this point I don't know... So if they settle with me, then they gotta go after the guy that sold it them and so on and so and... :chairshot:
Jaylin6998 Posted July 17, 2004 Posted July 17, 2004 That shows me a better picture of what happened.It was stolen and probably stripped. One of the components they always steal is the instrument cluster on these cars because its optitron and they are expensive. That explains the not-actual mileage title, the cluster was replaced with one with a different mileage. I agree, not as bad news as it could have been. That could be but the gal at the Florida DMV thinks that since the car was still "AWOL" when Allstate had it titled, they didn't have the current mileage to title with. I would love to know though if the "thieves" did take anything out of the car b/c whoever replaced ithe stuff did an amazing job. I also found out that if a dealer is found guilty of knowingly selling a "salvaged" vehicle in NC and not disclosing it that the seller receives 3x the value of the car plus $50K.... And I informed the lien holder bank (who has a relationship with the dealer so apparently never did a CARFAX either) about this situation, they checked the title and confirmed for me that it was never marked as "salvaged" before the dealer sent it to them. They're not happy and plan on sending the balance of the loan back to the dealer for them to pay off. They told me I would never have gotten the loan had they known it had a salvaged title. Also, I have a good friend who has a friend thats the finance manager for another dealer thats owned by the same company. He is working on this for me from the inside. The plot thickens. As a selling dealer, they are obligated to let you know there was a salvage title. If they do not that is fraud in every state. Especially for large dealers. Speak with another lawyer, because that one is wrong.
wandawoods Posted July 18, 2004 Posted July 18, 2004 but according to acf, this purticular dealer is 'claiming igorance' meaning they say they didn't know a 'salvaged' title was issued in the history, therefore they did not knowingly sell him a salvaged car without disclosure. it will be pretty difficult for acf to prove otherwise.
99lsguy Posted July 19, 2004 Posted July 19, 2004 The dealer is playing dumb.............Don't let them get away with it They know where the car was, and what it's been thru.......... I agree with Jaylin - keep the pressure on!
1UZ-FE Posted July 19, 2004 Posted July 19, 2004 i know im stating the obvious, but they have to PROVE the dealer knew. thats really difficult. "Innocent (or in this case ignorant) until proven guilty"
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