Snow Tires? Or A Jeep?

[landar]

Ok guys. I drove my Lex all last winter and it did pretty well in the snow with just all-seasons.

I kinda like the looks of the Jeep Grand Cherokees, used ones seem plentiful and fairly inexpensive

and I wouldn't mind having a 4WD in the winter and just park the Lex. Keeps my baby Lex out of the salt as a bonus.

However, I just finished reading Jeep forums and it dont look good. People griping right and left.

The smarter side of me thinks I should just forget the "Yeep". Do I hear any "amens" brother? Any experience with same?

Maybe an RX300 instead? I guess I am just hankerin' for a good 4WD in the snow.

Like the Cowardly Lion said: "Talk me out of it, fellas"! :D

[AZ Mike]

I have an LS400 and a Grand Cherokee.....oh, and a Honda S2000 for fun. The Jeep has been relegated to Home Depot/Boy Scouts/hauling the dogs/camping/towing etc. duty (it is a '94 w/ 175K miles and runs great). The Jeep was my only vehicle for 3.5 years in Park City, UT. It performed great in the snow. I have not driven my Lexus in snow (that white stuff doesn't fly often in AZ), so can't speak to a comparison. However, a 4X4 almost always will outperform a rear wheel drive in the snow.

Of course, a Jeep ain't no Lexus. Comparatively, it is noisier, has less fuel economy, is not nearly as plush, and is more likely to drip oil on your garage floor.

I don't know what Jeep forums you have looked at, but you can learn everything you want to know about a Grand Cherokee on www.jeepsunlimited.com. One plus is it would give you a wheelin' rig. Chances are you would never take your Lexus rock crawling.

[1990LS400]

OK, landar ... read some past threads about snow tires in which you and I both participated ... like here --> http://us.lexusownersclub.com/forums/index...c=37386&hl=

Having spent time in Michigan upper peninsula winters in lake effect snow in the 1960s and early 1970s, I regard the modern fascination with 4WD vehicles as silly. Almost nobody had 4WD back then and everyone got around just fine in the winters in which the total snowfall approached 200 inches. How? Simply by using heavy duty snow tires.

I put my Bridgestone Blizzak WS50 snow tires on my 2000 LS400 two days ago -- I wouldn't think of driving a RWD car in snow without heavy duty (mountain/snowflake logo) snow tires. This will be the sixth and last winter for these Blizzaks -- they were used a total of 22,928 miles during the previous five winters and are worn down almost to the winter wear bars. I will be replacing these Blizzaks with a new set of Blizzak WS60 (the replacement for WS50) tires in Feb/Mar 2009 when snow tires go on sale. One more set of Blizzaks will likely get the car to 2015 which is my CPA wife's planned replacement year for the 00 LS.

As I might have reported in a previous thread, only two of many family vehicles made it up a long ice and snow covered street a few years ago at a winter holiday gathering in Des Moines, Iowa -- the niece's 4WD Honda SUV and my 00 LS400 with its Blizzaks. Everybody else had to slog several hundred yards up the hill on foot except for a few geezers I shuttled up the hill in my LS.

[landar]

Thanks Jim. You are a voice of reasoning. I know there is really no reason for a 4WD, its just the boy in me that wants to play.

I think I will go see about those Blizzaks. That is, if they have not all been shipped to Quebec.

[1990LS400]

Here is what Tire Rack has in winter tires in size 225/60-16: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Compare1.jsp...mp;x=16&y=7

I suggest avoiding "Performance Winter" tires -- sometimes no better than all season tires. I've bought most of our replacement tires from Tire Rack over the past 20 or so years -- always get good service from them. The "survey results" can be helpful -- one reason I like Blizzaks is that they are fairly quiet.

If you plan to keep your 98 LS for a long time, an extra set of wheels makes the twice-a-year changeover easier and less expensive -- and less likely the damage the beads on the tires. I wish I had thought to buy an extra set of OEM wheels instead of aftermarket wheels -- I doubt if I could find a replacement if I ever trash one of my aftermarket wheels.

