Would You Buy An Rx400h Again?

[jkatsoudas]

oil changes are peanuts. How can you expect to only pay $2,000 for repairs for 100,000 miles?? You realize there are loads of things NOT covered under warranties, like labor, misc parts, tires, normal wear and tear that german cars seem to exhibit much more than lexus'. By the way, we have electric steering, NO P/S, regenerative brakes that last 100k + miles. Brakes on my ML500 cost me almost $2k for all rotors/pads/install and that was at a local shop not the dealer! Things like a broken window motor ($500) and a broken sunroof motor ($500) all add up quickly. I would love to compare the ownership costs from a RX400h to a ML500 over the 7 year lifespan. I'll put down money that the Lexus is far less costly to own than a ML500, not to mention almost double the gas mileage. My ML500 got 13-14 mpg the way I drove, my lexus gets 21-22 and its not even broken in yet

Minor, you say? Let's see... at $200 every 5K miles, that works out to $4,000 in oil changes over 100K miles (not counting the cost of the synthetic oil itself if I want to upgrade over what Lexus installs). $200 every 13K miles for the MBZ works out to $1,600 over that same timeframe, and Mobil1 is included. That's a $2,400 difference. More than enough to cover that brake service.

All the other stuff you mention- window motors, sunroofs, etc are ALL covered (including labor, loaner car, towing if needed) under the bumper to bumper extended warranty. Even the nav system and all electronics. So yes, I'm pretty confident that any needed repairs won't cost me anything out of pocket. Consumables, on the other hand, cost money but that's par for the course with either car. Go read the threads about the crappy Goodyear tires on the RX and then tell the folks that had to replace their tires after 13K miles that their RX is cheaper to maintain. As far as the comparison between the ML500's gas mileage vs the RX... not sure what that has to do with anything. Maybe if you compare it to the LX470 that might be more appropriate.

[NeoN]

oil changes are peanuts. How can you expect to only pay $2,000 for repairs for 100,000 miles?? You realize there are loads of things NOT covered under warranties, like labor, misc parts, tires, normal wear and tear that german cars seem to exhibit much more than lexus'. By the way, we have electric steering, NO P/S, regenerative brakes that last 100k + miles. Brakes on my ML500 cost me almost $2k for all rotors/pads/install and that was at a local shop not the dealer! Things like a broken window motor ($500) and a broken sunroof motor ($500) all add up quickly. I would love to compare the ownership costs from a RX400h to a ML500 over the 7 year lifespan. I'll put down money that the Lexus is far less costly to own than a ML500, not to mention almost double the gas mileage. My ML500 got 13-14 mpg the way I drove, my lexus gets 21-22 and its not even broken in yet

Minor, you say? Let's see... at $200 every 5K miles, that works out to $4,000 in oil changes over 100K miles (not counting the cost of the synthetic oil itself if I want to upgrade over what Lexus installs). $200 every 13K miles for the MBZ works out to $1,600 over that same timeframe, and Mobil1 is included. That's a $2,400 difference. More than enough to cover that brake service.

All the other stuff you mention- window motors, sunroofs, etc are ALL covered (including labor, loaner car, towing if needed) under the bumper to bumper extended warranty. Even the nav system and all electronics. So yes, I'm pretty confident that any needed repairs won't cost me anything out of pocket. Consumables, on the other hand, cost money but that's par for the course with either car. Go read the threads about the crappy Goodyear tires on the RX and then tell the folks that had to replace their tires after 13K miles that their RX is cheaper to maintain. As far as the comparison between the ML500's gas mileage vs the RX... not sure what that has to do with anything. Maybe if you compare it to the LX470 that might be more appropriate.

$200 for an oil change? are you nuts? I get three free oil changes from the dealer then change the oil myself after the warranty is up (50k miles) an oil change on my own is $35 at most lol.

[jrober]

"... at $200 every 5K miles"

I pay $30 max for oil changes at the local Toyota dealer and about $15 if I do it myself. You don't have to pay the high Lexus service fees.

[jkatsoudas]

"... at $200 every 5K miles"

I pay $30 max for oil changes at the local Toyota dealer and about $15 if I do it myself. You don't have to pay the high Lexus service fees.

