Should I Claim Insurance?

[RX in NC]

Good points on the subprime credit crisis, nc211. And you're spot-on with your gas price predictions for the rest of 2008. But future "normal" gas prices are yet to be defined. One thing's for sure - anyone waiting for two bucks a gallon again will have to sit by the curb indefinitely....

I love the good ol' US of A as much as anyone and don't even want to leave it to travel in this day and age. I've been a registered Republican since becoming old enough to vote in 1972 and am as fiscally conservative as anyone you can find. But the Bush administration's incompetence and stupidity has set this country back decades from both an economic standpoint and a global policy standpoint. It will take years to recover regardless of who's in the White House come 2009. There is absolutely NOTHING unpatriotic about voicing considerable skepticism concerning this nation's leadership given what it has put us through over the past five years. Bush will take his place in history as the worst president in at least the past 100 years. As I said years ago, no one with a tested IQ of 91 should EVER be allowed to occupy the White House....

As far as recession is concerned, the data that I use on a daily basis in my options research has been telling me since late October that the majority of this country is already in the early stages of what could turn out to be a moderate one (as recessions go, anyway). So if you think you're not going to be affected by recession, check your fuel bill, your grocery bill, the fees and taxes that you pay on routine services such as telecom, cable, etc., and ask the homeowners in California and Florida if they don't think their home values have suffered yet....

Yep, we still live in a top-tier country. And yep, we're better off than most of the rest of the world. But our quality of life has slipped considerably, and the financial security of our children and grandchildren has been inexcusably diminished by the incompetent and irresponsible actions of the current administration. For the first time in history, young voters and first-time voters will decide a presidential election. And unfortunately for the Republican Party, the overwhelming anti-Bush sentiment that has swept this country over the past two years will prevent the Republican candidate from having any chance of winning regardless of how "fit" or "qualified" he is....

[JIBBBY]

Man, I've heard it all...Again the media has infuenced.... I here alot of blame coming onto the Bush administration in regards to the state of our current economy... Hogwash I say, the facts are so clear, trends, years of low interest rates, borrowed consumer money (refi's) to accomadate on going consumer spending, etc..... Just one example is this is: Interest rates have been so low for so long driving home prices thru the roof, interest only loans to purchase these homes were the consumers "green light to own a home"... Now that the interest rates started to go up for a while, homes values depreciated over night, home sales decreased, interest rate only morgages started to go up and then what happens is there is simply no more equity in the homes to pull out more money and continue consumer spending...(the basis to the economic engine) What happens next boys and girls? Consumer spending decreased, home forclosures start pending, and the market and the economy suffers as reality hits...

Now did Bush have anything to do with that? I think not... It's timing, and basically history repeating itself... The market goes up it goes down, Real Estate prices rise they fall, recessions happen and so do depressions and wars... History, econonmy, have always had a way of repeating itself.... It's nothing more then that..

Now I must say I am not pro Bush fan, and I do believe he could have done a better job in office, but to say he and his administration is to blame for the countries current economic problems is a bit unjust...I think if Bill Clinton were still in office we would be in the same boat economically... That's my take...

[SW03ES]

I never blamed Bush for the current state of our economy. I did however blame Bush for getting us imbroiled into this conflict that we never should have been in, wasting huge amounts of our money and running up huge defecits and increasing the national debt when we HAD a surplus.

These things have a big effect on the economy, but there are a lot of outside issues also he doesn't directly have any control over.

Now that the interest rates started to go up for a while, homes values depreciated over night, home sales decreased, interest rate only morgages started to go up

This is not entirely true. Like you said the real estate markets (marketS, there is no national real estate market, its very localized) have a natural cycle. We had a very long upcycle that was driven by low rates. That upcycle has shifted the other way. Rates are still really low, and now that the fed has continually dropped rates interest only ARM rates are right back where they were during the upcycle. Why hasn't the cycle turned back upwards? Because its a natural cycle and is not tied soley to interest rates. 18 months and it will start to move the other way again.

In my market...its not so bad. Values are holding, foreclosures are up but they are still a VERY small percentage of total homeownership. And we're one of the higher foreclosure rates (MD, DC, & VA are like 11th, 12th and 13th in the nation) and homeowners in foreclosure are still only maybe 1.5 homeowners out of 1,000?

The bigger issue are these criminal short term ARMs that were given to people who never should have gotten them, thats driving the foreclosure rate. People who bought last year and actually could afford their loans (the vast najority) are fine. They'll just wait...real estate is a long term investment.

Now I must say I am not pro Bush fan, and I do believe he could have done a better job in office, but to say he and his administration is to blame for the countries current economic problems is a bit unjust...I think if Bill Clinton were still in office we would be in the same boat economically... That's my take...

Had Bill Clinton been in office, or ANYONE other than George W. Bush because this was his war, it was his plan from before he took office, we would not have invaded Iraq and we would not have incurred that awesome expense. If that were the case, the natural cycles at work here would still be at work, but at least we would be better equipped to handle them.

[nc211]

The bigger issue are these criminal short term ARMs that were given to people who never should have gotten them, thats driving the foreclosure rate. People who bought last year and actually could afford their loans (the vast najority) are fine. They'll just wait...real estate is a long term investment.