You could always use your current wheels for snow tires and look for another set of OEM wheels over the winter. Once you decide on an OEM wheel style, you could even buy them 1 or 2 at a time as you find them. I sometimes see used Lexus LS wheels on Craigslist but I don't see any today on the Craigslist for South Bend. If I understand correctly, any 95-06 OEM LS wheel will fit your 98 LS.

Let's see ... you could drive to Montreal in only about 12 hours or, better yet, continue on to Quebec City -- one of my favorite places.

[landar]

Actually, one of my dilemas at the moment concerns buying an extra set of wheels. I have OEM chrome wheels but they are blistering

and won't seal worth a darn. Its a bother to keep pumping them up every few weeks.

So, I thought I would buy a set of aftermarket wheels and put the blizzaks on them(or perhaps Nokians)

Then, maybe have the originals rechromed if not price prohibitive (despite owning a Lexus, I am a cheapskate :P ).

[Kennyr]

I live in Denver and have had my 91 for 8 years. First let me say I love driving this car. I have had all the sticky snow tires the first few years and yes they are better than nothing. But! some years are way worse than others here and the LS400 does not cut it at all, mostly on black ice or in deep snow. Forget about it. 3 years ago I also purchased a 2000 Isuzu Trooper and it's a blast in the snow. Buy the Jeep or whatever, you will love it. I say to myself, why didn't I do this sooner like my wife suggested. You couldn't pay her to drive the Lexus in the snow. Just my personal experience.

[1990LS400]

I live in Denver and have had my 91 for 8 years. First let me say I love driving this car. I have had all the sticky snow tires the first few years and yes they are better than nothing. But! some years are way worse than others here and the LS400 does not cut it at all, mostly on black ice or in deep snow. Forget about it. 3 years ago I also purchased a 2000 Isuzu Trooper and it's a blast in the snow. Buy the Jeep or whatever, you will love it. I say to myself, why didn't I do this sooner like my wife suggested. You couldn't pay her to drive the Lexus in the snow. Just my personal experience.

Kennyr, I don't think comparing how your 91 LS handles snow to landar's 98 LS is a fair comparison. landar's 98 LS has VSC, a snow mode transmission setting and a traction control system that is more effective than the traction control of the gen 1 LS. The 98 LS also has a more complex and effective ABS system. We're talking apples and oranges.

My 90 LS was quite a handful through the 13 winters I drove it -- even with its snow tires and a sack of sand on each side of the trunk. It got around "OK" but it was always a little dicey.

My 00 LS - virtually identical to landar's 98 LS - is a completely different animal in the snow. It feels secure and even fun to drive on snow covered roads.

Having averaged 20 - 30 ski days per year in Colorado from the 1970s until my sled ride down Aspen mountain in '05, I've done quite a bit of winter driving around Denver -- often stayed with friends near Stevinson auto plaza in Lakewood across the street from the circus winter home. I love how Denver can get a butt-load of snow which is completely burned off by the sun within a day or two. I never thought the winter road conditions were all that bad in Denver -- probably because they do such a great job of clearing the roads . In all those years of driving mostly RWD sedans around Colorado ski areas, I don't remember getting stuck unless I count the times the Eisenhower tunnel or one of the passes was closed to traffic.

You guys out there in Denver are pansies! ;)

[magic]

Of course a 4wheel drive or an all wheel drive will be better than 2 wheel drive. The most important thing however is the tires. I live in Canada and we even have studded tires. A 4 wheel drive with winter tires will do better than a 2wheel drive with the same.

I am also thinking of buying a LS 430 but do not think that I would use it in the winter proper. Too much snow during snow storms unless I use it only in the city. I have an SUV than I exclusively use in the winter and it takes me anywhere I want to go.

[GKLCPA]

I live in the northeast and the blizzacks work just fine for me. I just got a new set in the spring from Tirerack for $ 264. (I caught a discontinued brand of blizzacks on sale). My regular tires are nearly done for and I'm thinking of just getting some Nokians to replace them. The only problem is that the Nokians are pretty expensive, but I guess that paying nearly $ 600 for a set is still cheaper than separately buying winter and summer tires.

