Anyone Voting For Obama?

[SW03ES]

Folks, lets keep this a discussion and not a place to post email chain letters like these.

let your babies learn about !Removed! marriage

This is off topic, but I don't care if my children learn about !Removed! marriage. !Removed! people in this country aren't going away, and like it or not they WILL be able to marry everywhere eventually, its a civil rights issue and it will come. Pretending !Removed! people don't exist to one's children just perpetuates a hatred and prejudice in this country towards homosexuals that in a few years will be just as outdated as hatred and prejudice against other minorities.

Women have control over their bodies and !Removed! people are people too...thats the future.

[lenore]

!Removed! marriage is crap, let them be mates, partners, etc, but dont *BLEEP*ize the word marriage and tear down another stone in our rational society. It is wrong, and its in your face. It has nothing to do with civil rights. They all ready have all rights of being together including health care, etc. Next thing will be the marriage of a dog and man, etc. Unfortunately Sarah Palin in the only one that supports the proper meaning of marriage. The others are too scared or sucking up to this miserable invasion of the meaning of marriage. Funny we are expected to be tolerant, but it is not two sided. My signs supporting the Marriage is for Man and Woman is torn down every night, and my car has been egged. What a wonderful bunch that tolerates others beliefs???? It is just more of the in your face and we dont have to abide by rules that everyone else has. That is why I cant support Biden, Obama, McCain.... they are plastic, two faced politicians that dont support what the silent majority wants. Just the agenda of these fanatics that want to destroy the normal everyday working man and woman.

[SW03ES]

Thats your opinion, but to me marriage is nothing more than a classification of commitment between two people who love each other and want to form a family. Call it whatever you want, as long as it is exactly like marriage for a man and a woman in terms of rights and benefits...who cares. and you are totally wrong, they do NOT have those rights everywhere right now. Only in a few select places.

As for your signs, signs for "Marriage is for white and white, not white and black" would get torn down and get your car egged too. Its discrimination and its wrong.

For every person out there that wants to waive it in your face there are 100 !Removed! couples who just want the right to get married the same as you and me. It has nothing to do with radical agendas and it has nothing to do with you and me. Its about !Removed! couples wanting to hold property as tenants by the entirety, file taxes together, visit each other in the hospital...be seen by the government as a unit just like you and I are with our spouses. How is that a radical agenda?

The majority was against civil rights too, desegregation...sometimes the majority is wrong. The tides are turning too, younger generations don't care about race and sexual orientation the way older generations do.

[smooth1]

I guess while we are on this topic, there is this fundamental issue I think we tend to look over when it comes to !Removed! marriage. The church. I thought marriage was started by the church? When a man and a woman became one in front of god and all that? How can the state force the church to change? I understand that marriage has become more than that, and is a legal institution, but many people contract together to form institutions and they aren't married to each other. I guess the real issue here is I just think it's up to the church not the state or the federal government. Besides, isn't church and state supposed to remain seperate? I mean heck, if the state is going to start forcing religious issues, where exactly do we draw the line? And I guess I don't think things like marriage should be left up to a "younger" generation. It's not about tolerance or social policy. It's about religion and state. Maybe we should vote on the requirements of baptism too. And the tax deduction for dependant children is just really an anti !Removed! tax also. Let's do away with that unfair and obviuosly biased tax credit.

[GDixon]

Getting ugly - just as predicted. November 5th cannot come too soon for the usually good folks on this site.

[1990LS400]

The church. I thought marriage was started by the church?

Historically, over the past several thousand years, marriage had little to do with religion. Marriage was primarily an economic agreement between families and existed in one form or another in all cultures without respect to religion or the absence of religion.

[Randy&Bonnie]

..

[SW03ES]

Getting ugly - just as predicted. November 5th cannot come too soon for the usually good folks on this site.

Its a heated discussion, but I don't think its getting ugly. Nobody's attacked anyone personally, we're just debating very real national issues.

Again, this is the only political thread here. You don't have to read it...

To smooth1's post:

The issue is over the word "marriage". Marriage is a religious institution but it is also a civil institution. For instance I am married, but my wife and I are not affiliated with a church and our marriage was performed in a civil ceremony. We have a "marriage license" that was given to us by the state...not a church.

We file our taxes as "married filing jointly", the church has nothing to do with that.