I completely, totally, 110%, 5by5, agree! I think it's worth noting that the vast majority of these residential foreclosures going on, aren't infact actual occupied residences. But instead, are people's "flip" investments that hit the saturation point of supply. You'll know we're lining the park benches with homeless folks when your local bank's parking lot is full of repos. People will give up everything they can, before they give up their home, and that just hasn't happened yet. Even though all of this economic doom and gloom stuff is litering the press, negative percentages, yada yada yada, what you don't see a lot of times is the timing points of that negative number. Of course everything is going to look bad when placed against a backdrop of the past 24 to 36 months, it was the top of the mountain. But when comparing against figures against a more stable point in history, say 2004, it doesn't look that bad actually. There are pockets of course that are wrecked, Ft. Myers Florida being a good example. But overall, to date, when compared to times of more responsible banking regulations, we're not that bad.

SWO, I agree with your statement. I think Bush screwed the pooch on giving away our surplus, but water under the bridge. I think he'll screw up the recovery with this new stimulus package and home bailout stuff too. Small brush fires are needed sometimes for the forest to survive. Stall the small fires, and the entire forest can go up in smoke at a later date.

I think the ones to blame for today aren't in the oval office, but down at the fed and on capitol hill, with relaxed investment criteria, unclear manuals for the public to understand, and a blindeye approach to that stinking pile of crap in the corner humping Freddie Mac's leg. Put a few trillion in Bubba's pocket, yet you don't explain the responsiblity of it correctly before going off for vacation, well, expect to come home to one hell of a wrecked home.

RX, I understand your comment about the gas prices, and can see where you're coming from amigo. But I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree on that one. I do think gas prices are going to tank in either late 4Q-08, or 1Q-09, I really do. In times past after a bump in the road, prices spiked then fell. After the 92' recession, prices were quite high for the times, but then 18 months later, they were 95 cents a gallon. The oil crunch in the late 70's early 80's, then tanked by 83'. Just seems like a pattern to me. I think the arguement of "global" demand can be somewhat mitigated by the sheer size of this subprime mess globally. If everyone is taking losses, or about to, then we'll all be sitting home on Friday nights instead of cruisin' the strip, which could drop demand quite a bit. But, it's in China's hands, so we'll see... One good thing the analysts did do "depending how you look at it", is they spread the risk worldwide with thier hybrid structuring of securities. If this were 100% US based only, we might be some deep do-oo. The whole reason for securitization of real estate is to prevent liquidity crisis, to keep the funds moving. It was designed for commercial real estate only. But thanks to relaxed regulations, everything from residential rentals, to movie scripts, to NYC taxi medalions, have been pumped through there. Hell, EVEN weather forecasts! You want to point the blame at the real reason, just head on down to your nearest Morgan Stanley office and give them the middle finger.

I do think someone needs to explain to me where in the hell the Iraqi oil is going, that we're protecting with our troops. That just doesn't make sense to me 1 bit. I smell Cheney's rotting boogers on this one.

I gotta' get back to work. I have to explain to a developer in upstate NY why his office project that earns $2.1m a year of income, can't handle payments on his requested $37m loan. A couple of doctors turned investors, who apparently have never heard of debt-service-coverage ratios. As in... "It makes $1, but owes $2"...go figure. And clearly have no clue about interest rates.

[JIBBBY]

Swo3es - In regards to the war, did you forget about the twin towers in NY? Sadam not working with the United Nations and it's sanctions and inspections.. We needed to do something about the war against terrorism and it had to start somewhere...Iraq is where it started... I think we also need to do something about Iran... These fanitics get there hands on long range nukes, biological weapons they could and probably will use them... These fanitic Arab countries need to be dealt with before it too late.. I just don't think we can close our eyes to this anymore...

For many reasons I am in favor of this war... It just so happens we are not winning it over night, and that is what is bothering everyone... It's not like the good ole days where you can drop a hydrogen bomb and the war is over....Insurgents, isolated strong holds, suicide bombers, etc.. Not an easy war to win with todays political road blocks... How quickly we forget the reasons why?

Economy, it all comes down to consumer spending and what effects it.....

[jcrome04]

I agree the economy has slowed down, but I think that by telling everyone we're already in a recesion is crap. That alone WILL cause a bad recession! It will make everyone afraid to spend their money, and invest it or whatever.

The media just needs to quit being drama queens about it and exagerrating everything.

Markets always have a way of working themselves out. B)

Ps. As for the real estate market, people just should have been smarter than to get in over their heads. Adjustable rate mortgages are named just for what they do. Adjust! Them raising higher is a risk taken by getting one...

( I know I don't have as many experience points as you guys in these areas but these are just some personal opinions! :) )

[LEXIRX330]

Swo3es - In regards to the war, did you forget about the twin towers in NY? Sadam not working with the United Nations and it's sanctions and inspections.. We needed to do something about the war against terrorism and it had to start somewhere...Iraq is where it started... I think we also need to do something about Iran... These fanitics get there hands on long range nukes, biological weapons they could and probably will use them... These fanitic Arab countries need to be dealt with before it too late.. I just don't think we can close our eyes to this anymore...

For many reasons I am in favor of this war... It just so happens we are not winning it over night, and that is what is bothering everyone... It's not like the good ole days where you can drop a hydrogen bomb and the war is over....Insurgents, isolated strong holds, suicide bombers, etc.. Not an easy war to win with todays political road blocks... How quickly we forget the reasons why?

