Looking At Is250

[smooth1]

I'm not argueing or even debating you. Dollars to sense would tell you no nav is less expensive. But we are talking about buying a luxury car here. If a grand or two is going to really hurt, then your buying to high in the ladder anyway.

Also, the xfm and Sirrius options I meant were not on the hand helds. That the $300 or $400 price tag you quotes are for nav only, not all the other toys that come with an in-dash unit. All the in-dash units I looked at aftermarket are ranged in the same price, with the exception of options changing the overall value of each one.

1) Hassle of putting it on the dash and removing everytime you get in and out of the car. Leaving it would be an advertisement for breaking a window and snatching it. And here in Florida, if you left it on the dash, the sun would take it's toll on it pretty fast.

2) Carrying something else to the car! Man, my hands are allways full now, the last thing I need is another piece of equipment to keep track of.

3) The screens are to small. and the bigger the screen, the bigger the piece of equipment I have to carry around.

4) I don't know of anyone who has in dash nav and doesn't use it. I know plenty of people who have Tom Tom's and Garmins sitting on the counter collecting dust.

5) Even though they are Blutooth, they don't pause the music and all when the phone rings, and then bring it back up when the conversation is over.

I paid cash for my 08 IS350, I certainly could've afforded Nav.

The way I was able to pay cash for it was by not spending several grand extra on stuff that did less though :P

The $300-400 price tags I quote are for units that do MORE than the factory unit... they do nav, and bluetooth, and ALSO do realtime traffic, weather, fuel prices, movie times, stock quotes, picture viewing, currency conversion, etc...

Use a friction mount and the hassle is 10 seconds of moving it to the center console. Done. Then leave it there so you don't need to remember to take it with you, it already IS with you. You'd be as likely to use it as anything else at that point.

Now, the screen will be 4 inches instead of 7, that's true... but I've never had trouble seeing the screen... and if you do you can spend the $2000-3000 you saved on LASIK and enjoy the benefits even when NOT in the car! :)

Well, here again, I will say that I'm not debating the pros and cons for each choice. I am more pointing out that in-dash units, even factory units have some very nice features and are a plausible choice. I think we would both agree that you give up some features for others in each catagory. My brother swears by his Minivan, and loves all it has to offer, and he thinks the IS is way too small and because I don't have automatic sliding doors, it's just impossible to live happily with an IS. I on the other hand would rather walk with a permanent limp to and from work than drive a Minivan. Well, maybe if it hurt alot to walk also. But you get the meaning. Does the Minivan offer great features?, sure it does, is it "more practical"? Probably. But the IS 350 does everything that is important to me very well. And that's all that really matters. I paid cash for my IS 350 also. But I don't think it would have mattered any. I knew what I wanted.

[smooth1]

Thanks, guys. I'm more confused than ever. ;)

What is the deal if I want factory XM. Would I be better off with, or without NAV?

in either case, XFM and Sirrius is actually a seperate reciever that is installed to recieve the signal. Both and I should say most are just XFM ready, which means they are compatible and can operate those medias. So, in the Lexus, it doesn't matter if you get Nav or not, they both will be XFM ready. But, on the Nav unit, the screen would be your control center and you would have a touch screen access for all the controls, whereas the regular non nav unit you would have to use the dials and manual controls. So, it's to the advantage of Nav. but not neccassary.

[gocardinals]

Thanks, guys. I'm more confused than ever. ;)

What is the deal if I want factory XM. Would I be better off with, or without NAV?

in either case, XFM and Sirrius is actually a seperate reciever that is installed to recieve the signal. Both and I should say most are just XFM ready, which means they are compatible and can operate those medias. So, in the Lexus, it doesn't matter if you get Nav or not, they both will be XFM ready. But, on the Nav unit, the screen would be your control center and you would have a touch screen access for all the controls, whereas the regular non nav unit you would have to use the dials and manual controls. So, it's to the advantage of Nav. but not neccassary.

Thanks. I have had aftermarket XM in my last two cars, and it's a real pain. My wife has factory XM in her Audi, and it is so much better.

Does everybody else have a hard time making decisions? I swore my next car would have NAV, but I'll admit, I'm about topped out at $475. I hate to admit, it would be more for the "toy" factor.

[tex2670]

Thanks, guys. I'm more confused than ever. ;)

Of course you are. This is what happens EVERY time the Nav or No Nav question is asked.

