bartkat

Minnow said TV is a vast wasteland. That is as it should be, just entertainment, at least on the channels that claim to be for entertainment.

Brake pads defy the laws of physics by stopping rotating wheels being pushed along by a ton and a half or so of mass at some speed from 60 to maybe 80 MPH instantly, right now, immediately. Oops. Not true. It's almost, virtually, essentially but not really instantly. My bad.

Statements from people who want to sell you brakes are not valid. Oops. They're ok if they help you make your point. My bad. KS makes up the rules as he goes along.

How many miliseconds? Oops. Time is not in the equation. My bad. :lol:

I like to leave my lights on all the time, so the auto feature doesn't help me either way. I had mine on all day and also the fogs driving on July 4 and still people would be meandering along in the left lane like there wasn't anyone else on the road. :(

If one totally ignores the distance the car travels from when the pads first engage the disks till the time the wheel stops turning, then braking distance totally depends on tire adhesion in a single panic stop. However, that distance cannot be ignored. If, a mighty big word.

Any reports from brake companies, brake sales, etc are invalid since they are only trying to sell you brakes, per knighshade. A test by some guy on some message board, no matter how unscientific is gospel. That's the way it is.

I turn mine on and off manually too. All those years without the luxury automatic stuff just made it a habit. :D

I've seen no data from a controlled test presented here.

Which part of his statement are you contesting? The part about the lights being totally usless except in front of the car. Parking in a garage, they reflect off the wall and give sufficient light to go in the house. Parking in front of a wall, same thing, etc.

Sorry bud, but you're wrong about the misquote and wrong about the pads not affecting the braking distance. You're also wrong with your not so veiled personal comments. I refuse to try to discuss anything with a poster such as that. Feel free to continue the repetitive rant though.

Yes, those were your exact words. Which I used in a post that had YOUR ENTIRE POST quoted at the top. Seriously dude. Exact words where? IN YOUR POST. "I'm talking one panic stop from road speed." You even quoted it back to me several times in your last few posts. Just... wow. Read again. Read it all. Quote it all.

Yes, those were your exact words. Which I used in a post that had YOUR ENTIRE POST quoted at the top. Seriously dude. Exact words where? You omitted several words from your "quote". Makes a difference.

The pads do stop the car, as they stop the wheel/tire assembly. The faster they are able to do that the shorter the stopping distance. It can vary 10 to 20%. The effiency with which the pad is able to slow down the wheels and hence the car is not the same for different materials. The pads don't just grab the rotors and stop the wheels. The coefficient of friction of the pads is a major factor in stopping distance. I'm talking one panic stop from road speed. There is still energy (heat) to be dissipated here as well as initial friction to slow the wheels way before the lockup occurs. Read up. I brought this back BTW so folks can see how the debate began, and what it was about. Barkat insisted that for "one panic stop from road speed" pads would be a major factor in stopping distance. That's absolutely 100% false, as I've shown repeatedly since, and as agreed on by the half dozen or so sources I've provided (including the guy who actually tested it on a 2IS with both sets of pads). Bringing up a slew of other scenarios (including the couple related to repeated high speed braking I've already mentioned) isn't really relevant to the original question. I'm happy to talk about other situations, but there's a reason I was discussing one specific scenario (the typical panic stop that most folks use as their "stopping distance" test on cars.)...a situation where pads (if they can engage ABS) make no difference whatsoever. You need to stop the misquoting and stop the little flames. I'm sure they sound good to you but they are dishonest and some are very close to rule violations. There is no such thing as the brake pads instantly stopping the rotating wheel/tire/brake assembly. That short time it takes to stop the rotation adds to the braking distance because it takes place before the tires stop and reach their limit of adhesion. That time translates to distance. That's a fact and nothing you have said or cited disproves it. How did I misquote you when I quoted your entire post in full? You calling me dishonest when I've been nothing BUT honest sounds a lot more like a flame than anything I said. And everything I'd said disproved your claim. Even Smooth1 and Gaugster have agreed for the specific case you were discussing that you are wrong. Do you even know what a brake pad does? Because it really doesn't sound like it. "time" does not appear anywhere in the equation to compute braking force. The pads never "stop" anything at all. All the pad does is take the clamping force from the caliper and apply it to the rotor. To calculate the force acting on the rotor you need to know the clamp load from the caliper and the coefficient of friction of the pad. It's an instantaneous calculation. The pad is a pad, it doesn't need "time" to generate maximum force if the caliper is already providing it. Your continued insistence on this belies a gross lack of understanding of what the parts you're discussing are even doing. Get another "expert" to read your post and then get back to me on how many things they find wrong with it. Over and out.

