Freon 12

[Grandpa]

So, I see that you ban buy a can of Freon 12, but you can't use it unless your certified. So, I need to take my car to a technician and let them charge me 150 bucks to recharge it??? Well, that sux... any1 kno a price range of recharging? i know its around 200 at the dealership

[jzz30]

you cant buy R-12 unless you have a licence. you can charge it your self if you know what your doing. and a 30lb can goes for about 800 bucks...i have one! :P

[chazglenn3]

You have to shop around in your area to see who sells the R-12 cheapest. Here in the Seattle area, I had my Supra recharged yesterday in Kent...the cheapest I found was $70.00 per pound and my car took 1.6 lbs. I suspect the Lexus holds a larger charge. My LS is a 1993 model and uses R-134a, so I don't know what the R-12 capacity is for a 1990-1992 model.

[VMF]

you can get artificial r12 which you can buy without a license. it will not give you the temp that real r12 gives but it much cheaper and in case your Ac system leaks you will not waste big bux

[Grandpa]

Is charging it with artificial difficult? Maybe i should get 99lsguy to take a peek at it :). How much does artificial r12 go for a lb?

[93LSOwner]

Was it changed in 1993 from R12 to R-134a? I don't have my LS with me, so what does the 1993 LS400 take R12 or R1-34a?

[tansupplyman]

'93 has R-134a.

If you are looking for info on R-12a; just type 'refrigerant R-12a' into google then you can find out the cost,requirements, procedures, where available, etc.

[monarch]

Here's the inside story:

You can buy 12 ounce (340 gram) cans of genuine R12 on ebay for $25 each

http://tinyurl.com/23gga The system capacity of a totally empty LS400 system is 3 cans.

So genuine R12 is not prohibitively expensive. And genuine R12 doesn't degrade system performance, reliability and durability like R12 imitation products. And genuine R12 is not flammable like some R12 imitation products.

Unless the AC system has a bad leak, there should still be some refrigerant in the system in which case it may need only 1 can or part of 1 can to restore full cooling.

You can also buy the R12 can tap valve and charging hose on ebay for $8

http://tinyurl.com/2z2ur

You hook up the can tap valve to the can of R12 then screw on the charging hose to the schrader valve attached to one of the refrigerant lines under the hood (the schrader valve with a black colored cap). http://www.saber.net/~monarch/acrecharge.jpg

You provide a letter to the ebay seller stating that the reason you are purchasing the R12 is to sell it to certified technicians (not for personal use) or if you want to become certified yourself for $15 you can take a short 25 question test online at http://www.macsw.org/macs.asp?mfurl=certify.html and become certified and receive an EPA certification number.

[93LSOwner]

Great Info guys. B)

[tansupplyman]

If we are going this far: purge the air from the hose before connecting to the suction fitting. pierce the can, then just barely crack the valve and put your ear next to the end of the hose so as to hear the gas escaping; as the freon comes out, screw on the suction fitting.

Charge to 30# suction pressure;Also, there is a sight glass on the rt side next to the rt side elec. fan[on the '93]; you charge until the bubbles are cleared up. Do not overcharge---expensive.

[VMF]

its not that ez actually, you have to suck everything out first then youhave to fill the system with refigerant with die to make sure you have no leaks and only then you completely fill the system.

[tansupplyman]

Suppose one could do that with a $2000. recycler and a $200. sniffer; but think most of us have neither.

'recharge' in the initial post probably meant a slow 12 year leak-down[the '93 has never been touched in 166k and it still blows 35 degrees]. But if 'recharge' meant "totally out of R-12" then it is a different 'ball game'. I like to see a 30" vacuum held for 4 hours.

REMEMBER, a CERTIFIED A/C Tech., can be fined $25,000.oo for not repairing a leak BEFORE recharging a system. Most of us are not certified. EDIT: NOTE THIS PARAGRAPH IS INCORRECT Sorry, go back to normal mode.

[Grandpa]

CERTIFIED A/C Tech., can be fined $25,000.oo for not repairing a leak BEFORE recharging a system.

so lets say i take this to a certified mechanic in my area (non-dealership) and they say they'll recharge it. Then when i get my car back and everything seems fine... the next day all my coolant leaks out, and he can be fined 25,000?? do i get a portion of that? :)

[1UZ-FE]

no, the EPA will fine him/her $25,000 for being negligent and not fixing a leaking system which allowed the extremely harmful refrigerant to leak into the environment. the EPA will only fine the tech if they find out.

[monarch]

its not that ez actually, you have to suck everything out first then youhave to fill the system with refigerant with die to make sure you have no leaks and only then you completely fill the system.

VMF, it IS that easy as long as there is still some R12 in the system. As long as some R12 remains then the system will be moisture free because the system will still have considerable pressure. And as long as the system is moisture free there is no need to draw a vacuum on the system and replace the receiver-drier before adding new R12.

It's normal for automotive R12 systems to lose 20-30% of their refrigerant charge due to normal seepage every 10-15 years and to require topping off with 1/2 to 1 can of R12 to restore full cooling performance.

Now if the system has lost all its refrigerant charge then it has a serious leak which must be fixed and then the receiver-drier must be replaced and a vaccuum drawn on the system for half an hour to remove the moisture and to verify the leak has been fixed. Then three twelve ounce cans of R12 would be needed to be added to refill the system.

Toyota AC technician training manuals recommend the use of an electronic leak detector to find leaks. The never recommend using dyes because dyes can have harmful side effects.

[monarch]

REMEMBER, a CERTIFIED A/C Tech., can be fined $25,000.oo for not repairing a leak BEFORE recharging a system. Most of us are not certified.

I took the certification test and got liecensed three years ago and I don't remember reading about a rule like that. I remember reading in the certification study book that it was illegal to intentionally vent R12 to the atmosphere, but NOT illegal to top off a R12 system which had lost part of its refrigerant charge due to a slow leak or normal seepage over the years.

[tansupplyman]

you are correct on the leak repair; many of the a/c shops around here have been saying this so as to get more work I suppose; I have heard it for years. They started saying this in 1992 !!!!!! Sorry,forgot it wasn't so.

Tks for the correction. Will go back and edit in case someone stops there.

[VMF]

my AC system in legend had a leak and it still does, i'm not sure if i will fix ti since the hose that is leaking costs 250$:( but i vacoomed the system and got it with artificial r12 with die that i got off ebay and it really helped to find a leak, why is it harmful and to what? rubber seals and rubber hoses? the nice part is that you dont have to change oil in the compressor if you use artificial r12.:) saved some trouble for me:) otherwise as far as i know you have to suck old mineral oil out and put the one designed for r134, if you mix r134 with r12 oil it will foam and destroy the system.

[Grandpa]

Well... why is it neccesarry for me to vacuum the OLD R12 out, if im just gunna fill it with R12 again? Is it because you don't know what brand of R12 it is and it's bad to mix it or soemthing? I'd understand you would need to vacuum it for converting to R-134

[VMF]

do you know for sure that u got some freon left in there?

[Grandpa]

My A/C has been out for about 2 yrs... and im sure we needed to recharge with refrigerant... but we didnt at the time cause we thoughti t was expensive.