[smooth1]

Ah yes, the great automobile paradox. Do I get a slightly less vehicle loaded?, or more car and fewer options to maintain the price line? Unfortunatley, that is a decision you will have to make on your own, as you will have to live with the decision you make. I love the IS, and how it looks. I think the IS is the best looking Lexus to date. I like the new LS, but I like the IS slightly more, and the fact the the IS is smaller, more like a coupe, but still a sedan. that's personal prefrrence though. But hey, it's just a lease right? then lease this one with no Nav. get it home. Drive it. Ask yourself as time passes, do you really want Nav? if so, then get the pocket buddy to live with for awhile. Then, when you turn it in, you'll atleast have that worked out for next time. to be honest, I can't really see 75 bucks a month for nav. I would work harder on the negotiating table first though. really push the envelope. If you get them upset, will they then refuse to sell you the car? No, you just might get a better deal is all. But if your at the end, and don't want to push it further, and you feel it's 475 or 550, then save your money for gas. B)

[gocardinals]

Ah yes, the great automobile paradox. Do I get a slightly less vehicle loaded?, or more car and fewer options to maintain the price line? Unfortunatley, that is a decision you will have to make on your own, as you will have to live with the decision you make. I love the IS, and how it looks. I think the IS is the best looking Lexus to date. I like the new LS, but I like the IS slightly more, and the fact the the IS is smaller, more like a coupe, but still a sedan. that's personal prefrrence though. But hey, it's just a lease right? then lease this one with no Nav. get it home. Drive it. Ask yourself as time passes, do you really want Nav? if so, then get the pocket buddy to live with for awhile. Then, when you turn it in, you'll atleast have that worked out for next time. to be honest, I can't really see 75 bucks a month for nav. I would work harder on the negotiating table first though. really push the envelope. If you get them upset, will they then refuse to sell you the car? No, you just might get a better deal is all. But if your at the end, and don't want to push it further, and you feel it's 475 or 550, then save your money for gas. B)

Thanks! That's probably what I needed. Like I said, I don't need NAV. It's just the "toy" factor. I just have such a hard time making decisions. Once somebody gives me a little push, I'm OK. Now, I suppose my next new Lexus friend will tell me I'll be disappointed. :D

My next dilemma will be color. My last two cars have been silver, and the wife's A4 is quartz. I was originally thinking white, but I'm not sure I like white on the IS. Love the look at black, but after a black car about 10 years ago, I said never again to black. What do you guys think of the dark gray or red?

[Randy&Bonnie]

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[Randy&Bonnie]

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[PA350]

ALL options are a matter of personal need and taste. Do you really need ML audio? really need Nav, 18" wheels?, spoiler, XM, leather, paddle shifters, floor mats, whatever....

You need to make the decision for your values, your desires, your likes, your dislikes. I happen to like the factory Nav...not as concerned about potential issues w/resale, map versions, software capabilities. But that's me and my decision. It's your money, make your own choice that makes you happy. Whatever you do someone will want your car in the future.

[gocardinals]

ALL options are a matter of personal need and taste. Do you really need ML audio? really need Nav, 18" wheels?, spoiler, XM, leather, paddle shifters, floor mats, whatever....

You need to make the decision for your values, your desires, your likes, your dislikes. I happen to like the factory Nav...not as concerned about potential issues w/resale, map versions, software capabilities. But that's me and my decision. It's your money, make your own choice that makes you happy. Whatever you do someone will want your car in the future.

Thanks. I'm really not concerned with resale value, since it's a lease.

[gocardinals]

Does the IS have a digital speedometer?

[LexRexBlue]

Using the Navigation grows on you. You don't just get the Navigation, you get the back up camera (especially good in parking lots) and the bluetooth phone connection. Many states like NJ are requiring hands free telephone usage and for the average woman its a whole lot more convenient to have it just work. Also, if you're going to be going on short trips around town taking the portable nav out, putting it back up every time is a hassle and thieves are targeting them to steal for quick cash.

I'd try for a better deal! When you negotiate for a car the more items you get the more discount you get. Honestly I don't lease so I don't know if it holds true for lease agreements, but I'd see what kind of deal you could get elsewhere with the nav. I was quite pleased with the deal I got in the end on my 2008 250 awd.

