Ls 400 And A Gravel Road. Is This A Bad Idea?

[Crusty1]

Looking to buy a used LS 400 and have a ton of questions. I bought property in the country that is 1 mile on a private gravel road. I'll be settling there long term and want to know how a LS 400 would handle 1 mile of gravel with a few pot holes here and there. I know this sounds corny...why not buy an SUV. I've got 2! I just hate having to drive either of the beasts for just a mile of gravel because it acccounts for about 2-3% of my travel once I hit the pavement. My "deceased" Camry needed a new set of struts after 2 years of this driving out here. Did the work myself and bought free lifetime replacements just in case. Just wondering how the LS would hold up if I wasn't barreling down at 45mph! Thanks.

[raymsixsix]

Hey Crusty, I grew up in the caribbean and we didn't have paved roads for many years. Just before we got paved roads, we had about three years of gravel roads and what we noticed was that the tires on our cars would get chewed up. I don't remember about struts wearing out prematurely, but definately the tires would take the beating. You say that you have a mile a day of driving on the gravel, I don't think that you would notice that drastic of a change by driving it for that little bit. When are you planning on picking up your LS?

[wwest]

Looking to buy a used LS 400 and have a ton of questions. I bought property in the country that is 1 mile on a private gravel road. I'll be settling there long term and want to know how a LS 400 would handle 1 mile of gravel with a few pot holes here and there. I know this sounds corny...why not buy an SUV. I've got 2! I just hate having to drive either of the beasts for just a mile of gravel because it acccounts for about 2-3% of my travel once I hit the pavement. My "deceased" Camry needed a new set of struts after 2 years of this driving out here. Did the work myself and bought free lifetime replacements just in case. Just wondering how the LS would hold up if I wasn't barreling down at 45mph! Thanks.

No problem, just use reasonable speed judgment on the gravel section and GO......!!

Especially since you have an SUV for backup during the winter.

[VMF]

i take all my cars "offroading", even my dropped civic during my camping or hiking trips. so far no damage whatsoever, and im not talkin about gravel, im talkin bout stones, grass etc, and sometimes no road:)

[jainla]

I might avoid buying an older car with air suspension as it will be costly to fix; but otherwise the LS are really sturdy cars.

i take all my cars "offroading", even my dropped civic during my camping or hiking trips. so far no damage whatsoever, and im not talkin about gravel, im talkin bout stones, grass etc, and sometimes no road:)

[wwest]

I might avoid buying an older car with air suspension as it will be costly to fix; but otherwise the LS are really sturdy cars.

i take all my cars "offroading", even my dropped civic during my camping or hiking trips. so far no damage whatsoever, and im not talkin about gravel, im talkin bout stones, grass etc, and sometimes no road:)

Actually one might wonder (I do) if driven sensibly the air suspension might just endure those potholes somewhat better, comfort and relaibility, over a spring/strut system.

I know of two LSes with air suspension, a '91 (brother's) and a '92 (mine) both approaching 150,000 miles and no problems other than PS pump.

[Crusty1]

Hey Crusty, I grew up in the caribbean and we didn't have paved roads for many years. Just before we got paved roads, we had about three years of gravel roads and what we noticed was that the tires on our cars would get chewed up. I don't remember about struts wearing out prematurely, but definately the tires would take the beating. You say that you have a mile a day of driving on the gravel, I don't think that you would notice that drastic of a change by driving it for that little bit. When are you planning on picking up your LS?

I'm trying to be patient but I'm hoping to pull the trigger in the next week. I'm talking to a lot of guys here in the Portland area and a few on Ebay. Ebay is like buying wholesale...but then it's a crap shoot. I'd really like to get a good enough deal that way if something doesn't work out I can flip it without eating too much deprec. I'm trying to "be cool" about it and not rush into something but this cash is buring a hole in my pocket real fast if you know what I mean!