Economy, it all comes down to consumer spending and what effects it.....

Jibby! How about that...we actually agree about the war pretty much.

I have been disappointed in the way the war has been handled but Sadam violated so many UN treaties he needed to be out of there. I think Bush could have handled this much differently and much, much better. I am just disappointed in our government both sides...

I do think that Iraq's oil should be paying for the full cost of the war.

The real estate market may be going through a cycle but...we never have had a time when you could buy a home with no money down. It was insane. In the insurance industry we had mortgage companies calling to increase coverage's on homes to the value of the loan...which is not supposed to be done they are only supposed to be insured for replacement cost. I have seen appraisals on mobile homes lately that Most of these homes not only did people have no equity at all but actually took loans out for renovations, upgrades and even furniture. We would have never been in this mess if the borrower was required to put down 20%.

It is not just in real estate though...Toyota has come out with a 7 year loan. Wells Fargo finance furniture with no payments, no interest for 1 year...this is what is getting people upside down in life. Financing everything...

It's a shame I went into buy all new appliances for my home. About $8,000, now I was just going to pay for this...but when I bought them I actually got almost $1,000 off just to finance and put it on credit. Well no brainier for me financed it all...paid it off next month, got the appliances for $7,200. What kind of world is this...I want to pay CASH for something...buy it outright...and it will cost me more. (I do understand why they are doing this finance charges....etc) It is crazy

[nc211]

Boy oh boy, have we hijacked this thread or what?!?!?!?

I'm going to start a basic discussion thread now, open to all chatter....

[LEXIRX330]

Boy oh boy, have we hijacked this thread or what?!?!?!?

I'm going to start a basic discussion thread now, open to all chatter....

I still can't believe the Patriots lost! :D

[JIBBBY]

This thread has been officially highjacked big time.... So sorrrryyyy, but in reality this thread would have died out a week if these topics weren't brought up......

Lexir330 - I am glad you agree with me in regards to the war..Most people don't and just follow the liberal media, what a shame.......Don't get me wrong, No one likes or wants war, no one likes to see teen age boys get blown away, lose limbs, etc.. It's a tragedy but also a necesity for our long term survival.. These Arab fanatic religous people would see us all beheaded in a heart beat...When you have people and cults thinking along those lines something must be done... It's a no brainer and is pretty much black and white as far as I am concerned.....

These people that are apposed to the war just don't get it... If they were thrust in to that middle east war zone, they would be captured and beheaded with a rusty saw and would be wishing at that moment that the war had already happened and order was restored..... Again, look at the big picture people and not just the continued bad media and political hype on the war....

GO USA!!!!!! And please take care of our veterans when the war is over unlike the Vietnam vets!!!!

PS. I still can't believe the NY Giants beat the Cowboys, Packers, and Patriots... Unbelievable...

[dcfish]

The patriots will fade into the dark now, Damn cheaters, Bilichek is done for, Can't trust him

[SW03ES]

Swo3es - In regards to the war, did you forget about the twin towers in NY? Sadam not working with the United Nations and it's sanctions and inspections.. We needed to do something about the war against terrorism and it had to start somewhere...Iraq is where it started... I think we also need to do something about Iran... These fanitics get there hands on long range nukes, biological weapons they could and probably will use them... These fanitic Arab countries need to be dealt with before it too late.. I just don't think we can close our eyes to this anymore...

Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11, there has been absolutely no evidence that he did. Starting the war against terrorism in Iraq would be like starting a war against snow in Virginia. Sure...there's snow in Virginia...but a hell of a lot more snow plenty of other places.

Iran...Afghanistan, Pakistan, all of these places have more ties to terrorism than Iraq...and unlike Iraq they actually HAVE WMDs! Well, Iran and Pakistan.

Now that we're imbroiled in Iraq, we're too impotent to do anything about Iran.

Plenty of things we could have done about Saddam not working with the UN other than invade.

The war in Iraq had NOTHING to do with terrorism or WMDs, it was Bush simply legacy shopping. Well...he bought a legacy all right.

For many reasons I am in favor of this war... It just so happens we are not winning it over night, and that is what is bothering everyone... It's not like the good ole days where you can drop a hydrogen bomb and the war is over....Insurgents, isolated strong holds, suicide bombers, etc.. Not an easy war to win with todays political road blocks... How quickly we forget the reasons why?

If we were actually waging a war on terrorism I'd agree...but thats not what we did in Iraq.

I agree the economy has slowed down, but I think that by telling everyone we're already in a recesion is crap. That alone WILL cause a bad recession! It will make everyone afraid to spend their money, and invest it or whatever.

It is already in a recession in many parts of the country. Not telling everyone the truth would mean lying to them and pretending reality isn't really happening...

Ps. As for the real estate market, people just should have been smarter than to get in over their heads. Adjustable rate mortgages are named just for what they do. Adjust! Them raising higher is a risk taken by getting one...

Its not that simple. A lot of these people are unsophisticated, uneducated, and a lot of them don't even speak english. They did not understand the reality of what they were doing, and the banks just turned a blind eye to it and let it happen knowing full well they didn't get it because they were living in the moment.

Now they're paying the price, and in many ways its worse for the banks than it is for the homeowners.