The pads do stop the car, as they stop the wheel/tire assembly. The faster they are able to do that the shorter the stopping distance. It can vary 10 to 20%. The effiency with which the pad is able to slow down the wheels and hence the car is not the same for different materials. The pads don't just grab the rotors and stop the wheels. The coefficient of friction of the pads is a major factor in stopping distance. I'm talking one panic stop from road speed. There is still energy (heat) to be dissipated here as well as initial friction to slow the wheels way before the lockup occurs. Read up. I brought this back BTW so folks can see how the debate began, and what it was about. Barkat insisted that for "one panic stop from road speed" pads would be a major factor in stopping distance. That's absolutely 100% false, as I've shown repeatedly since, and as agreed on by the half dozen or so sources I've provided (including the guy who actually tested it on a 2IS with both sets of pads). Bringing up a slew of other scenarios (including the couple related to repeated high speed braking I've already mentioned) isn't really relevant to the original question. I'm happy to talk about other situations, but there's a reason I was discussing one specific scenario (the typical panic stop that most folks use as their "stopping distance" test on cars.)...a situation where pads (if they can engage ABS) make no difference whatsoever. You need to stop the misquoting and stop the little flames. I'm sure they sound good to you but they are dishonest and some are very close to rule violations. There is no such thing as the brake pads instantly stopping the rotating wheel/tire/brake assembly. That short time it takes to stop the rotation adds to the braking distance because it takes place before the tires stop and reach their limit of adhesion. That time translates to distance. That's a fact and nothing you have said or cited disproves it.

Oh yes it does.

No need for me to save face when you're the one that fails to understand anything more than some dude telling you that tires grip the road. I don't reckon motors matter either since it's the tires that do the road gripping and ultimately moving the car. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Stop replying to 6 pages of scientific explanation with "Uh...you're wrong because... you are!" Slam the brake pedal you supply maximum force input This (virtually instantly) engages the calipers with maximum force This (virtually instantly) uses the pads to transmit that force to the rotors- this will be sufficient force to lock the wheels and engage ABS. No matter what pads you use, so long as those pads are capable of engaging ABS, it will happen exactly as quickly, with exactly the same stopping distance. The only thing pads with a higher coeficient of friction would accomplish in this scenario is being capable of transmitting more force than the wheels are capable of doing anything with. Useless extra force. Since you are already at the maximum amount of braking force the system will use when ABS is engaged. Going from 0 force to enough force to engage ABS will happen in the same amount of time no matter what pads you use as long as both pads can do it. The only difference "better" pads will make is that by your 6th 100-0 stop you will be less likely to see LONGER braking distance than with a "bad" pad because you'll take longer to fade. The first stop between the two will be identical. That is what the motorcycle article told you. That is what the guy who tested the 2IS pads told you. That is what the ABS system designer for Bosch told you. That is what the folks who built the F-sport brakes told you. I'm not sure how I can make that any simpler. It's pretty clear you just refuse to admit you're wrong no matter how much evidence is presented. Where's the compartive data? Virutally, almost, not quite, damn near, ain't instant. BTW the motorcycle isn't relevant in this situation. Think Newton. And not to forget that any and all articles by companies that make or sell brake parts are meaningless per you.

Locking the wheel is a process, not an instantaneous event. There is time involved in slowing the wheel to a stop. The faster that happens, the shorter the braking distance. Fractions of seconds do matter. Stop peeing on my boots and telling me it's raining.

Where's that guy that says changing oil is just wasting money unless you do oil tests. We need to send our pads off to be tested. :lol:

What is it about almost that KS doesn't understand?

Thanks! Here's a quote from that article that might sound familiar! "The brakes don't stop the vehicle - the tires do. The brakes slow the rotation of the wheels and tires. This means that braking distance measured on a single stop from a highway legal speed or higher is almost totally dependent upon the stopping ability of the tires in use" Gee, where'd we hear that before? It goes on in some depth, mostly echoing the contents of the pulp friction article, but it has some other good stuff in it. When it gets to discussing pads it mentions a few areas they matter- service life, thermally (for racing for example)... NOT stopping distance. But I guess me, some folks on club lexus who actually tested this stuff, a well known brake engineer, and stoptech (who make the F-sport brakes BTW) all don't know what we're talking about. Citing a company that is trying to sell you brakes? This means that braking distance measured on a single stop from a highway legal speed or higher is almost totally dependent upon the stopping ability of the tires in use

There are several threads about that. One unit seems to be a favorite aftermarket item. Some of the threads have been combined, so a search ought to find them.