[Crusty1]

Also, while I'm soliciting input. I've come accross 2 groups of cars: super nice and spendy; little less nice but really cheap. Example: 1994 LS 400 131K decent condition, asking $4995. I can pick up locally no shipping and I get to drive in person. 1998 LS 400 85k, awesome condition visually, asking 11,995. I can do a lot of repair work for $7 grand. And then I know what I've got. This example is a little lopsided but I see a lot of this. Cheap higher milage cars, expensive ($11500 for a 1995 w/ 26K original miles) lower milage cars. I bought my suburban 4 years ago and paid clean retail and it was in mint condish...then I just spend 5k in the past year for new tranny, transfer case, and rear end. I also replaced intake gaskets myself. I could have bought a rig with more miles for $5-6 k less and spent the money on repairs. What do you think is the best value?

[90LS400Lexus]

Since the car will be driven on rugged terrain, I would suggest the lower price car.

Also, while I'm soliciting input. I've come accross 2 groups of cars: super nice and spendy; little less nice but really cheap. Example: 1994 LS 400 131K decent condition, asking $4995. I can pick up locally no shipping and I get to drive in person. 1998 LS 400 85k, awesome condition visually, asking 11,995. I can do a lot of repair work for $7 grand. And then I know what I've got. This example is a little lopsided but I see a lot of this. Cheap higher milage cars, expensive ($11500 for a 1995 w/ 26K original miles) lower milage cars. I bought my suburban 4 years ago and paid clean retail and it was in mint condish...then I just spend 5k in the past year for new tranny, transfer case, and rear end. I also replaced intake gaskets myself. I could have bought a rig with more miles for $5-6 k less and spent the money on repairs. What do you think is the best value?

[1990LS400]

First of all, a 1994 LS400 and a 1998 LS400 are not equivalent cars. I owned a 1990 LS400 for 13+ years and it was the same generation and very similar to the 1994 LS400. Now I have a 2000 LS400 which is virtually identical to the 1998 LS400.

I found the two generations of LS400s to be so different that I found it hard to believe that they were from the same manufacturer let alone the same model. The driving experience is completely different. You might find the gen 1 LS400 a little more "sporty" but the 98-00 LS400 handles quite nicely. The interior of the 98 LS400 feels and is substantially larger than the 94 LS400 including at least two more inches of rear leg room. The seating position of the 98 is higher and more like sitting in an armchair. The 98 has a 5 speed transmission and vastly more power - and gets better gas mileage. And the 98 has side air bags, VSC and the "snow" transmission mode. The radio antenna is in the rear window of the 98; in the 94 you have a motor driven antenna to deal with and occasionally fix. We will NEVER buy a another car without a VSC type stability control system - I consider it the single most important automotive advancement in the last 10 years. And the 98 has the "de-powered" (safer) airbags which all cars had starting in 1998. The 98 LS even has a much more complex and feature rich keyless entry system with a remote trunk opener and being able to open all windows and sunroof remotely as you approach the car on a hot day. Most 98 LS400s have auto leveling HID lights too - but even if the one you are considering does not, the headlights are still vastly superior to the headlights on the 94 LS400.

I could write a book about the differences between these two generations. The 1994 LS400 is a very good car. But by comparison, the 1998 LS400 is an incredible car.

I drive on gravel roads quite a bit too which is one of the reasons I bought a set of mudflaps for my 2000 LS400 from a dealer in Victoria BC. I bought a set for my previous 90 LS400 in England in 1990.

[90LS400Lexus]

And though it has been discussed a million times here, another big difference between the 90-94 LS400 and the 98+ LS400 is that timing belt change is critical on the 98+ models, because they have interference engines, whereas the 90-94s do not. If the belt snaps, not a problem... throw on a new one. On the 98+ if it snaps, $$$$ repairs! With that change though, the 98+ has more power! You may want to do a little more research on the two cars. What 90 said is right- the 98+ is a much more advanced automobile.

Good luck with your selection!

[Crusty1]

First of all, a 1994 LS400 and a 1998 LS400 are not equivalent cars. I owned a 1990 LS400 for 13+ years and it was the same generation and very similar to the 1994 LS400. Now I have a 2000 LS400 which is virtually identical to the 1998 LS400.