The real estate market may be going through a cycle but...we never have had a time when you could buy a home with no money down. It was insane. In the insurance industry we had mortgage companies calling to increase coverage's on homes to the value of the loan...which is not supposed to be done they are only supposed to be insured for replacement cost. I have seen appraisals on mobile homes lately that Most of these homes not only did people have no equity at all but actually took loans out for renovations, upgrades and even furniture. We would have never been in this mess if the borrower was required to put down 20%.

100% financing is not the issue. Nothing wrong with 100% financing, PROVIDED THE BORROWERS CAN AFFORD THE PAYMENTS. This is KEY. You can't give a loan with a $3,000 monthly payment to someone who makes $5,000 a month gross. They can't afford the payments! If you gave that same $3,000 a month loan to someone who makes $12,000 a month...they're fine. Banks just let people say they make $12k a month and don't even check. THATS insane!

If borrowers had to wait until they had 20% to put down before the bought a home, many many Americans would never own a home and homeownership is a GREAT thing.

These people that are apposed to the war just don't get it...

70% of Americans don't get it?

Remember, just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they don't know what they're talking about.

[jcrome04]

I'm sorry to go off topic (like we haven't already) but I really can't take this anymore...

there is NO "H" in my name. It has nothing to do with the finish of chrome, it has to do with my name.

no jchrome, it's jcrome.

Thanks...now we can get back to the discussion at hand! :D

[JIBBBY]

Sorry Jerome04 my bad.... Will that work? (just kidding) :D

SW30S - To say there is no terrorism in Iraq is being nieve.. It's all how you define terrorism... Beheading inocent Americans is that not a form of terrorism?... Yes, there are many other countries that pose a much greater then Iraq with Sadam at the helm...Still I believe America and other countries need to send a message to our not so friendly Arab nations and terrorism abroad...Especially when Arab fanatics following Osama Bin Laden lead fly planes into our buildings killing thousands...You say 911 has nothing to do with this war, but it does my friend, and I believe it sends a strong message if anything.... We need a firm presence in the middle east anyway because Isreal just isn't enough..... This war in Iraq is sending a message to defiant Arab nations and terrorism in general, you mess with the USA and you will be at war and lose... Sadam was a defiant *BLEEP* whom didn't believe we would go to war with Iraq, he was gravely mistaken...To say it was Bush's war alone is again off, the United Nations weren't apposed to war if I remember correctly, the Brits also jumped on board... Apparently there is more to it then just Bush's agenda...Don't believe everything you read and hear in the liberal media SW3...... Diplomacy just didn't work...

Again, with oil and other interests in the middle east another democratic strong hold such as Iraq would be a blessing... There is alot that can come out of this war other then liberating the Iraqies which in it's self is a just cause..... I believe in the end if we maintain the course it will be a good thing for us and Iraq... We get a new President in office that bails our troops out Iraq then I believe we lose across the board...Our soldiers paid a price for nothing and that would be the worst thing we can do... We can win this one unlike Vietnam... Patience and persistence is needed...

[SW03ES]

I'm sorry to go off topic (like we haven't already) but I really can't take this anymore...

there is NO "H" in my name. It has nothing to do with the finish of chrome, it has to do with my name.

no jchrome, it's jcrome.

Thanks...now we can get back to the discussion at hand! :D

I apologize, I assumed it was j-chrome, I stand corrected ;)

SW30S - To say there is no terrorism in Iraq is being nieve.. It's all how you define terrorism... Beheading inocent Americans is that not a form of terrorism?...

Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said there was no terrorism in Iraq, I said there were plenty of other areas with stronger ties to terrorism than Iraq. Our principal enemy is Al Qaida, and Al Qaida did not have a significant base of operations in Iraq.

Yes beheading Americans is terrorism, but flying planes into our buildings and killing thousands is a bigger issue and THOSE terrorists were not in Iraq.

They are now. Well done.

Besides, when were Americans beheaded in Iraq BEFORE we invaded and AFTER the gulf war? They weren't. This was a country with no army. Their air force consisted of a few 40 year old planes armed with pea shooters. We were in Baghdad in a matter of weeks. They were no threat to us and we knew that because we gutted the guy after the gulf war.

Especially when Arab fanatics following Osama Bin Laden lead fly planes into our buildings killing thousands

You do know Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein weren't friends right? He's happier with Saddam gone.

And again, the whole "Iraq 9/11" thing was propaganda the warmongers gave up on in 2004 because its not true.

To say it was Bush's war alone is again off, the United Nations weren't apposed to war if I remember correctly, the Brits also jumped on board... Apparently there is more to it then just Bush's agenda...Don't believe everything you read and hear in the liberal media SW3...... Diplomacy just didn't work...

Stop accusing me and others of being mindless media drones because we disagree with you. Debate the issue with me on equal footing or you're not even worth my time. I am an extremely intelligent, well read, and well versed individual and I am not beholden to nor dependant on any media outlet for my opinions. I am debating this with you without making comments as to where you're getting your info, show me the same courtesy.

You say diplomacy didn't work. Where was the urgency? Where was this hotbutton hair trigger about to go off. We were sold a war on a stack of false intelligence, the UN and the Brits were sold on the same stack of false intelligence.

Again, you can't trust a bunch of liars, and the entire world has learned not to trust this guy and his cronies and rightly so. He's humiliated this country, himself, and all of us. Remember this guy ran on a humble foreign policy. "No more nationbuilding, no more policing the world". Lies, lies, lies. I voted for the a-hole twice, don't I feel like a moron.