[gocardinals]

Using the Navigation grows on you. You don't just get the Navigation, you get the back up camera (especially good in parking lots) and the bluetooth phone connection. Many states like NJ are requiring hands free telephone usage and for the average woman its a whole lot more convenient to have it just work. Also, if you're going to be going on short trips around town taking the portable nav out, putting it back up every time is a hassle and thieves are targeting them to steal for quick cash.

I'd try for a better deal! When you negotiate for a car the more items you get the more discount you get. Honestly I don't lease so I don't know if it holds true for lease agreements, but I'd see what kind of deal you could get elsewhere with the nav. I was quite pleased with the deal I got in the end on my 2008 250 awd.

Thanks. I've tried 4 different places,and my home place is the best price. Anybody else lease an 08 IS AWD 250 with nav, no money down, taxes included?

[smooth1]

Using the Navigation grows on you. You don't just get the Navigation, you get the back up camera (especially good in parking lots) and the bluetooth phone connection. Many states like NJ are requiring hands free telephone usage and for the average woman its a whole lot more convenient to have it just work. Also, if you're going to be going on short trips around town taking the portable nav out, putting it back up every time is a hassle and thieves are targeting them to steal for quick cash.

I'd try for a better deal! When you negotiate for a car the more items you get the more discount you get. Honestly I don't lease so I don't know if it holds true for lease agreements, but I'd see what kind of deal you could get elsewhere with the nav. I was quite pleased with the deal I got in the end on my 2008 250 awd.

See that's what I was talking about earlier when we were going over the portable features vs. the in-dash stock unit. The stock head has touch screen radio controls and a calendar, and your phone book, and is integrated with the car much better. I wouldn't call it nav, as much as I would call it the central media control center, and it has nav, and the back up camera and all the blah blah blah's that come. I just think it enhances the driver control over the car much more effectively than any attempts in past cars I have seen. Just opinions here.

But, dang!!! It's $550.00 a month!! FI-Fity!!! <_<

[bartkat]

I don't see the resale value thing. When I looked at the ISF I told the sales guy I wanted a bare bones one like my IS350. He started in on the resale idea. There's more markup in the accessories on a car than anything else and much greater depreciation on those accessories. You can see that when you "appraise" a used car on Edmunds. I really don't think nav is going to make or break a deal on selling a 3 to 5 year old car anyway. Any self respecting enthusiast is going to know that the nav is also 3 to 5 year old technology and if he really wants that particular car he's gonna get his own new higher tech nav. I think I'll be happy with my free Magellan unit since I've driven by the seat of my pants for all these years now and seldom get lost.

Besides, my sister always trusts the nav in her Avalon. She trusts it so much that one time she ended up in the boonies way on the other side of Columbus and had to have her friend come and meet her and follow her home. Sometimes nav can get you into trouble. :D

[rishithen7]

Thanks guys for all the wonderful responses. It's definitely a tough decision. $475 definitely looks better than $550, that's for sure. Any other insight would be greatly appreciated. I'm dealing with a dealer where I have leased two previous Audi's and my MB CLK. So, they have always done me right. I called a couple of places in St. Louis, and the first one with NAV came back at $599.

DUUUUUUUDE YOU GOTTA GET NAV MAN!!!!!!!!

[smooth1]

I don't see the resale value thing. When I looked at the ISF I told the sales guy I wanted a bare bones one like my IS350. He started in on the resale idea. There's more markup in the accessories on a car than anything else and much greater depreciation on those accessories. You can see that when you "appraise" a used car on Edmunds. I really don't think nav is going to make or break a deal on selling a 3 to 5 year old car anyway. Any self respecting enthusiast is going to know that the nav is also 3 to 5 year old technology and if he really wants that particular car he's gonna get his own new higher tech nav. I think I'll be happy with my free Magellan unit since I've driven by the seat of my pants for all these years now and seldom get lost.

Besides, my sister always trusts the nav in her Avalon. She trusts it so much that one time she ended up in the boonies way on the other side of Columbus and had to have her friend come and meet her and follow her home. Sometimes nav can get you into trouble. :D

Some things you buy because you need, and some things you buy because you want. And with some of the things you need, you get what you want anyway.