We own our house as tenants by the entirety, which is only available to married couples and protects our house from individual judgements against us (in states where there is such a thing). Nothing to do with the church.

The church's role in marriage is ceremonial for those who believe in and belong to the church. I don't...but I'm still married. Marriage is really a civil issue.

Maybe there needs to be a different name? But that name is like our Jerusalem, the whole argument is that everybody wants it. If only religious people are "married" and those of us who are not religious, be we straight or !Removed!, have a "civil union", even if its the same as a marriage in every way according to the state...for some people its "seperate but equal". I personally don't care...but I know a lot of people do. I don't know how I would feel if I were !Removed! though...I might care.

As for tax credits, tax credits promote families in the united states and hold very important tax relief, can't do away with them. Why is the dependent credit unfair to !Removed!? They have to be able to adopt too, and can some places. They can have children with surrgoates.

And I guess I don't think things like marriage should be left up to a "younger" generation.

Everything has to be left up to a younger generation. The older generation is going to be dead, and the younger generation is going to have to live in this country. Isn't it time they made some decisions about their future?

[SW03ES]

Getting ugly - just as predicted. November 5th cannot come too soon for the usually good folks on this site.

Its a heated discussion, but I don't think its getting ugly. Nobody's attacked anyone personally, we're just debating very real national issues. I agree with Randy

Again, this is the only political thread here. You don't have to read it...

and thankful we can say what we think (despite Steve’s personal agenda “management censorship”).

Again...no personal attacks.

And where am I censoring anyone in this thread? I'm the only one in the whole management team that wants to keep it open, I've gotten emails daily asking for it to be closed. Do your part in keeping it open by not making personal statements about people...including me.

This is not a political forum, this is a Lexus forum and its privately owned so the management of the site gets final say over what content is expressed here. I'm happy to support this little experiment, but I'm not going to put up with constantly explaining to everyone why I'm keeping it open if you're going to accuse me of censorship. Thats ludicrous.

To smooth1's post:

The issue is over the word "marriage". Marriage is a religious institution but it is also a civil institution. For instance I am married, but my wife and I are not affiliated with a church and our marriage was performed in a civil ceremony. We have a "marriage license" that was given to us by the state...not a church.

We file our taxes as "married filing jointly", the church has nothing to do with that.

We own our house as tenants by the entirety, which is only available to married couples and protects our house from individual judgements against us (in states where there is such a thing). Nothing to do with the church.

The church's role in marriage is ceremonial for those who believe in and belong to the church. I don't...but I'm still married. Marriage is really a civil issue.

Maybe there needs to be a different name? But that name is like our Jerusalem, the whole argument is that everybody wants it. If only religious people are "married" and those of us who are not religious, be we straight or !Removed!, have a "civil union", even if its the same as a marriage in every way according to the state...for some people its "seperate but equal". I personally don't care...but I know a lot of people do. I don't know how I would feel if I were !Removed! though...I might care.

As for tax credits, tax credits promote families in the united states and hold very important tax relief, can't do away with them. Why is the dependent credit unfair to !Removed!? They have to be able to adopt too, and can some places. They can have children with surrgoates.

And I guess I don't think things like marriage should be left up to a "younger" generation.

Everything has to be left up to a younger generation. The older generation is going to be dead, and the younger generation is going to have to live in this country. Isn't it time they made some decisions about their future?

[jobyfreddel]

Obama: Give Social Security, Healthcare to Illegals

There are Millions of illegal aliens in the U.S.

Barack Obama’s plan gives a driver’s license to any illegal who wants one.

But that’s not all.

Obama’s plan gives illegals social security benefits and raises taxes for his health care plan to cover them.

Who pays? You do.

Driver’s licenses and government benefits for illegals.

Higher taxes for us. That’s Obama’s plan.

Obama. Too radical. Too risky.

When you post statements like the ones above, please keep in mind, anything else you have posted or will post will be discounted. When you read or hear things from biased sources and don't bother to check to see if they are true, but repeat them to others, you risk sounding ignorant.

Regarding social security: McCain voted "yea" for the exact same bill LINK And read the article, McCain took it further by actually giving a floor speech arguing against an addendum which would disallow aliens to go back and claim SS benefits for work they did as in illegal. Are you then saying that McCain is too radical and too risky as well?