Again, with oil and other interests in the middle east another democratic strong hold such as Iraq would be a blessing... There is alot that can come out of this war other then liberating the Iraqies which in it's self is a just cause..... I believe in the end if we maintain the course it will be a good thing for us and Iraq... We get a new President in office that bails our troops out Iraq then I believe we lose across the board...Our soldiers paid a price for nothing and that would be the worst thing we can do... We can win this one unlike Vietnam... Patience and persistence is needed...

This is what people fail to understand and is a flaw in America's foreign policy. You cannot force American democracy on people. It has shown throughout history to be a failure. America came about through the efforts of a people who longed for freedom for generations, lived under the rule of a nonpresent entity. These people niether long for nor want democracy.

Look at russia. This guy Putin is in the process of dialing the clock back on all of the progress they've made since the fall of the Soviet Union. The russians think he's a freaking God. These people were born and bread for an authoritarian state, they can't function in a democracy and don't really even want to try.

Thats not to say we shouldn't try and promote democracy. There's no question WE are more safe being surrounded by other democracies, but you can't invade a country and expect them to have a democracy in 5 years. It just doesn't work that way.

And its going to be a *BLEEP* show over there probably for the rest of our lives and the majority of our childrens lives. And for what? A democracy for a nation with no capability of harming us full of people who didn't want us there in the first place?

Sure Saddam was a bad guy, but there are PLENTY of dictators all over the world MUCH MUCH MUCH worse and who actually have the capability to hurt us. Why don't we attack them? Why Iraq? Terrorisms not the reason...the terrorists we are chasing weren't in Iraq. No WMDs, and the Bush administration knew that. Why?

Now not only is this thing killing us financially but we've got to chap our lips on Kim Jong Il and Ahmadinejad's asses because they know we are too flaacid militarily to do anything to them and lack the leadership standing in the world to build any coalitions because of Iraq!

Its pathetic.

[RX in NC]

JIBBBY,

You're woefully inconsistent and don't seem to be able to grasp the fact that bin Laden and Hussein were never in cahoots with each other. 9/11 and Iraq were two separate issues that Bush, in all his incompetence, attempted to comingle and sell to Joe and Sally Housecoat in order to justify his own misguided agenda....

I see your Los Angeles tagline and have to wonder if perhaps you're smokin' something over there on the Left Coast....

So which one are you really - Cheech or Chong ??

[nc211]

I have always believed Iran was the target from day one, and the military planners saw the door open to put troops along thier border at 10:00am, September 11, 2001. Iran has consistantly been a thorn in our side for decades, but with no way to get to them directly due to our inability to "justify" invasion of Afghanastan and Iraq to do so. When Osama and his girly chicken-sh*t possee hit us, they effectively put the blueprints for Iran in play. If we wanted Osama dead, he'd be dead. But if we had indeed killed him off in Tora Bora, we could not have "pimped" him out to the rest of the world for the invasion of Iraq. I honestly beleive Osama has been kept alive, and used as, the poster boy for the basis of not taking down Sadam, but for the ability of the United States "and the rest of the world" to establish direct access points into Iran, if need be. Something we have never had, unless you were to come up from the Gulf, or down from Turkey. But, as you all know, when you push a jelly sandwich together, the jelly runs out the sides. Which is something that we couldn't handle in a war situation with Iran. Tell me one nation over the past 20 years that has needled the free world with war chatter, hijackings, hostages? Tell me one nation that has constantly rattled their sword for war? Iran use to have a buffer zone with Afghanistan and Iraq, and in the event of a war with the west, could ally up with Iraq. But now, that has all been eliminated, and Iran is now a lonely, little, nation all by itself, surrounded by world military along all borders, with riffles and missles facing directly across the border, and the worlds most bad !Removed! airforce circling the borders on a 24 hour cycle, just waiting for the orders to hit 'em. Iran has essentially been neutralized, with nothing left but this nuclear chatter. Do you really think we'll let them have the bomb? But more importantly, do you really think it will be the USA that stops them? I don't. I think it'll be Europe that will use these new entry points to wipe out Iran, if they push too hard. Iran can't !Removed! anymore without it being recorded, video taped, and broadcasted around the world in real time. No more secrecy to Iran. Which, in my honest opinion, has been the goal of this entire campaign, from 9/12/01 to current day. And I for one, am quite pleased with it. Sadam was in the way, burned one too many bridges, and was doomed. He knew we wanted Iraq for Iran, and knew the tab for BS'n the world for years upon years, had just come due, pay in full. He knew he was toast. WE even gave him the option to save his life if he would just leave the country and go into exhile before the invasion, but he refused. He knew he was a dead man, one way or the other.

Granted, Iraq and Al queda were not connected, we know that now. Sadam did not like Osama, feared his pressence as a force of unstability, and Sadam knew Osama would and could wake up the sleeping giant, which he knew could easily destroy him. In my opinion, invading Iraq served a two fold purpose. One, as I described above. Two, it provided us a battle field to fight Al Queda. No country has ever been able to successfully invade and hold Afghanistan due to the severe terrain. And with years of preporation by the Taliban and Al Queda to establish thier hold points in those mountains, and their constant call for a war with the west, we basically set up shop next door, in the wide open desert, and said "alright you pu**ies, here we are, let's get it on!" Iraq gave us a more suitable playing field, actually, gave us the advantage "like we needed it anyway?" Iraq is the warzone of the next decade. Anyone who wants to fight with us, air out their grievences with us, can buy a ticket and come on down to the price-is-right battle ground. We're there, ready to rumble, and ain't going anywhere.