[AZ Mike]

Having spent time in Michigan upper peninsula winters in lake effect snow in the 1960s and early 1970s, I regard the modern fascination with 4WD vehicles as silly. Almost nobody had 4WD back then and everyone got around just fine in the winters in which the total snowfall approached 200 inches. How? Simply by using heavy duty snow tires.

As I might have reported in a previous thread, only two of many family vehicles made it up a long ice and snow covered street a few years ago at a winter holiday gathering in Des Moines, Iowa -- the niece's 4WD Honda SUV and my 00 LS400 with its Blizzaks. Everybody else had to slog several hundred yards up the hill on foot except for a few geezers I shuttled up the hill in my LS.

I just thought this was funny.....in one paragraph, says 4 wheel drive is silly. In the next paragraph, states that only two cars made it up an icy and snowy street......the Lexus with snow tires and a 4 wheel drive. So maybe 4X4 isn't so silly after all.......

If I was going to be risking sliding off the road, I would MUCH rather be in my old Grand Cherokee than my Lexus. First, the Jeep handles better in snow. Second, if it does slide off the road, I will be able to drive it back onto the road (clearance, traction, etc). Third, if I slide into something, I would be much less bummed banging the Jeep than the Lexus.

[1990LS400]

I just thought this was funny.....in one paragraph, says 4 wheel drive is silly. In the next paragraph, states that only two cars made it up an icy and snowy street......the Lexus with snow tires and a 4 wheel drive. So maybe 4X4 isn't so silly after all.......

If I was going to be risking sliding off the road, I would MUCH rather be in my old Grand Cherokee than my Lexus. First, the Jeep handles better in snow. Second, if it does slide off the road, I will be able to drive it back onto the road (clearance, traction, etc). Third, if I slide into something, I would be much less bummed banging the Jeep than the Lexus.

I'm not saying that a 4X4 SUV is silly. I'm saying that a properly equipped 98+ Lexus LS RWD sedan with all its technology gizmos (VSC, ABS, snow mode transmission setting, heavy duty snow tires) will get around in moderate ice and snow just as well as a 4WD SUV. There is definitely a place for a 4WD SUV when the snow is deep and roads are poorly maintained.

So you would rather be in in your "old Grand Cherokee" in a crash than in your 99 LS400? Do you mind if I don't ride with you? I know the odds from over 30 years the auto insurance industry and I certainly don't want to be in an "old Grand Cherokee" during a crash. SUVs are more likely to be in a serious crash in the first place and they have a much higher frequency of rollovers. We travel and rent cars quite a bit -- I never, ever accept an SUV as a rental car. The last time Hertz tried to foist an SUV on us when they ran out of "normal" full size cars, we drove out their lot in an Infinity M35 --> http://us.lexusownersclub.com/forums/index...amp;hl=Infinity

I admit I'm a "raving car safety nut". I made sure my parents had the first car in town with seat belts in the 1950s and the first car in town with halogen headlights in the 1960s. All the family cars had high mounted brake lights long before they were mandated in the U.S. and most of our cars we drove through Colorado blizzards had rear fog lights. I even had my wife's new Camry trucked in from 1,000+ miles away just to get one of the few sold in 1998 with side air bags, ABS and traction control. Yes, I'm more than a little obsessive about vehicle safety.

[027922]

I live in the St. Paul, MN area and we've have had moderate amounts of snow and ice in the last few winters. Since owning LS 400s (1990 and 1993) I have found that using winter tires on all 4 wheels is a great benefit in getting around. The modern winter tires (as opposed to the old snow tires) use a softer compound along with more sipes or cuts in the tread to greatly improve traction in snow and ice. I'm sure Blizzards are great tires but I have found cheaper brands work very well for me - I have a set of Winterforce (from Firestone dealers) one 1 LS and my daughter has Yokohamas on the other LS. I am also old enough to remember both the heavy snows in the '60s and '70s and driving rear wheel drive cars at that time. Most people got through it fine - had to slow down when it snowed of course which most people today don't do. I find it very interesting that the vast majority of roll over vehicles off the road are 4WDs.

[AZ Mike]

I just thought this was funny.....in one paragraph, says 4 wheel drive is silly. In the next paragraph, states that only two cars made it up an icy and snowy street......the Lexus with snow tires and a 4 wheel drive. So maybe 4X4 isn't so silly after all.......