Regarding health care: I read Obama's health care PLAN and his immigration PLAN but didn't see anything explicitly giving health care to illegals. If I'm missing something, by all means, please provide a link to an unbiased source which gives the details on that program. I don't claim to know all the ins and outs on every plan for either candidate.

By the way, right now, today, uninsured illegal immigrants that go to the ER will get treated and guess what, Obama has not even been elected yet. There is a federal law that prohibits hospitals from refusing care to anyone that goes to an emergency rooms, no matter their residency status or ability to pay.

Now, the source from which you copied/pasted the statements COULD be referring to the $250 million/year plan that is referred to in this article. McCain supported this as well. Too radical? Too risky? Illegal immigration hardliners Senators Dole and Cornyn also supported this bill. Read the entire article and you will see an example of how the sources where you get your information like to cherry pick tidbits of information, sensationalize it and use people like yourself to pass half truths along to others. These are not black/white issues; it is in your best interests to try and understand the entire reasoning instead of getting outraged by a sensationalized half truth and even worse, passing it on. As stated in the article, "it is the responsibility of the federal government, not emergency room nurses and doctors, to enforce immigration law, and that treating those with disease, regardless of immigration status, is necessary as a matter of public health.”

Regarding Driver's Licenses: This issue is like complaining about a leaky faucet in a house that has major structural problems. Obama has stated many times that a comprehensive reform package is needed for the immigration issue. Unfortunately, the Drivers License issue is being used as a distraction. As he stated himself, "We have to have a comprehensive reform package and if we are doing what we need to do to control the borders, if we are doing what we need to do in cracking down on employers who are hiring undocumented workers and undermining U.S. workers then we shouldn't have a problem with driver's licenses because we will have legal workers here in this country as opposed to illegal ones."

What's really sad is that so many of us don't even try to educate ourselves on the issues.

[jcrome04]

I think everyone needs educated on the candidates. Too many young people will just vote for Obama because MTV tells them to. I don't personally care if they DO vote for Obama or not. I just wish they would show some maturity and vote for a REASON. Same goes for McCain voters. I hope they've educated themselves on their decision. Even though I know it won't happen for a lot of people, I guess all I can do is hope right? hahah.

As for !Removed! rights, and abortion, and things like that. I think this is America. AMERICA! Maybe I don't want to get an abortion, or marry a dude, but by God this is America and I'm sure someone else might want to! So.... why stop OTHERS from living and finding THEIR American dream??

I think I can have my views and opinions, and I'll choose to surround myself with people that SHARE them. But personally I don't think they should be forced upon others. This is America. Other people will have other opinions....... ALWAYS

[SW03ES]

You are 100% right, people need to find out what these people stand for and not rely on the media to tell them who to vote for.

As for !Removed! rights, and abortion, and things like that. I think this is America. AMERICA! Maybe I don't want to get an abortion, or marry a dude, but by God this is America and I'm sure someone else might want to! So.... why stop OTHERS from living and finding THEIR American dream??

This is my position as well. This is also one of my issues with the republican party as it stands today. There is NO reason why Republicans, with their historic federalist policies, personal rights (right to bear arms, etc), aren't 100% FOR exactly what you just mentioned. Why are republicans for a constitutional ban on !Removed! marriage? Why are they for a reversal of Roe v Wade and a ban on abortion? That is not a conservative platform. Why? The religious right owns the current Republican party and !Removed! marriage and abortion are in conflict with christian morality.

THAT is the main reason why I have left the republican party. I'd rather vote for tax and spend liberals than take a chance on the radical christian right (one of the world's more evil institutions IMHO) impose their morality on others by legislating out of the bible.

[jcrome04]

I don't understand either.... just wish more people thought like us B) haha

[smooth1]

Well, I'm not a religious person in any way a church would consider, and I am for pro choice, and I am even for allowing !Removed! couples legal institutions, but not a marriage as per say, I just think a marriage has been established, and in order to be called a marriage, it has to have a wife and a husband, not 2 wives or 2 husbands. I'm for stem cell research, and I think I'm for the flat tax program, but I'm not sure on that yet. ( It has some good pros, but I think we need to figure out the cons better first.) I tend to agree that we should allways have the choice in America.