If there is one flaw with the war, in my opinion, is that Rumsfield was too stupid and arrogant to listen to the commanders from day one, and ignored the call for more troops.

At the end of the day, the west cannot defeat radical islamic belief. It's got to be defeated by the peaceful sector of the islamic culture. For us to defeat these guys, would require the elimination of the "politically correct" war plan, and simply load up the 52's, wing tipped to wing tipped, and bomb the entire damn place with no mercy. That, I hope won't happen. The other way is starting to show signs of success, with numerous Iraqi civilians defecting from the insurgency and starting to fight against the insurgency, realizing if they don't, their country will forever be nothing more than a war zone between to fighters, neither of which are from Iraq heritage.

At the end of the day, in my honest opinion, what will be of the middle east will be like Vietnam today. Peace will exist, tourists will replace terrorists, and little pink umbrellas will be served in your drink at the Four Seasons along the Persian Gulf of Iraq. And there will forever be a US military base or two around, just in case, and to serve as a reminder, and the locals will embrace the presence of that stability.

[dcfish]

Do we remember the movie "Wag the Dog" ? Nuff said.............

[LEXIRX330]

I have always believed Iran was the target from day one, and the military planners saw the door open to put troops along thier border at 10:00am, September 11, 2001. Iran has consistantly been a thorn in our side for decades, but with no way to get to them directly due to our inability to "justify" invasion of Afghanastan and Iraq to do so. When Osama and his girly chicken-sh*t possee hit us, they effectively put the blueprints for Iran in play. If we wanted Osama dead, he'd be dead. But if we had indeed killed him off in Tora Bora, we could not have "pimped" him out to the rest of the world for the invasion of Iraq. I honestly beleive Osama has been kept alive, and used as, the poster boy for the basis of not taking down Sadam, but for the ability of the United States "and the rest of the world" to establish direct access points into Iran, if need be. Something we have never had, unless you were to come up from the Gulf, or down from Turkey. But, as you all know, when you push a jelly sandwich together, the jelly runs out the sides. Which is something that we couldn't handle in a war situation with Iran. Tell me one nation over the past 20 years that has needled the free world with war chatter, hijackings, hostages? Tell me one nation that has constantly rattled their sword for war? Iran use to have a buffer zone with Afghanistan and Iraq, and in the event of a war with the west, could ally up with Iraq. But now, that has all been eliminated, and Iran is now a lonely, little, nation all by itself, surrounded by world military along all borders, with riffles and missles facing directly across the border, and the worlds most bad !Removed! airforce circling the borders on a 24 hour cycle, just waiting for the orders to hit 'em. Iran has essentially been neutralized, with nothing left but this nuclear chatter. Do you really think we'll let them have the bomb? But more importantly, do you really think it will be the USA that stops them? I don't. I think it'll be Europe that will use these new entry points to wipe out Iran, if they push too hard. Iran can't !Removed! anymore without it being recorded, video taped, and broadcasted around the world in real time. No more secrecy to Iran. Which, in my honest opinion, has been the goal of this entire campaign, from 9/12/01 to current day. And I for one, am quite pleased with it. Sadam was in the way, burned one too many bridges, and was doomed. He knew we wanted Iraq for Iran, and knew the tab for BS'n the world for years upon years, had just come due, pay in full. He knew he was toast. WE even gave him the option to save his life if he would just leave the country and go into exhile before the invasion, but he refused. He knew he was a dead man, one way or the other.

Granted, Iraq and Al queda were not connected, we know that now. Sadam did not like Osama, feared his pressence as a force of unstability, and Sadam knew Osama would and could wake up the sleeping giant, which he knew could easily destroy him. In my opinion, invading Iraq served a two fold purpose. One, as I described above. Two, it provided us a battle field to fight Al Queda. No country has ever been able to successfully invade and hold Afghanistan due to the severe terrain. And with years of preporation by the Taliban and Al Queda to establish thier hold points in those mountains, and their constant call for a war with the west, we basically set up shop next door, in the wide open desert, and said "alright you pu**ies, here we are, let's get it on!" Iraq gave us a more suitable playing field, actually, gave us the advantage "like we needed it anyway?" Iraq is the warzone of the next decade. Anyone who wants to fight with us, air out their grievences with us, can buy a ticket and come on down to the price-is-right battle ground. We're there, ready to rumble, and ain't going anywhere.

If there is one flaw with the war, in my opinion, is that Rumsfield was too stupid and arrogant to listen to the commanders from day one, and ignored the call for more troops.

At the end of the day, the west cannot defeat radical islamic belief. It's got to be defeated by the peaceful sector of the islamic culture. For us to defeat these guys, would require the elimination of the "politically correct" war plan, and simply load up the 52's, wing tipped to wing tipped, and bomb the entire damn place with no mercy. That, I hope won't happen. The other way is starting to show signs of success, with numerous Iraqi civilians defecting from the insurgency and starting to fight against the insurgency, realizing if they don't, their country will forever be nothing more than a war zone between to fighters, neither of which are from Iraq heritage.