I found the two generations of LS400s to be so different that I found it hard to believe that they were from the same manufacturer let alone the same model. The driving experience is completely different. You might find the gen 1 LS400 a little more "sporty" but the 98-00 LS400 handles quite nicely. The interior of the 98 LS400 feels and is substantially larger than the 94 LS400 including at least two more inches of rear leg room. The seating position of the 98 is higher and more like sitting in an armchair. The 98 has a 5 speed transmission and vastly more power - and gets better gas mileage. And the 98 has side air bags, VSC and the "snow" transmission mode. The radio antenna is in the rear window of the 98; in the 94 you have a motor driven antenna to deal with and occasionally fix. We will NEVER buy a another car without a VSC type stability control system - I consider it the single most important automotive advancement in the last 10 years. And the 98 has the "de-powered" (safer) airbags which all cars had starting in 1998. The 98 LS even has a much more complex and feature rich keyless entry system with a remote trunk opener and being able to open all windows and sunroof remotely as you approach the car on a hot day. Most 98 LS400s have auto leveling HID lights too - but even if the one you are considering does not, the headlights are still vastly superior to the headlights on the 94 LS400.

I could write a book about the differences between these two generations. The 1994 LS400 is a very good car. But by comparison, the 1998 LS400 is an incredible car.

I drive on gravel roads quite a bit too which is one of the reasons I bought a set of mudflaps for my 2000 LS400 from a dealer in Victoria BC. I bought a set for my previous 90 LS400 in England in 1990.

And though it has been discussed a million times here, another big difference between the 90-94 LS400 and the 98+ LS400 is that timing belt change is critical on the 98+ models, because they have interference engines, whereas the 90-94s do not. If the belt snaps, not a problem... throw on a new one. On the 98+ if it snaps, $$$$ repairs! With that change though, the 98+ has more power! You may want to do a little more research on the two cars. What 90 said is right- the 98+ is a much more advanced automobile.

Good luck with your selection!

Great minds must thing alike!! In the past 3 hours of internet reading I've come to the conclusion that I'll be spending the extra...my wife that is...$$$$ and getting a 97-99, preferably 98 or newer. But the interference issue does make me a little nervous. If I can't verify if the timing belt was done from maintenance records I really don't want to trust a used car salesman or owner and then have it go and need to replace the whole engine. Is there a way to definatively tell if the TB has been in fact changed and when? If not I'd probably do it myself or pay to have it done. Last repair I did was a water pump on my 1 ton Dodge van and that was a @#$@#$#$ of a job!!

[90LS400Lexus]

Sorry, did not mean to steer you away from the 98+, because they are great cars, but I would be 100% sure that the timing belt has been changed and not due. If it is, not a big deal, as you can have it changed, but it can range in price from $500-1500, depending upon where you go or who does it. Dealer prices vary widely across the nation. I just would not want to pay $$$$$ for a LS needing this done, then to have it snap. That was one reason I sold my 2000 Toyota Tundra V8. It had a VVt-i interference engine and was past due for change. @ the time, I could not afford $$$ for a t-belt change, so I sold it. :(

If the t-belt was done at a Toyota/Lexus dealer, it should have a little sticker on the top front of the engine bay area stating last mileage change. Also, if it was changed at a dealer, they should have a record of it on the computers. My 91' LS400 had the t-belt changed by the previous owner at 188K (has 209K now), so I am good to go, but since it is an non-interference engine, I do not have to worry about it for a long time. It was changed at a Lexus dealer in Atlanta and they charged $1300, which included water pump. My local dealer wanted $500 for the same task. If it was done at a independent shop, there may not be a sticker, but the PO hopefully kept a receipt of this. I am not sure how hard it is to do, but something I would not want to tackle myself.