Yeah, but then you're not getting that outstandind Lexus dealership service that everyone seems to prize. :whistles: I didn't make this number up- Lexus of Stevens Creek wants $199 for a routine 5K service visit.

By the same token, you wouldn't need to pay $2K to have brakes serviced as in a prior poster's example. That's just as crazy as a $200 oil change.

[mindmachine]

"... at $200 every 5K miles"

I pay $30 max for oil changes at the local Toyota dealer and about $15 if I do it myself. You don't have to pay the high Lexus service fees.

Yeah, but then you're not getting that outstandind Lexus dealership service that everyone seems to prize. :whistles: I didn't make this number up- Lexus of Stevens Creek wants $199 for a routine 5K service visit.

By the same token, you wouldn't need to pay $2K to have brakes serviced as in a prior poster's example. That's just as crazy as a $200 oil change.

Hi,

I hate to make you guys cry, my dealer gives free service for the first 9 service intervals (includes 1000 mile) / 8 oil and filter changes thru the first 40,000 miles including all recommended services including tire rotations, differential oil and all other inspections outlined in the manual. TOTALLY FREE. I did not realize how valuable it was going to be. Also my dealer has held the elite service seal for quite a few years running now too, and I have to say their service has always been outstanding.

[RX400h]

You found an extra-great dealership, mind machine.

Regarding supposed 13,000 intervals between oil changes. I spoke to the manager of a German vehicle-only repair facility. He told me that the problem with Mercedes is that they (and BMW) cover oil changes at that mileage as part of a "One requirement fits all" policy. He went on to say that many owners should be changing their oil more frequently due to their driving habits. Hence, he's seen engines that failed very prematurely because of lack of maintenance. Yes, if you drive under ideal conditions, you may be able to get away with 13,000 miles between oil changes, but unless you know your oil is still okay, blindly following MB or BMW's free change warranty is not a good idea.

[NeoN]

You found an extra-great dealership, mind machine.

Regarding supposed 13,000 intervals between oil changes. I spoke to the manager of a German vehicle-only repair facility. He told me that the problem with Mercedes is that they (and BMW) cover oil changes at that mileage as part of a "One requirement fits all" policy. He went on to say that many owners should be changing their oil more frequently due to their driving habits. Hence, he's seen engines that failed very prematurely because of lack of maintenance. Yes, if you drive under ideal conditions, you may be able to get away with 13,000 miles between oil changes, but unless you know your oil is still okay, blindly following MB or BMW's free change warranty is not a good idea.

exactly, I use mobil 1 fully synthetic 10-W30 and the highest quality oil filters on my supra, and I change the oil every 2000 miles!!! 13k? thats ridiclious, unless your looking to ruin your engine. Then again, your engine doesn't make over 150 hp/liter

[Jim Clark]

You found an extra-great dealership, mind machine.

Regarding supposed 13,000 intervals between oil changes. I spoke to the manager of a German vehicle-only repair facility. He told me that the problem with Mercedes is that they (and BMW) cover oil changes at that mileage as part of a "One requirement fits all" policy. He went on to say that many owners should be changing their oil more frequently due to their driving habits. Hence, he's seen engines that failed very prematurely because of lack of maintenance. Yes, if you drive under ideal conditions, you may be able to get away with 13,000 miles between oil changes, but unless you know your oil is still okay, blindly following MB or BMW's free change warranty is not a good idea.

exactly, I use mobil 1 fully synthetic 10-W30 and the highest quality oil filters on my supra, and I change the oil every 2000 miles!!! 13k? thats ridiclious, unless your looking to ruin your engine. Then again, your engine doesn't make over 150 hp/liter

If you're changing the oil with full synthetic every 2k miles, you're just wasting money. You can easily go 6-10k with Mobil 1. I use Amsoil in my Bimmer and go 10k. An Amsoil dealer told me I was wasting money doing it every 10k.