Right now we're in the biggest crisis that has happened in my lifetime anyway, and the only choice the parties could find to put up as candidates are a smooth talking political freshman puppet, and an old geiser that should really have retired almost 20 years ago. Great choices. Amazing. I'm normally not so negative. It's just that I do all the hiring for my company. And I don't think I would hire either of them for a job. And if I was put to the fire, and HAD to hire one, I would be hiring one based on thier negatives, and not based on thier attributes and qualifications. And I just don't think that should be how we determine who our next president is going to be.

I will probably vote for Obama. But to me, it's more akin to choosing between electro shock torture, or the iron maiden. I agree that the Replican party has had alot of time to get things right and messed it up badly. That they should have done alot more with the time they had, and President Bush will probably go down in history as the worst president of all the presidents we have ever had. ( personally I think that everyone that voted for Bush should not be allowed to vote this year for making such a bad choice, twice!! mind you.) LOL!! So I think if the senate is going to have a Democrat majority, then we should have a Democrat in the White house, and hopefully things will be able to get done.

And to sum this up, I don't know a whole lot about politics. These are just my opinions here. I smiled the entire time I typed this, and so I hope it hasn't offended anyone. That is not my intentions. I think alot of good people post here, and I like reading why some people feel the way they do. Even if I may not agree with thier point of view, I can definately try to understand why they feel the way they do, acknowledge it, and hope to find a solution we can all live with. That to me is America. The place I choose to call home.

[SW03ES]

Wait and see, I think Obama is going to be a great president...

[jcrome04]

Hopefully, whether I vote for him or not. I think he's most likely to win.

[lenore]

Wait and see, I think Obama is going to be a great president...

I hope you are right, I wish I knew what people really see in this young man, he is completely unknown, changes (change???) his statements to meet whatever the crowd wants to hear, and believes government is the fix for everything. That scares the hell out of me. Being a Vietnam vet, the less there is of government intervention, the better. Protect our borders, language, culture, and the constitution as it was originally wrote, that is what I see the role of government is. What we are being promised is socialism 101 and it will destroy the fabric of our representative form of government. We are treading on new dimensions with China, Russia, and third world countries rushing to be the new super powers. China was and still is the most secretive intentioned society with long term plans that could provide a clear and present threat to the balance of freedoms in the world. Russia is headed to the old guard. The Arabs are laughing all the way to the bank. Obama wants to paternize with them, just like Jimmy Carter did, and what happened? they walked all over us.

Study your history before you vote, sadly most Americans have been dumbed down to the lowest denominator and think that it is a great idea, that If you earn a great living, you should redistribute your earnings to those that dont want to or feel they are being discriminated against. The only ones that wont feel this pain are the politicians that are above it all and dont play by the rules they make. Think well friends, before you make those decisions....

[SW03ES]

Wait and see, I think Obama is going to be a great president...

I hope you are right, I wish I knew what people really see in this young man, he is completely unknown, changes (change???) his statements to meet whatever the crowd wants to hear, and believes government is the fix for everything.

I haven't seen any variability in his statements, he's had a pretty consistent message.

If anyone can't seem to pin down what he's for, its McCain IMHO...

I'll tell you exactly what we see in him, at least what I see.

1. He's young. Young and energetic.

2. He gets people excited about being Americans again.

3. He's not part of the "old crowd", he's a fresh face that will give us a fresh face on the world stage.

4. He has a populist message that is particularly powerful after the last 8 years.

Thats how I see it. Issuewise...he's pretty similar to the Clintons and we did okay there I think. I don't consider this an issue-election. We're so screwed up none of this stuff is going to get done, what he wants to do or what McCain wants to do. So, given the choice who is going to be the best leader to get us out of this mess we're in both at home, and this PR disaster we're in abroad? A fresh faced young guy who gives rousing speeches and exites people all over the world? Or John McCain who can barely walk around and who everyone at home and abroad already knows and views as part of the Washington/American establishment?

For me its not a tough choice.

[lenore]

I can understand the young and great speech giver, Obama certainly has those skills, but do you really believe in what he has stated he will do when it concerns taxes, government intervention, etc. You know LBJ started this crap with welfare, and the great society, as we have seen it is a disaster creating generations of folks that dont work, dont desire to work, and it has destroyed the American family. Its is very hard for children to have any will to do better when Mom or Dad sit at home and watch the tube all day and collect their check from good old uncle Sam at the end of the month. The system is broke, and both parties perpetuate it beyond any good. The Democrats give lip service to these very folks that we will provide you everything, But who is going to pay for it. Both parties are so far left that I dont know what will ever change it until the Moderates in both parties say enough is enough. I dont like McCain, (I was a Huckabee fan) but this is really going to be a stinking election.