When it comes to the accessory game, of course they are over priced. Everything at the dealer is overpriced. I don't ever remember buying anything from the dealer and walking out saying "Wow, I got that cheaper than I could have gotten on Ebay!, and so convienient too! " LOL! ;)

I don't think a couple accessories on the car is a bad idea. I think we are into that "to each thier own" area. I got the Nav, but didn't want the spoiler, and lip kits, and rims, and exhaust and suspension and all the cream puff goodies that come with the car. I got the Premium Package with Nav. I plan on doing all the other Mods myself. But you and I along with a few others that have posted here own the car. The OP is leasing. So it would be a waste to do any real mods to the car. So, if it were me, I would look at how much traveling do I do, and weigh my desire and need with my wallet.

[gocardinals]

Thanks guys for all the wonderful responses. It's definitely a tough decision. $475 definitely looks better than $550, that's for sure. Any other insight would be greatly appreciated. I'm dealing with a dealer where I have leased two previous Audi's and my MB CLK. So, they have always done me right. I called a couple of places in St. Louis, and the first one with NAV came back at $599.

DUUUUUUUDE YOU GOTTA GET NAV MAN!!!!!!!!

Care to sponsor my NAV for $75 a month? :D

[gocardinals]

I know $75 a month might not sound like much, but there is something about passing the magic $500 a month figure that is hard for me to justify.

[Knightshade]

Using the Navigation grows on you. You don't just get the Navigation, you get the back up camera (especially good in parking lots) and the bluetooth phone connection. Many states like NJ are requiring hands free telephone usage and for the average woman its a whole lot more convenient to have it just work. Also, if you're going to be going on short trips around town taking the portable nav out, putting it back up every time is a hassle and thieves are targeting them to steal for quick cash.

I'd try for a better deal! When you negotiate for a car the more items you get the more discount you get. Honestly I don't lease so I don't know if it holds true for lease agreements, but I'd see what kind of deal you could get elsewhere with the nav. I was quite pleased with the deal I got in the end on my 2008 250 awd.

See that's what I was talking about earlier when we were going over the portable features vs. the in-dash stock unit. The stock head has touch screen radio controls and a calendar, and your phone book, and is integrated with the car much better. I wouldn't call it nav, as much as I would call it the central media control center, and it has nav, and the back up camera and all the blah blah blah's that come. I just think it enhances the driver control over the car much more effectively than any attempts in past cars I have seen. Just opinions here.

But, dang!!! It's $550.00 a month!! FI-Fity!!! <_<

Yes, but the $300 garmin does all of that too (calendar, phone book, bluetooth, etc...)...plus the slew of added features the factory unit does NOT have. The only loss is the backup camera, and the IS is so small it's kind of a silly feature (but you can get that TOO in the aftermarket for a couple hundred bucks)

You get the -exact same- control abilities of the stereo and climate without nav, you just use a physical button instead of a virtual button for them.... and the radio, honestly, I use the steering wheel controls 95% of the time anyway...but the head unit buttons do the same thing as the ones on the touch screen would.

Now, the ML option, in contrast, I specifically ordered that... because it added $752 to the total price, and there's no way I could have gotten that good an audio upgrade from the aftermarket for a total of $752 installed with a 4 year warranty. Not even close really.

So I don't mind paying extra for an option when it does more than I can get for less elsewhere... the nav just don't qualify for Lexus though.

This is one area the G35 outshined the IS350 during my test drives (one of the only areas, hence my buying the 350)- the factory nav on the infiniti DID offer realtime traffic and some of the more advanced multimedia features the Lexus system was lacking...and it cost less too.

Some car makers are even offering the other advanced MSN direct features on their nav systems now (the realtime local fuel, movie, weather, etc info).... Lexus is just still pushing a VERY dated technology setup for a VERY premium price these days.

[tex2670]

Using the Navigation grows on you. You don't just get the Navigation, you get the back up camera (especially good in parking lots) and the bluetooth phone connection. Many states like NJ are requiring hands free telephone usage and for the average woman its a whole lot more convenient to have it just work. Also, if you're going to be going on short trips around town taking the portable nav out, putting it back up every time is a hassle and thieves are targeting them to steal for quick cash.

I'd try for a better deal! When you negotiate for a car the more items you get the more discount you get. Honestly I don't lease so I don't know if it holds true for lease agreements, but I'd see what kind of deal you could get elsewhere with the nav. I was quite pleased with the deal I got in the end on my 2008 250 awd.

See that's what I was talking about earlier when we were going over the portable features vs. the in-dash stock unit. The stock head has touch screen radio controls and a calendar, and your phone book, and is integrated with the car much better. I wouldn't call it nav, as much as I would call it the central media control center, and it has nav, and the back up camera and all the blah blah blah's that come. I just think it enhances the driver control over the car much more effectively than any attempts in past cars I have seen. Just opinions here.