If I was going to be risking sliding off the road, I would MUCH rather be in my old Grand Cherokee than my Lexus. First, the Jeep handles better in snow. Second, if it does slide off the road, I will be able to drive it back onto the road (clearance, traction, etc). Third, if I slide into something, I would be much less bummed banging the Jeep than the Lexus.

I'm not saying that a 4X4 SUV is silly. I'm saying that a properly equipped 98+ Lexus LS RWD sedan with all its technology gizmos (VSC, ABS, snow mode transmission setting, heavy duty snow tires) will get around in moderate ice and snow just as well as a 4WD SUV. There is definitely a place for a 4WD SUV when the snow is deep and roads are poorly maintained.

So you would rather be in in your "old Grand Cherokee" in a crash than in your 99 LS400? Do you mind if I don't ride with you? I know the odds from over 30 years the auto insurance industry and I certainly don't want to be in an "old Grand Cherokee" during a crash. SUVs are more likely to be in a serious crash in the first place and they have a much higher frequency of rollovers. We travel and rent cars quite a bit -- I never, ever accept an SUV as a rental car. The last time Hertz tried to foist an SUV on us when they ran out of "normal" full size cars, we drove out their lot in an Infinity M35 --> http://us.lexusownersclub.com/forums/index...amp;hl=Infinity

You are correct. You did not say that a 4X4 SUV is silly. You said, "I regard the modern fascination with 4WD vehicles as silly."

You are free to ride with whomever you please so long as you are invited. However, my comment referred to driving when there is a risk of sliding off the road, and had nothing to do with a crash. My reasons are in the quote above.

I am not trying to pick a fight and say that an LS can not do OK on snowy roads with the proper tires. However, that wasn't the question. The question was whether it would be better to purchase an old 4X4 for winter use or put snow tires on an LS. Seeing as I own a Grand Cherokee and an LS400, and have driven both in the snow, I was merely offering my opinion, which is, given a choice in snowy conditions, I'm taking the Grand Cherokee and leaving the LS400 in the nice warm garage. In my experience, I feel much more confident driving the Jeep in snowy, icy conditions.

I have never been in a crash in either the Grand Cherokee (175K miles) nor the LS400 (62K miles), so i can neither confirm nor deny your allegations about which fares better in a crash. But again, this is an entirely different topic than the question at hand.

[1990LS400]

I have never been in a crash in either the Grand Cherokee (175K miles) nor the LS400 (62K miles), so i can neither confirm nor deny your allegations about which fares better in a crash.

Insurance Institute vehicle ratings:

Lexus LS400: http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=519

Jeep Grand Cherokee: http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=341

You can see injury stats for various years here: http://www.iihs.org/research/hldi/composite_intro.html

The Jeep's safety did improve over time -- probably because of requirements to meet more passenger car safety standards as SUVs became mainstream vehicles.

Sorry, I'm a little "hot" on the whole SUV rollover issue this year -- two people in my circle killed in SUV rollovers including a 14 year old in a high speed Honda Pilot rollover on I-70 and a 30 year old in a low speed Jeep Wrangler rollover on a rural road.

[Jim Clark]

I have a '94 Jeep Grand Cherokee for the slop when I don't drive my BMW convertible. When the conditions are nasty, I just drive more carefully. Even when I drive the Jeep in dry conditions, I would never drive it like the BMW.

Our newest car is a RX400h that we love. I also would not drive it like the BMW for obvious reasons.

[lexusking]

I have never been in a crash in either the Grand Cherokee (175K miles) nor the LS400 (62K miles), so i can neither confirm nor deny your allegations about which fares better in a crash.

Insurance Institute vehicle ratings:

Lexus LS400: http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=519

Jeep Grand Cherokee: http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=341

You can see injury stats for various years here: http://www.iihs.org/research/hldi/composite_intro.html

The Jeep's safety did improve over time -- probably because of requirements to meet more passenger car safety standards as SUVs became mainstream vehicles.