You mentioned a 97-99.... you may know, the 1997s are different than the 1998+ models. The 1997 is like the 1995-96 models, which appear more like the 98-00 models. In a way, they are a little like the 90-94s, except they are a little larger, roomier and more advanced, but strangely, they are lighter in weight than the 1990-94s. I always thought that the 95-97s had the same basic engine as the 90-94s, but I have also heard some people say that these are interference engines as well. This generation of Lexus (1995-1997) have been the most disputed on whether or not they have interference engines or not. Everyone agrees and knows that the 1990-94s do not and that the 1998-2008s are... but there are still different opinions on the 95-97s. Strange.

Good luck!

Great minds must thing alike!! In the past 3 hours of internet reading I've come to the conclusion that I'll be spending the extra...my wife that is...$$$$ and getting a 97-99, preferably 98 or newer. But the interference issue does make me a little nervous. If I can't verify if the timing belt was done from maintenance records I really don't want to trust a used car salesman or owner and then have it go and need to replace the whole engine. Is there a way to definatively tell if the TB has been in fact changed and when? If not I'd probably do it myself or pay to have it done. Last repair I did was a water pump on my 1 ton Dodge van and that was a @#$@#$#$ of a job!!

[Crusty1]

Sorry, did not mean to steer you away from the 98+, because they are great cars, but I would be 100% sure that the timing belt has been changed and not due. If it is, not a big deal, as you can have it changed, but it can range in price from $500-1500, depending upon where you go or who does it. Dealer prices vary widely across the nation. I just would not want to pay $$$$$ for a LS needing this done, then to have it snap. That was one reason I sold my 2000 Toyota Tundra V8. It had a VVt-i interference engine and was past due for change. @ the time, I could not afford $$$ for a t-belt change, so I sold it. :(

If the t-belt was done at a Toyota/Lexus dealer, it should have a little sticker on the top front of the engine bay area stating last mileage change. Also, if it was changed at a dealer, they should have a record of it on the computers. My 91' LS400 had the t-belt changed by the previous owner at 188K (has 209K now), so I am good to go, but since it is an non-interference engine, I do not have to worry about it for a long time. It was changed at a Lexus dealer in Atlanta and they charged $1300, which included water pump. My local dealer wanted $500 for the same task. If it was done at a independent shop, there may not be a sticker, but the PO hopefully kept a receipt of this. I am not sure how hard it is to do, but something I would not want to tackle myself.

You mentioned a 97-99.... you may know, the 1997s are different than the 1998+ models. The 1997 is like the 1995-96 models, which appear more like the 98-00 models. In a way, they are a little like the 90-94s, except they are a little larger, roomier and more advanced, but strangely, they are lighter in weight than the 1990-94s. I always thought that the 95-97s had the same basic engine as the 90-94s, but I have also heard some people say that these are interference engines as well. This generation of Lexus (1995-1997) have been the most disputed on whether or not they have interference engines or not. Everyone agrees and knows that the 1990-94s do not and that the 1998-2008s are... but there are still different opinions on the 95-97s. Strange.

Good luck!

Did a little internet searching last night and found sound clues to the 1995-1997 "interference" issue. This may be common knowledge to many but not to me so I'm going to put a call or two in to the local Lexus dealer here in Portland, OR and maybe Seattle to see for sure. From what I found I'm pretty sure the interference engine model started somewhere as early as 95. This link appears to point to that: http://www.racepages.com/parts/timing_belt/lexus.html

[Threadcutter]

Did a little internet searching last night and found sound clues to the 1995-1997 "interference" issue. This may be common knowledge to many but not to me so I'm going to put a call or two in to the local Lexus dealer here in Portland, OR and maybe Seattle to see for sure. From what I found I'm pretty sure the interference engine model started somewhere as early as 95. This link appears to point to that: http://www.racepages.com/parts/timing_belt/lexus.html

Crusty1:

I can tell you with absolute, 100% certainty that 1UZFE, '95 through '97 IS DEFINITELY an interference engine. I've been down this road and I'd take what any of the stealers tell you with a great big grain of salt. They either just plain don't know or are too lazy to ask any of their mechanics that do know. Spending money at their parts counter doesn't seem to make them any smarter either. Been there, done that.