But, dang!!! It's $550.00 a month!! FI-Fity!!! <_<

Yes, but the $300 garmin does all of that too (calendar, phone book, bluetooth, etc...)...plus the slew of added features the factory unit does NOT have. The only loss is the backup camera, and the IS is so small it's kind of a silly feature (but you can get that TOO in the aftermarket for a couple hundred bucks)

You get the -exact same- control abilities of the stereo and climate without nav, you just use a physical button instead of a virtual button for them.... and the radio, honestly, I use the steering wheel controls 95% of the time anyway...but the head unit buttons do the same thing as the ones on the touch screen would.

Now, the ML option, in contrast, I specifically ordered that... because it added $752 to the total price, and there's no way I could have gotten that good an audio upgrade from the aftermarket for a total of $752 installed with a 4 year warranty. Not even close really.

So I don't mind paying extra for an option when it does more than I can get for less elsewhere... the nav just don't qualify for Lexus though.

This is one area the G35 outshined the IS350 during my test drives (one of the only areas, hence my buying the 350)- the factory nav on the infiniti DID offer realtime traffic and some of the more advanced multimedia features the Lexus system was lacking...and it cost less too.

Some car makers are even offering the other advanced MSN direct features on their nav systems now (the realtime local fuel, movie, weather, etc info).... Lexus is just still pushing a VERY dated technology setup for a VERY premium price these days.

Seriously, who here uses the Nav System calendar?? If that's the justification for buying that nav, it's a stretch. Back up camera, Bluetooth integrated into the car's speaker/stereo system, bigger clearer screen, better dead reckoning capabilities, always there at your finger tips, and not in the glove compartment--those are the REAL reasons for factory nav. Integrated controls? The base car has controls integrated into the dash--better ones actually, because you don't have to switch screens to control stereo, A/C, etc.

Seriously--if you are already stretched for your monthly payment, either skip the nav, or buy a cheaper car and get nav with that car. If you are willing and able to spend the $$, and you like having factory nav, get it. If you think it's a waste of $$, get a portable. It's that simple--this thread is already 3 pages long, and there is no consensus--and there won't be. It's your car--do what you want.

[gocardinals]

Using the Navigation grows on you. You don't just get the Navigation, you get the back up camera (especially good in parking lots) and the bluetooth phone connection. Many states like NJ are requiring hands free telephone usage and for the average woman its a whole lot more convenient to have it just work. Also, if you're going to be going on short trips around town taking the portable nav out, putting it back up every time is a hassle and thieves are targeting them to steal for quick cash.

I'd try for a better deal! When you negotiate for a car the more items you get the more discount you get. Honestly I don't lease so I don't know if it holds true for lease agreements, but I'd see what kind of deal you could get elsewhere with the nav. I was quite pleased with the deal I got in the end on my 2008 250 awd.

See that's what I was talking about earlier when we were going over the portable features vs. the in-dash stock unit. The stock head has touch screen radio controls and a calendar, and your phone book, and is integrated with the car much better. I wouldn't call it nav, as much as I would call it the central media control center, and it has nav, and the back up camera and all the blah blah blah's that come. I just think it enhances the driver control over the car much more effectively than any attempts in past cars I have seen. Just opinions here.

But, dang!!! It's $550.00 a month!! FI-Fity!!! <_<

Yes, but the $300 garmin does all of that too (calendar, phone book, bluetooth, etc...)...plus the slew of added features the factory unit does NOT have. The only loss is the backup camera, and the IS is so small it's kind of a silly feature (but you can get that TOO in the aftermarket for a couple hundred bucks)

You get the -exact same- control abilities of the stereo and climate without nav, you just use a physical button instead of a virtual button for them.... and the radio, honestly, I use the steering wheel controls 95% of the time anyway...but the head unit buttons do the same thing as the ones on the touch screen would.

Now, the ML option, in contrast, I specifically ordered that... because it added $752 to the total price, and there's no way I could have gotten that good an audio upgrade from the aftermarket for a total of $752 installed with a 4 year warranty. Not even close really.

So I don't mind paying extra for an option when it does more than I can get for less elsewhere... the nav just don't qualify for Lexus though.