[SW03ES]

Personally I don't think now is the time to raise taxes on anybody. I'm pretty fiscally conservative.

However, I have rethought many of my feelings about deregulation because of the way the wheels came off of this entire financial system. I think there needs to be SOME kind of regulation in place, the extent of which is yet to be seen.

Specifically what types of government intervention is Obama proposing you take issue with?

In terms of welfare, the system is obviously broken but thats not Obama's fault. We have much bigger problems than that to worry about right now though.

[lenore]

Obama's support of the government taking from the rich and giving to the masses, and calling it a stimulus check, particularily those of whom do not work is crazy. that is like Me saying steve, I dont work, but I want some of your money because I deserve it. Just how much, that is an unknown. What percentage of your money would you like to give me, AND what is your limit? And by the way I do not intend to work, because the government is going to take care of me. Another unreported idea of Pelousi, of whom Obama supports, is the takeover of Americans 401k and adding it to your social security with a 3% cap on growth. Oh Boy, they did such a good job handling that system, why not take over private pensions, and then tax them like crazy. This is change that we need???????

[SW03ES]

George W Bush supported a stimulus package...plenty of conservatives do too...John McCain might...I really don't know. He voted for the first one.

I make too much money to get a stimulus check, I assume you do too since you take issue with it. However, it does come back around to us in principal because the money is supposed to improve the economy which in turn helps our investments. Thats in theory though, I'm not convinced a stimulus package will help.

As for this 401k thing, show me one statement from the Obama campaign or any senior congressional Democrat in support of that idea.

Senate democrats heard testimony on the idea of cancelling 401k tax breaks in favor of a new government run plan, but nobody said anything about seizing 401k plans. Obama has said nothing about supporting even that idea, let alone seizing people's money. Show me where he has said he wants to seize money from people's 401ks? Thats preposterous and that wasn't even what the testimony was about.

Your information is right out of the republican smear machine. Read his positions and plans and stop relying on conservative blogs and media for your information about him...think for yourself.

[1990LS400]

Another unreported idea of Pelousi, of whom Obama supports, is the takeover of Americans 401k and adding it to your social security with a 3% cap on growth.

Lenore ... Breath deeply, relax, and maybe take a couple of aspirins and have a nap. If Pelosi calls you again to discuss seizing your 401K, just hang up.

-------------------------

Maybe this thread will have to be renamed or a new one started that asks, "Who voted for Obama?"

My wife voted last Friday and I voted today. We both voted for Obama.

Kansas where we live is considered to be solidly for McCain although I suspect Obama will do better here than predicted and better than Kerry did in 2004 when he carried only two Kansas counties.

Before voting for Obama today, I watched a number of McCain's speeches and interviews on Youtube and other video sites. I know McCain has to be tired with all the traveling he has been doing but the number of mistakes he is making during speeches and interviews is appalling. McCain reminds me of Reagan during his final few years in office when Reagan's mental abilities were failing.

Knowing how the mental abilities of relatives were effected by chemotherapy got me wondering if McCain had chemo after any of his four cancer surgeries. I understand now why all the fuss is being made about how McCain is using teleprompters to make most speeches while Obama is speaking without notes.

[lenore]

Unfortunately, because of Clintons a house for everyone, and the sub prime mortgage crap, my 401k and everyone else's wont have much left for the government to take. I stand corrected on that, but The Democrats through committee meetings have this in their sites, as they know the money is running out, and it just kills them to see these huge sums in the hands of Americans. The checks and balances in our government may dissappear with this election, the only solution is a third party that can counter the two that have become so alike. Hey working at Walmart may be my option....

[SW03ES]

I stand corrected on that, but The Democrats through committee meetings have this in their sites

Do some research before you form opinions. The subcommitte meeting had nothing to do with seizing 401ks, it was about ending the tax breaks for 401ks in favor of a new type of account where they would assign those same tax breaks.

Nobody has ever said anything about seizing funds in 401ks...except you and a couple radical bloggers.