In any event, stay on top of the T/B change just like it was a '98 or newer and you'll be fine.

[wwest]

Did a little internet searching last night and found sound clues to the 1995-1997 "interference" issue. This may be common knowledge to many but not to me so I'm going to put a call or two in to the local Lexus dealer here in Portland, OR and maybe Seattle to see for sure. From what I found I'm pretty sure the interference engine model started somewhere as early as 95. This link appears to point to that: http://www.racepages.com/parts/timing_belt/lexus.html

Crusty1:

I can tell you with absolute, 100% certainty that 1UZFE, '95 through '97 IS DEFINITELY an interference engine. I've been down this road and I'd take what any of the stealers tell you with a great big grain of salt. They either just plain don't know or are too lazy to ask any of their mechanics that do know. Spending money at their parts counter doesn't seem to make them any smarter either. Been there, done that.

In any event, stay on top of the T/B change just like it was a '98 or newer and you'll be fine.

The concern about timing belt failure is SERIOUSLY OVERBLOWN. Does anyone know of a timing belt that actualy failured prior to say, 250,000 miles?

Of three LSes that I know of, the 95 had the belt changed at 90,000 miles, the mechanic said it appeared to have been needless. The car now has 210,000 miles and there is no plan to address the timing belt issue again until maybe say 300,000 miles. My brother's 91 LS has over 150,000 miles as does a friends 92 without the timing belt be changed out. I happened to walk into a garage bay as a 92 LS's belt was being replaced at ~150,000 and even the mechanic had to agree that it did not exhibit the typical timing belt wear criteria for a change over.

[Threadcutter]

The concern about timing belt failure is SERIOUSLY OVERBLOWN. Does anyone know of a timing belt that actualy failured prior to say, 250,000 miles?

Of three LSes that I know of, the 95 had the belt changed at 90,000 miles, the mechanic said it appeared to have been needless. The car now has 210,000 miles and there is no plan to address the timing belt issue again until maybe say 300,000 miles. My brother's 91 LS has over 150,000 miles as does a friends 92 without the timing belt be changed out. I happened to walk into a garage bay as a 92 LS's belt was being replaced at ~150,000 and even the mechanic had to agree that it did not exhibit the typical timing belt wear criteria for a change over.

W:

While I don't dispute anything you say above, primarily because T/B replacement is one heck of a revenue generator for the stealers, I'm merely trying to illustrate that it's a lot easier to ignore the issue when it's a non-interference engine. Case in point; a couple of weeks ago, my daughter calls me and says her car just "stopped". Long story short, it's a 1990 (210 K miles) Subaru Legacy, handed down from the wife to the daughter. And of course, the wife always made sure that the maintenance was kept up to date......... <_<

Anyway, $400 + $60 Tow bill later, new timing belt & water pump & the daughter is back on the road. Not a big deal, less than 5 bills out the door. Conversely, if the belt lets loose on a '95 through '97 (actually, '95 or newer.....), you might as well total the car for all of the valve train/piston damage that will result. Yes, JDMs are available, but what a PITA to have to go through.

Yes, the cost, particularly from a stealer for T/B replacement is over the top, but in my opinion, pales in comparison to the consequences of failure.

I think it just boils down to a matter of individual opinion. Mine is that I'm not going to risk it.

[Crusty1]

Soooo. After 5 hours of the phone today trying to work my "magic" I've come down to 2 cars of interest. Both 99s. One has 77K the other 92k. Both are 1 owner trade ins for new LS460s. The first with 77k was listed at $17700. I've got him down to 14,000 just from telephone conversations. My ace in the hole is the 90k mainteance that I'm using as a bargaining tool because after all it's coming up soon and it's going to cost me $1500 to do ( I may drive the car for a year or two and not do the TB anyway). The other car with 92k on it has just had it's 90k full service and was listed at $16995; I've got it down to $13,100 after 3 phone conversations. I'd really like to get the 77k car down in the low 13,000 range as well but think this might be pushing it. I've yet to drive either but have perused large volumes of pics on both. Both of these cars are within a 300 mile distance so I can see them if I don't mind the drive. My only leverage has been "If I like the car I scribble your name here, and my name there on the check and we both go home smiling." So far so good. I can save about $1000-1500 on comarable cars going "fleabay" if I want to roll the dice. I'm a risk taker but I'm not sure I'm ready for the "e-carmony" route to car buying where all you get is a picture and a bunch of internet correspondence yet. I like to choose my rides in person, regardless. What do you guys think?