[NY_RX400h_Savanah]

Well $200 is a cost of service for Lexus in NY and probably other places and honestly why buy 50k+ car and service it yourself?? So that's a fact-compared to $0 you pay for BMW it doesn't look good for Lexus but come on-it's not a deciding factor whether you'd buy a car again or not. Just to be clear on Oil changes- first of all Lexus designed the engine, chose oil for it and I see no point of arguing-there is engineering behind it and we have no right to under mind years of education and experience of those people. Same goes for BMW or MB-it's their car and that's how it was designed-they must be doing something right if in F1 they rule-not a Toyota nor Honda (most powerful engine belongs to BMW). Besides every car I owed in the past including Alfa Romeo ( I moved to US 8 years ago) used synthetic oil and intervals were every 20000 km which is about 13k miles. Mobile1 oil that is sold in Europe recommends change every 25000 km- so I really don't see anything wrong with it. Besides BMW has separate processor analyzing oil and if your car needs an oil change sooner it will indicate it (with my driving instead of 15k almost always it was 11-12k). Just keep in mind that our country is run by corporate environment-how are they going to make money if we change oil every 13-15k miles???

Now getting back to real question-would you buy it again-I think I still would- like every car out there-it has annoying compromises but so far RX is the best LUXURY hybrid SUV out there and if we can do something to help the enviroment we should do so.

[NeoN]

You found an extra-great dealership, mind machine.

Regarding supposed 13,000 intervals between oil changes. I spoke to the manager of a German vehicle-only repair facility. He told me that the problem with Mercedes is that they (and BMW) cover oil changes at that mileage as part of a "One requirement fits all" policy. He went on to say that many owners should be changing their oil more frequently due to their driving habits. Hence, he's seen engines that failed very prematurely because of lack of maintenance. Yes, if you drive under ideal conditions, you may be able to get away with 13,000 miles between oil changes, but unless you know your oil is still okay, blindly following MB or BMW's free change warranty is not a good idea.

exactly, I use mobil 1 fully synthetic 10-W30 and the highest quality oil filters on my supra, and I change the oil every 2000 miles!!! 13k? thats ridiclious, unless your looking to ruin your engine. Then again, your engine doesn't make over 150 hp/liter

If you're changing the oil with full synthetic every 2k miles, you're just wasting money. You can easily go 6-10k with Mobil 1. I use Amsoil in my Bimmer and go 10k. An Amsoil dealer told me I was wasting money doing it every 10k.

you obviously have no idea how a turbocharged car works. My turbo's only protection against seizure is oil, so im going to change my oil as often as possible. besides I run insane amount of boost that doesn't really help either,.

[Jim Clark]

You found an extra-great dealership, mind machine.

Regarding supposed 13,000 intervals between oil changes. I spoke to the manager of a German vehicle-only repair facility. He told me that the problem with Mercedes is that they (and BMW) cover oil changes at that mileage as part of a "One requirement fits all" policy. He went on to say that many owners should be changing their oil more frequently due to their driving habits. Hence, he's seen engines that failed very prematurely because of lack of maintenance. Yes, if you drive under ideal conditions, you may be able to get away with 13,000 miles between oil changes, but unless you know your oil is still okay, blindly following MB or BMW's free change warranty is not a good idea.

exactly, I use mobil 1 fully synthetic 10-W30 and the highest quality oil filters on my supra, and I change the oil every 2000 miles!!! 13k? thats ridiclious, unless your looking to ruin your engine. Then again, your engine doesn't make over 150 hp/liter

If you're changing the oil with full synthetic every 2k miles, you're just wasting money. You can easily go 6-10k with Mobil 1. I use Amsoil in my Bimmer and go 10k. An Amsoil dealer told me I was wasting money doing it every 10k.

you obviously have no idea how a turbocharged car works. My turbo's only protection against seizure is oil, so im going to change my oil as often as possible. besides I run insane amount of boost that doesn't really help either,.

I've owned a turbocharged car and understand quite well how they work. The most important thing for your turbos is to make sure the oil supply and return lines are sufficient to put as much oil as possible through the turbos. More oil equals lower temps coming out of the turbos. Audis had problems with burning up turbos because the return line was too small and could become clogged because the oil coming out of the turbos was too hot. If your turbocharged system is adequately designed, you can easily go 6k with a good full synthetic.