Sorry, I'm a little "hot" on the whole SUV rollover issue this year -- two people in my circle killed in SUV rollovers including a 14 year old in a high speed Honda Pilot rollover on I-70 and a 30 year old in a low speed Jeep Wrangler rollover on a rural road.

I have been using Nokian snow tires from last three years. I lived in mountains of WV and they performed very well. I usually change them from my all season to snow tires around Thanksgiving and back to all season in April.

[BillyShaft]

I love these kinds of discussions...lots of good info here.

There does tend to be a "silly" overreliance on AWD systems. Without doubt, AWD will allow a good driver to get places they wouldnt otherwise get to. Add great tires to this mix, and a good driver will be able to make it almost anywhere.

Key to this conversation is the "Good Driver".

Not all AWD drive systems are created equal, however, and some lend themselves to certain conditions.

The average Grand Cherokee has a pretty advanced transfer case and combined with a limited slip diff in the rear, they do very well in the slop even with all season tires. Putting Blizaks on a Grand makes for a very nice snow-sled that will be able to avoid the inevitable idiot with AWD who thinks they can drive like they do when it is dry.

In our case, the wife drives an RX400h AWD with all season radials. We get plenty of snow here and live at the top of a hill with 10-12 percent grades. The RX is a predictable snow handler and she drives with the conditions in mind. I do not buy the argument that a FWD RX will perform as well as the AWD. It isn't true, and to argue the point is a bit silly.

I drive a Jeep Rubicon, and while it is much less technologically advanced, with locking diffs, limited slip and a 4:1 transfercase, I get around just fine. It takes much more skill to drive the Jeep safely in snow because I don't have traction control or ABS, but I manage to get to and pull people out of drifts on a regular basis.

[landar]

Ok, an update on what I decided to do about the winter driving. Get a Jeep or snow tires for the Lex?

Although I still kinda want a Jeep to play with, I opted for snow tires. Way cheaper. I had decided on the Blizzak WS60 but

everyone was out of them. So, I went with Michelin X-Ice. A bit more money($109 vs $101) but not by much.

The X-Ice's are surprisingly quiet on the dry roads that we had today. I am looking forward to some snow so that I can try them out.

I hem-hawed around a long time as to whether I should even go with winter tires or just some new all-seasons.

Although I drove all of last winter on Bridgestone Turanza's and did fairly well, I found them to be ok on snow but

somewhat slippery on ice and snow.

The bottom line for me is safety. I do not like having to change out tires twice a year but would rather do that than get into

an accident. I put the Michelins on my stock rims and will keep them on. Then in the spring, I will get new summer tires and rims.

Even thinking about some 18" wheels! WooHoo! ;)

Finally, a not so funny thing happened to me at The Tire Rack where I bought my tires(they have a huge warehouse close by and a bay

to mount tires). They mounted and balanced the wheels and put them back on the car. When I began to drive away, I heard a scraping sound coming from the front wheels and immediately headed back to the shop. They discovered that the weights, which were on the inside of the rims were rubbing on the brake calipers. So they moved the weights to the outside of the rims. Problem solved. I thought "knuckleheads. How long have you been in the tire business?"

[1990LS400]

Finally, a not so funny thing happened to me at The Tire Rack where I bought my tires(they have a huge warehouse close by and a bay

to mount tires). They mounted and balanced the wheels and put them back on the car. When I began to drive away, I heard a scraping sound coming from the front wheels and immediately headed back to the shop. They discovered that the weights, which were on the inside of the rims were rubbing on the brake calipers. So they moved the weights to the outside of the rims. Problem solved. I thought "knuckleheads. How long have you been in the tire business?"

TireRack did the same thing when I bought a set of Mille Miglia Bello wheels and Blizzak snow tires from them in 2003 -- they installed the balancing weights so they hit the calipers. I was surprised that they were not aware of the minimal clearance between the wheel rim and the brake calipers. My Bello wheels can't take rim hammer-on balancing weights so I'm stuck with having them statically balanced -- that's the last time I buy a set of wheels with a polished lip that can't accept hammer on rim weights.

I guarantee you will find your LS much easier and more fun to drive in the winter with snow tires.

[dcfish]

http://us.lexusownersclub.com/forums/index...c=54049&hl=