This is one area the G35 outshined the IS350 during my test drives (one of the only areas, hence my buying the 350)- the factory nav on the infiniti DID offer realtime traffic and some of the more advanced multimedia features the Lexus system was lacking...and it cost less too.

Some car makers are even offering the other advanced MSN direct features on their nav systems now (the realtime local fuel, movie, weather, etc info).... Lexus is just still pushing a VERY dated technology setup for a VERY premium price these days.

Seriously, who here uses the Nav System calendar?? If that's the justification for buying that nav, it's a stretch. Back up camera, Bluetooth integrated into the car's speaker/stereo system, bigger clearer screen, better dead reckoning capabilities, always there at your finger tips, and not in the glove compartment--those are the REAL reasons for factory nav. Integrated controls? The base car has controls integrated into the dash--better ones actually, because you don't have to switch screens to control stereo, A/C, etc.

Seriously--if you are already stretched for your monthly payment, either skip the nav, or buy a cheaper car and get nav with that car. If you are willing and able to spend the $$, and you like having factory nav, get it. If you think it's a waste of $$, get a portable. It's that simple--this thread is already 3 pages long, and there is no consensus--and there won't be. It's your car--do what you want.

Thanks. Sorry for taking up 4 pages with my questions. I must say, I am so impressed with how helpful and friendly everybody has been.

[clay1]

Don't apologize. You had a legitimate question.

[smooth1]

I wasn't implying that the calender was an awsome feature, I was just making a point that we aren't just talking about nav here. It's the whole system with the nav.

And as far as the controls go, I use the steering wheel also, but I have the Ipod interface, and it is really nice being able to operate it on the touch screen. And I like the menus and the ability to navigate the controls thru the screen much better. If they had a touch screen control center that didn't include nav, then I would suggest that as an alternative. Atleast then you don't give up all the other nice things that the touch screen comes with. and by the way, doesn't real time traffic come with XFM? You have to be subscribed to XFM to get that right? and do you need any nav to have the real time traffic? I thought that was an XFM feature, not a Nav feature.

And here again, IF your going to add an in dash nav unit, or later decide you want it, then the stock Nav is not a bad choice in either dollars or technology. I'm all for after-market products and doing all kinds of modifications and personalizing your car.

The hand helds are an ok option also. IF you don't mind the extra hassles that can come with them, or if you only need it once in awhile. I'm not argueing the benefits of one over the other. The question was is it worth the extra 75 bucks a month. I agree, it's not, but I do love having the nav system. So I think going back in there and just making them give it to you in order to make the deal happen is my first choice, or making them couph up some more discount so you don't have to give it up. But, if you can't make that happen, then just get the car without the Nav and if you find you really do want it, then you can get a pocket buddy later, or wait til the end of the lease and get it on the next car.

[gocardinals]

I wasn't implying that the calender was an awsome feature, I was just making a point that we aren't just talking about nav here. It's the whole system with the nav.

And as far as the controls go, I use the steering wheel also, but I have the Ipod interface, and it is really nice being able to operate it on the touch screen. And I like the menus and the ability to navigate the controls thru the screen much better. If they had a touch screen control center that didn't include nav, then I would suggest that as an alternative. Atleast then you don't give up all the other nice things that the touch screen comes with. and by the way, doesn't real time traffic come with XFM? You have to be subscribed to XFM to get that right? and do you need any nav to have the real time traffic? I thought that was an XFM feature, not a Nav feature.

And here again, IF your going to add an in dash nav unit, or later decide you want it, then the stock Nav is not a bad choice in either dollars or technology. I'm all for after-market products and doing all kinds of modifications and personalizing your car.

The hand helds are an ok option also. IF you don't mind the extra hassles that can come with them, or if you only need it once in awhile. I'm not argueing the benefits of one over the other. The question was is it worth the extra 75 bucks a month. I agree, it's not, but I do love having the nav system. So I think going back in there and just making them give it to you in order to make the deal happen is my first choice, or making them couph up some more discount so you don't have to give it up. But, if you can't make that happen, then just get the car without the Nav and if you find you really do want it, then you can get a pocket buddy later, or wait til the end of the lease and get it on the next car.

Thanks. I know you are supposed to deal by car price, instead of payment. But, payment is the way I'm used to doing it. How much does anybody realistically think they would come down for NAV? Like I said, they are saying $475 (no money down, taxes included) without NAV, and $550 with NAV.