[90LS400Lexus]

I am not sure of your exact location (I am assuming from the info you have there that you are in the Pacific Northwest), but those prices seem lofty to me, but that may be normal for up there. They seem to be cheaper here in the Southeast and Atlantic Southeast. There was a local 98' LS here that I was looking at last month for $9600., with 103K- 1-owner, in EC.

Like I said, those may be excellent prices though for your area. Good luck!

[Crusty1]

I am not sure of your exact location (I am assuming from the info you have there that you are in the Pacific Northwest), but those prices seem lofty to me, but that may be normal for up there. They seem to be cheaper here in the Southeast and Atlantic Southeast. There was a local 98' LS here that I was looking at last month for $9600., with 103K- 1-owner, in EC.

Like I said, those may be excellent prices though for your area. Good luck!

I went to drive the 99 with 79k on it that the sales mgr. and agreed to sell over the phone for $14k. It drove excellent and looked impecable...but. From the cafax history I saw 3 owners not 1 like dealer said. Also, the car was from the oregon coast...very wet area. I saw rust back on the rotors/hubs. After I decided to make an offer, I offered $13000 cash. He countered with $15999. WTH!!! He finally came down to 14k but by then I was so *BLEEP*ed off I just got up and walked! Almost made it to my car with the Lexus keys still in my pocket! Now that would have been a true steal!! Guys around here are delusional. I can buy a Florida 1 owner lexus serviced 99 LS off Ebay for $10k plus 1k shipping. I know, Ebay. But around here they're nuts. I've gone back to looking at ES300s.

[90LS400Lexus]

I bought my 91' LS off of ebay and had it shipped for $295, but that was only from middle Georgia to north Tennessee. As long as the seller has a good rep, you should be OK.

BTW - I drove back by that local 98' LS today at that carlot and they have reduced it to $8995.

I am not sure of your exact location (I am assuming from the info you have there that you are in the Pacific Northwest), but those prices seem lofty to me, but that may be normal for up there. They seem to be cheaper here in the Southeast and Atlantic Southeast. There was a local 98' LS here that I was looking at last month for $9600., with 103K- 1-owner, in EC.

Like I said, those may be excellent prices though for your area. Good luck!

I went to drive the 99 with 79k on it that the sales mgr. and agreed to sell over the phone for $14k. It drove excellent and looked impecable...but. From the cafax history I saw 3 owners not 1 like dealer said. Also, the car was from the oregon coast...very wet area. I saw rust back on the rotors/hubs. After I decided to make an offer, I offered $13000 cash. He countered with $15999. WTH!!! He finally came down to 14k but by then I was so *BLEEP*ed off I just got up and walked! Almost made it to my car with the Lexus keys still in my pocket! Now that would have been a true steal!! Guys around here are delusional. I can buy a Florida 1 owner lexus serviced 99 LS off Ebay for $10k plus 1k shipping. I know, Ebay. But around here they're nuts. I've gone back to looking at ES300s.

[Crusty1]

Well it looks like I've sealed the deal on 98 LS 400 for $9600 plus shipping (another $900 because of distance). I hesitated to buy a car I hadn't driven but I can walk away when it arrives if it's not what I expected...as far as the contract goes. It's a savings of over $2500 from the 98 I drove today with only 65k on it. But for only 65k it seemed to have chrono and wear age than mile-age. We'll see how this goes when it gets here in a week or so.

[90LS400Lexus]

Sounds great! How many miles on the 98' you purchased?

We want to see photos of it when you get it! Hope you are satisified with it! I am sure you will be.