[jditom]

Honestly, you couldn't pay me enough to buy a Volkswagen Toureg. It is probably the least reliable SUV in the US. I read an interesting "blurb" in Car & Driver that described their experience driving a Honda Civic Diesel (outside of the US). It wasn't even close to achieving the gas mileage that a Prius gets - so much for a "better" idea! :chairshot:

Seriously, there wasn't anything better when we bought our RX in 2005 and there STILL isn't anything better, all things considered. Ours is a keeper!

I think there will be a lot of diesel in our future.

Based on what I saw in Europe. Read below. Everyone will be doing it.

Diesel

[LexRexBlue]

I really have no gripes or complaints. For the size car that it is, I think it drives well. However, this is my second RX and I missed driving a car. We bought the IS just to have a car to drive. It's zippier and more nimble. The RX is a whole lot quieter, smoother, etc. Both have convienences, the back-up camera on the IS is much brighter and the navigation clearer. But, it's a newer model.

[SOMEONE ELSE'S GOT MY NAME]

The BMW is rated at 16 mpg city / 24 mpg hwy and the Mercedes, 16/Highway 21 MPG, while the heavier RX400h is rated at 27 mpg city and 24 mpg highway, handily beating both German cars by a long shot when it comes to fuel consumption.

Maybe in San Diego you can get that sort of mileage year-round, but anywhere that it actually gets cold you'll see the RX fuel economy plummet in the winter when it has to run the ICE to generate heat. Even up here, just a few hunded miles north of you, I see a significant drop in fuel economy in the winter. If you factor year-round average fuel economy for an RX in "average" weather conditions, the RX doesn't handily beat either one, in fact my wife's E350 gets better fuel economy than my RX right now.

Hugh? Average winter in the Flathead Valley is in the low 30's ... with maybe 2 to 10 sub zeros every other year. You can STILL get in the 30's mpg simply by driving purposfully, combining short trips, blocking your grill and adding a block heater. Sure, if you don't do that, take tons of short trips, then you'll sufffer the mpg consequences ... but it's simply up the the driver.

[SOMEONE ELSE'S GOT MY NAME]

Actually, the NiMH batteries in the RX are good for 150,000 miles according to Toyota's extensive testing. That's significantly more than 5 years worth of driving for most people. During the time it takes to accumulate that many miles, the repair bills for MBs, VWs, Audis, and even BMWs would be exponetially higher than that of any Lexus. Keep any of these German cars long enough and you would know.

Certainly the batteries may "live" for that long, but they will be operating at far less than their original rated capacity. That's just a fact of all lithium-based batteries.

Hugh? There are canadian cab companies (rememer how harsh THOSE winters are) that are racking up over 300K miles on their hybrids, while showing very little battery pack degridation. Sure, like any car part, there'll be exceptions ... but so far, those hybrids that are passing 200K and above are doing way better than expected.

[jkatsoudas]

Actually, the NiMH batteries in the RX are good for 150,000 miles according to Toyota's extensive testing. That's significantly more than 5 years worth of driving for most people. During the time it takes to accumulate that many miles, the repair bills for MBs, VWs, Audis, and even BMWs would be exponetially higher than that of any Lexus. Keep any of these German cars long enough and you would know.

Certainly the batteries may "live" for that long, but they will be operating at far less than their original rated capacity. That's just a fact of all lithium-based batteries.

Hugh? There are canadian cab companies (rememer how harsh THOSE winters are) that are racking up over 300K miles on their hybrids, while showing very little battery pack degridation. Sure, like any car part, there'll be exceptions ... but so far, those hybrids that are passing 200K and above are doing way better than expected.

It's time, not mileage that degrades battery packs. A Lithium or Nickel-based battery pack will degrade at a certain percentage per year, regardless of use. 300K miles on a cab is likely less than 3 years. Let's see how they do in another 2 or 3.

[jkatsoudas]

The BMW is rated at 16 mpg city / 24 mpg hwy and the Mercedes, 16/Highway 21 MPG, while the heavier RX400h is rated at 27 mpg city and 24 mpg highway, handily beating both German cars by a long shot when it comes to fuel consumption.