At the end of the day, in my honest opinion, what will be of the middle east will be like Vietnam today. Peace will exist, tourists will replace terrorists, and little pink umbrellas will be served in your drink at the Four Seasons along the Persian Gulf of Iraq. And there will forever be a US military base or two around, just in case, and to serve as a reminder, and the locals will embrace the presence of that stability.

Good post NC!

Man I am to busy at work…I want to keep posting on this…errr

SW...

If the mortgage companies had required the 20% down then you are quite right many people would have not been able to own a home. Guess what they would be renters...just like they were before and we would not be in this mess now. I am sure that it has helped some very good people, but at what cost. You are right giving loans to people that can not afford the payment is just plain stupid…and that too has created this housing mess.

I was watching CNBC...and they had this guy talking about the financial crisis...he said simply other than speculators people that bought homes that could not afford them put in no money of their own...100% financed maybe even 120% financed...when their home is foreclosed on what have they lost? Nothing...they did not own the home anymore then, then they will once it is foreclosed on. This is why we are in this mess.

If you are going to lose something...your home...something you have equity in...you will do anything to try to save it. If you do not own the home then what is there to loose.

That is why 100% financing is a problem...sure for some people it is the only way they would ever be able to buy a home...but the question is should they own a home?

[JIBBBY]

JIBBBY,

You're woefully inconsistent and don't seem to be able to grasp the fact that bin Laden and Hussein were never in cahoots with each other. 9/11 and Iraq were two separate issues that Bush, in all his incompetence, attempted to comingle and sell to Joe and Sally Housecoat in order to justify his own misguided agenda....

I see your Los Angeles tagline and have to wonder if perhaps you're smokin' something over there on the Left Coast....

So which one are you really - Cheech or Chong ??

I never said Osama and Hussein were buddies... Woefully inconsistent you say? Since when does smoking marijuana make you woefully inconsistent...I know it makes you hungry, lazy, and maybe a bit stupid while you are baked...Inconsistent though I think not.... Get your drugs and the effects of those drugs right when posting please....

To all the Bush and Iraq war haters... Yeah, maybe we should have continued just to talk to Sadam and let him continue make a joke out of us and the United Nations...Maybe we should have turned our backs to the fact that Saddam was a straight out murderer whom did his people an complete injustice... That makes alot of sense doesn't it...Just to say there are other countries and leaders that are far worse then Sadam and Iraq is probably true, but evil and injustices still should be dealt with at every level and not just ignored..... Sadam was a murderer, and the educated people in Iraq would like to see democracy prevail....

Sw303-

Curious? When the war just started were you %100 apposed to it then like you are now? ...or did you simple come around to the fact that it was a mistake over time based on the information the media has fed you? The media has way of changing our minds over time with constant negative feedback.. You can be the smartest person in the world and still get effected by this... If you google the reasons why we went to war against Iraq, you will find there were many reasons why outside of this forum chat on this thread..There were many supporters at the start of the war, Americans in whole actually thought that it was the right thing to do... Years later the war is still not over, troops are still dying, and people jump off the band wagon saying it's one big mistake, jump sides, and bash the whole campaign which starts with Bush..... What a joke if that is the case...

Do you like genocide in other countries? Maybe we should always just turn our backs to that and everything else that is evil in the world... There really is no place for war and I think I will go hug a tree and go save a whale now....I am sure that will work everytime....Barf.....

[SW03ES]

If the mortgage companies had required the 20% down then you are quite right many people would have not been able to own a home. Guess what they would be renters...just like they were before and we would not be in this mess now. I am sure that it has helped some very good people, but at what cost. You are right giving loans to people that can not afford the payment is just plain stupid…and that too has created this housing mess.

What you're missing is the issue being verification of credentials at loan application, not the percentage of equity in the home itself. Why punish excellent borrowers with only 5, 10, or 15% down because the banks can't be bothered or don't want to check income or look at a bank statement?

Curious? When the war just started were you %100 apposed to it then like you are now? ...or did you simple come around to the fact that it was a mistake over time based on the information the media has fed you?

I was always dubious, but the "evidence" of WMDs made me feel like there was at least some basis.

There were many supporters at the start of the war, Americans in whole actually thought that it was the right thing to do...

Right...because the reasoning behind it was a book of lies. Now that the lies are exposed as lies...why are you surprised that support has eroded?

Do you like genocide in other countries? Maybe we should always just turn our backs to that and everything else that is evil in the world...

Absolutely not. However, we are incapable of fixing all of the problems in the world. We can be a world leader and influence other countries diplomatically to do the things that are right for their people, but we have enough problems of our own. We can't use our military to liberate other peoples and occupy other countries after their dictators are gone. We need that military to protect OUR country!

Again though, if we were attacking Iraq because Saddam was a dictator...there were plenty of worse dictators in the world participating in any number of atrocities Saddam wasn't participating in, and other dictators that posed a threat to us unlike Saddam...why didn't we or haven't we done anything about them?

[mburnickas]

To all the Bush and Iraq war haters... Yeah, maybe we should have continued just to talk to Sadam and let him continue make a joke out of us and the United Nations...Maybe we should have turned our backs to the fact that Saddam was a straight out murderer whom did his people an complete injustice... That makes alot of sense doesn't it...Just to say there are other countries and leaders that are far worse then Sadam and Iraq is probably true, but evil and injustices still should be dealt with at every level and not just ignored..... Sadam was a murderer, and the educated people in Iraq would like to see democracy prevail....