Maybe in San Diego you can get that sort of mileage year-round, but anywhere that it actually gets cold you'll see the RX fuel economy plummet in the winter when it has to run the ICE to generate heat. Even up here, just a few hunded miles north of you, I see a significant drop in fuel economy in the winter. If you factor year-round average fuel economy for an RX in "average" weather conditions, the RX doesn't handily beat either one, in fact my wife's E350 gets better fuel economy than my RX right now.

Hugh? Average winter in the Flathead Valley is in the low 30's ... with maybe 2 to 10 sub zeros every other year. You can STILL get in the 30's mpg simply by driving purposfully, combining short trips, blocking your grill and adding a block heater. Sure, if you don't do that, take tons of short trips, then you'll sufffer the mpg consequences ... but it's simply up the the driver.

You're right- all of those things will make a difference and it's up to each person to decide if the extra mpg is worth the effort. However, 99% of hybrid drivers won't do those things. My point is simply that you can't drive the car the same way year-round and expect 27/24 mpg. Once you factor the cold-weather specific mpg decline of hybrids their advantage over conventional ICE vehicles dwindles.

[SOMEONE ELSE'S GOT MY NAME]

It's time, not mileage that degrades battery packs. A Lithium or Nickel-based battery pack will degrade at a certain percentage per year, regardless of use. 300K miles on a cab is likely less than 3 years. Let's see how they do in another 2 or 3.

I don't know battery physices, but battery designers / manufacturers say battery life is based not on time, rather the ratio between the rated life, the depth of discharge for which rated cycle life was determined and the cycle life at rated depths of discharge and discharge current.

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:j2w1D...;cd=1&gl=us

[jkatsoudas]

I don't know battery physices, but battery designers / manufacturers say battery life is based not on time, rather the ratio between the rated life, the depth of discharge for which rated cycle life was determined and the cycle life at rated depths of discharge and discharge current.

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:j2w1D...;cd=1&gl=us

Interesting paper. Thanks. However, by their own admission, they distinguish between battery wear and battery aging in this paper and choose to address only battery wear in their model.

When considering battery life, one can distinguish between battery aging and battery wear. Battery

aging refers to those factors or processes that tend to limit the duration of the battery’s physical

integrity and its ability to perform its intended function. Battery wear refers to those factors or

processes that tend to limit the amount of electric energy that can be stored or delivered. Corrosion

is a major component of battery aging, particularly in lead-acid batteries, which are the most

common. All batteries, however, are subject to processes that tend to deteriorate and contaminate

the plates and/or electrolyte, so that even in continuous float service battery life time is limited.

Ageing, of course can be greatly accelerated by adverse environmental conditions or improper

maintenance, but these things can presumably be controlled. Battery wear, on the other hand, is

much more a function of the particular charge/discharge history the battery is subjected to. An

abusive use pattern can cause a battery to fail long before it would cease to be viable merely through

aging processes. The life prediction method described here does not address battery aging; it only

attempts to predict battery life based on accumulated wear.

A further distinction to be made is between the life of an individual cell and the useful life of a

collection of cells in a large battery bank. Small differences between cells in plate availability, state

of charge, and temperature can become quite pronounced with repeated cycling of the battery. If

these differences are not corrected, the weak cells will drag down the whole battery string, resulting

in premature failure. The present analysis is concerned with individual cell life under prescribed

discharge pattern. We assume that the battery receives proper periodic equalization charges and

relatively uniform battery temperature control.

Many factors contribute to the useful life of a battery cell in a given application. These include depth

of discharge, discharge rate, cell temperature, charging regime, dwell time at low and high states of

charge, battery maintenance procedures, current ripple, and amount and frequency of overcharge.

The system designer and/or operator has some degree of control over all of these factors except depth

of discharge and discharge rate. Once a battery is selected to meet a given load, the power demanded

by the load will determine the depth and rate of discharge, which is why these two factors are the

focus of this life prediction method. Strictly speaking, in some hybrid power applications,

particularly where battery recharging is done primarily with renewable energy, there is very little

control over charge rate either. However, there is some evidence that high charge rates at low and

intermediate states of charge are not harmful to battery life (and in fact may increase it) , and until

more research is done in this area, we will not consider the effect of charge rate in our model.