Sadam is dead dude! LOL..

The good old USA could not find there #1 guy so lets get Sadam too look good. So sad. I dislike this war and think it is a complete scam. I work for a company that makes MRAP's and the crappy quality, underpowered trucks and the profit they make is sad. A $550,000 truck (the tax payers money) is over HALF profit!!!!!They push "for the solders" but it is flat out lies. I love the USA put we are too global now and it will hurt us in the long run.

[JIBBBY]

We can't use our military to liberate other peoples and occupy other countries after their dictators are gone. We need that military to protect OUR country!

This is what makes our country so great, is the fact that we will defend and come to the rescue of the needy at times... We went to war against Iraq not only to liberate it's people but for many reasons as I previously mentioned... We saw Iraq as a potential future threat to us and our interests in the Middle East... Since we are the number #1 world power we need to set the precedence or else who will?... However, I do agree with you when saying the USA cannot use it's military to fix genocide or all problems in every country...However, when that evil poses a future threat to the USA then the military does need to step up and show... Much like the so thought situation in Iraq... We thought Iraq was a bigger threat then maybe they really were, but still a threat never the less... Even though nukes were never found in Iraq trying to liberate it's people and outsting Saddam is still a just cause.... We the people should support our war efforts regardless of what we "may think, but not know for certain in regards to the reasons why". Supporting our efforts while at war may just help with the moral of our soldiers and leaders and aid in our efforts to win it.... Those are the guys that deserve our best, the troops in Iraq regardless of our leaders decisions...

[nc211]

In response to the WMD theory. I think I might of posted this a few years ago, but can't remember. Anywho, I have an old high school buddy who went the army career route back in the late 90's, made it up to Captain. A few years ago after returning from Iraq and hanging up his boots for good, he came up for a visit to Raleigh from Ft. Bragg in Fayetteville. I bought him his first "civilian" meal, and his first "civilian" Budweiser. He was part of a recon team that went into northern Iraq through Turkey about 3 weeks prior to the kick off, to simply watch and some other stuff he wouldn't tell me about with the kurds "preperation stuff I believe". Anyway, he told me point blank, stone cold sober, that they literally watched convoys of military trucks mixed with civilian trucks rolling out of Iraq into Syria between midnight and 4 am, for days upon days. They couldn't do anything but watch, report, and photograph with night gear. He told me, that he suspects and heard through the grapevine that much of that stuff was indeed weapons in nature, chemical stuff, lab gear, equipment gear for lab gear, and what he though was the early stages of early nuke making gear, being smuggled out and back to their rightful owners.. I was stunned, but I've known him since we were teenagers, and believed him. When I asked who was the "rightful owner", he did not confirm, but instead asked me to think about what nations at that time were adament that we not invade, and tried to stall it within the UN security council. He said, and I quote, "some of those passengers in those trucks were the whitest Iraqies I've ever seen". Later on, as we all learned, that oil for food stuff was so diluted with fruad, and given the economic hardships of Russia and the blackmarket for weapons after the fall of the USSR....well...kind of made sense to me. I'm not totally convinced there weren't some WMD in there. I think we just agreed to cover it up so as to not embarrass others that clearly got caugt with their hands in the cookie jar. I think they were either intercepted later down the road, or we knew about it right before kick off and told them to "get your stuff now, we won't say anything as long as you don't mess with us while we're there".

[LEXIRX330]

If the mortgage companies had required the 20% down then you are quite right many people would have not been able to own a home. Guess what they would be renters...just like they were before and we would not be in this mess now. I am sure that it has helped some very good people, but at what cost. You are right giving loans to people that can not afford the payment is just plain stupid…and that too has created this housing mess.

What you're missing is the issue being verification of credentials at loan application, not the percentage of equity in the home itself. Why punish excellent borrowers with only 5, 10, or 15% down because the banks can't be bothered or don't want to check income or look at a bank statement?

SW-

Should have said it more clear. "Giving loans to people that can't afford them..." I did mean check income, bank statements. Sure if someone has $500,000 in the bank, and they buy a home and they wanted to finance it all go for it they have the "equity" or "assets" to prove they can pay for it. I do agree...with you. But giving people loans at 120% of the value of the home...has proven not to be a wise move for many.

As far as Sadam, he had weapons...he had used them. Just because they have not been found means that who was supplying him Syria, Russia...wanted them out. Because if the weapons had been found and it was found out that Syria and Russia had supplied them that would make them in violation of UN Treaties...too. What do you think the chemical trucks, and chemical suits that we had pics of were used for? How about the massive graves that have been unearthed...

I totally agree that we should of handled the build up to the war in a better way. George Bush thought he could go in there drop bombs send a few troops in and then we could just pack up and let the Iraq's take over. Wrong...these people have been fighting for years and years...they did not fight for their own peace. Now that Sadam is not there cutting off anyone's head and then killing their family who opposes him it is just a cluster F!?@#. Should we have left him in power...NO. But we should have had more support before going in to this war.

NC- I had a 2 buddies that got out of the service both telling me similar stories. One actually had a pretty bad photo of a line of trucks driving out of Iraq....before the war started.

A couple of question that I have....Why on earth if Sadam did not have WMD's would he have not just let the UN inspectors do their job??? Why did we not put more pressure on the UN to do something, we are the major contributor to the UN.