I found another paper that also has some good information:

http://www.cobasys.com/pdf/presentations/C...PaperFormat.pdf

A brief excerpt from this paper:

NiMH batteries exhibit certain failure mechanisms that determine the end of life of the battery. Some of these mechanisms

can be catastrophic (i.e. render the battery inoperative) while others are a natural part of use and aging of the materials in the

cell.

The primary criterion used for end of life in many applications is the point at which the battery capacity has faded below 80%

of its rated capacity.

They do go on to say, near the end, that some hypothetical calculations put the life expectancy of a NiMH pack near 10-15 in certain conditions.

The common theme seems to be that batteries wear due to excessive charge or discharge, exposure to excessive heat or cold, and number of charge/discharge cycles. They also age through corrosion of the plate material.

Excessive charge can be controlled by the electronics. Excessive discharge is a little trickier, since all batteries naturally self-discharge at a certain rate while stored. The car's electronics will prevent it from excessively discharging below a certain point while driving, but if you were to park the car while the battery is in a state of low charge and leave it parked there long enough, the batteries may self-discharge below the 1.0 volt per cell minimum that has been show to cause damage to NiMH batteries. There's another thread about how long you can "safely" park the car, and it's a tricky question because it depends on the state of charge of the batteries when you parked it. If you parked it with a pretty good charge, it can sit for a while but if you park it with a low charge it's possible for the batteries to self-discharge to the point that they damage themselves. Complicating all of this is the fact the environment is tough to control in this application. In a very hot climate, say Tempe in the summer, it's not too difficult to imagine the vehicle's interior temperature climbing above the point where it starts to impact long-term battery life. It's not going to kill the pack instantly but it will affect it's lifespan. Excessive cold has a simiar impact. So, it's not too hard to imagine this theoretical 10-15 year lifespan being reduced significantly once you start to factor in environmental and usage issues.

[jrober]

The Toyota Prius has been in production for about 10 years now (in Japan initially). There are very few reports of battery failure requiring replacement. I have better things to worry about in my life than the battery life of my 400h.

[SOMEONE ELSE'S GOT MY NAME]

The Toyota Prius has been in production for about 10 years now (in Japan initially). There are very few reports of battery failure requiring replacement. I have better things to worry about in my life than the battery life of my 400h.

True. Even so, it's nice to know that results so far show that kind of durability. Same with the little Toyota RAV4-EV's. Owners are doing 10 years on their batteires now, with most still retaining +90% of their original chargability ... turning how well the batteries have been treated. The great thing is that with new advancements, battery chemestries keep getting better & better.

[riwyle]

The Toyota Prius has been in production for about 10 years now (in Japan initially). There are very few reports of battery failure requiring replacement. I have better things to worry about in my life than the battery life of my 400h.

True. Even so, it's nice to know that results so far show that kind of durability. Same with the little Toyota RAV4-EV's. Owners are doing 10 years on their batteires now, with most still retaining +90% of their original chargability ... turning how well the batteries have been treated. The great thing is that with new advancements, battery chemestries keep getting better & better.

Do you have a reference for this 90% number? Would like to review the details.

[RXREY]

Yes.

[SOMEONE ELSE'S GOT MY NAME]

Yes.

I 2nd that yes. I subscribe to the Rav4ev email list where the few hundred individual owners talk about their records and averages. Here's their signup page where they'll gladly detail their data for you upon bringing it up:

http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/rav4-ev

They obviously don't know about data from the business owned rav4ev's (such as the 100 or so owned by Edison electric) but it's the best source going since Toyota doesn't care to document their info. I'd suspect fleet owned rav4ev's do worse, based on how poorly maintained fleet vehicles can be. I work for Disney and our Chevy EV pick ups were literally beat to death ... no proactive maintenance, just reactive.

[NeoN]

fellas...we don't need to turn this thread into a 10-15 year ownership, lifespan of the batteries, blah blah blah.. :chairshot: please... its a LEXUS!! The car is going to last longer than you will probably own it for, so what is there to worry about?

It was a simple question. Given the cars available RIGHT NOW, would you purchase an RX400h again, yes or no, and why,