End Of An Ls400's Life

[Broker]

People often ask, "how long will an LS400 last?" and other similar reliability questions, and the response is a bunch of people with very high mileage LS's saying they have very few problems. well, as anyone ever seen one that was actually at the end of it's life simply from high mileage, without being in a wreck? I've never heard of one.

[sv7887]

People often ask, "how long will an LS400 last?" and other similar reliability questions, and the response is a bunch of people with very high mileage LS's saying they have very few problems. well, as anyone ever seen one that was actually at the end of it's life simply from high mileage, without being in a wreck? I've never heard of one.

It's a question of economics really. Most of these cars get trashed when they start needing serious suspension work around 150-200K. Most of the early LS400's you'll see for sale probably have some deferred maintenance on them. Since I regularly see Camrys with 200K on them, I pretty sure a LS400 can at least that if not more. Have a look at my "tribute" to my 1992 LS and "How Long can a 91 LS go" for an idea on the lifespan of these cars.

You can keep virtually any car running if you are willing to pay. Having said that I think the "Economic" life of a LS400 is somewhere around 250-300K miles. But there is a well publicised article of an LS400 with >500K on it. It's all in the maintenance. For example, I just bought a MB S430 for my dad and do worry about whether it will break down. In contrast I never even think that my 1992 LS400 will fail to start. The car has had some suspension issues, but hasn't failed in a way that required towing to the dealer.

Another thing to think about: The LS400 was built to compete with the world's best. Toyota knew that being "Just as good" wasn't good enough. They had to be "Better" and they are. If you ever work on a LS400 you'll notice the attention to detail and quality of all the switchgear. I had to replace a tailight bulb last year and couldn't believe the quality of all the seals in the rear assembly.

Hope this helps,

Sam

[monarch]

Mechanically, there is nothing special about the LS400 compared to other Toyotas. Like other Toyotas, a large percentage of LS400's end up in automotive graveyards somewhere between 175,000 - 350,000 miles.

Why? The owners subjected their cars to fatal forms of both driving abuse and maintenance neglect which ruined their engines and transmissions somewhere between 175,000 - 350,000 miles.

Specifically, what commonly happens is the engine will begin to exhibit some sort of abnormality such as more noise at idle, a bit rougher idle, run with weaker acceleration, or may run slightly hotter or get worse fuel economy. What do 95% of owners do about these abnormalities? Answer: Nothing! They just keep on driving and that in turn leads to mechanical damage to the engine or its critical gaskets or subsystems (like the emission control system) which would be cost prohitive to fix so the car is sold to an automotive junkyard or recycler.

If you read through the LOC forum archives you can find literally hundreds of owners with over 100,000 miles who admit they keep on driving when there engines exhibit various abnormalities such as reduced power and gas mileage. These owners are digging their own automotive graves

What causes the abnormalities to begin with? Usually neglected or delayed preventive maintenance and failure to use genuine Toyota parts, filters and fluids when performing the maintenance.

.

[akewlguy]

Good points monarch... Sometimes I wonder how I would know if things were worse... Since I bought the LS at 90k.

Well for sure I am using the Toyota parts, premium fuel and regular check ups.

[dole2000]

I have 228K on mine. Had the timing belt done along with the water pump and power steering. I can see with a little bad luck it could get expensive. Just did new brake calipers this weekend. And it idles a little louder than it used to.

[monarch]

dole2000 some of your intake valves could have loose clearances if the engine emits a tick-tick-tick type noise at idle. Your '90 4Runner engine, if it is a V6, tends to develope tight exhaust valve clearances on some cylinders over time, leading to burned valves. Valves with tight clearances are quiet so the V6 owner can be fooled into thinking nothing is wrong with their engines until valve burning causes a rough engine idle and reduced power output.

[Iowa]

Hi,

I am looking to buy an old LS400 (1992). Would anyone mind to help me checking the carfax of its VIN: JT8UF11E5N0139143. Thank you so much in advance.

[eatingupblacktop]

Mechanically, there is nothing special about the LS400 compared to other Toyotas. Like other Toyotas, a large percentage of LS400's end up in automotive graveyards somewhere between 175,000 - 350,000 miles.

Why? The owners subjected their cars to fatal forms of both driving abuse and maintenance neglect which ruined their engines and transmissions somewhere between 175,000 - 350,000 miles.

Specifically, what commonly happens is the engine will begin to exhibit some sort of abnormality such as more noise at idle, a bit rougher idle, run with weaker acceleration, or may run slightly hotter or get worse fuel economy. What do 95% of owners do about these abnormalities? Answer: Nothing! They just keep on driving and that in turn leads to mechanical damage to the engine or its critical gaskets or subsystems (like the emission control system) which would be cost prohitive to fix so the car is sold to an automotive junkyard or recycler.

If you read through the LOC forum archives you can find literally hundreds of owners with over 100,000 miles who admit they keep on driving when there engines exhibit various abnormalities such as reduced power and gas mileage. These owners are digging their own automotive graves

What causes the abnormalities to begin with? Usually neglected or delayed preventive maintenance and failure to use genuine Toyota parts, filters and fluids when performing the maintenance.

.

Well spoken monarch. You can add to that list, owners who typically turn in their cars at the end of their 2-4 year lease. Not much motivation there for taking proper care of the car. Not to mention drivers who drive the crap out of their cars. I remember slowing down for a railway crossing that I knew to be very bumpy, and watching this guy in his Sunfire just rip across 4 sets of tracks without slowing down at all (no brake lights showing). By midway across, one hubcap came flying off one wheel and I saw the tailpipe sparking as it hit the pavement (obviously having lost a hanger or two with this kind of driving) and he just kept on going. Can imagine what shape his struts, shocks, engine mounts, differential, etc. were in.

Doesn't mean the car's going to fall apart right away, and with luck he'll unload it just in time for the new owner to empty his pockets after buying this beater. Abuse doesn't always show up upon inspection (some curbsiders are very skillfull at covering up problems), but it does catch up eventually.

[SW03ES]

Actually you'd be surprised, 2-4 year lease cars tend to be pretty well maintained...

[VMF]

agree with above post, got a cpo ls430 well maintained.

my 96 ls is also maintained pretty good and so far has no probllems.

maintaince is the key to long life of the car.

[eatingupblacktop]

Actually you'd be surprised, 2-4 year lease cars tend to be pretty well maintained...

Point taken, and I agree, in order to maintain the warranty and get fair value at the end of the lease you have to do the scheduled service. That's not what I meant to say. I'm talking about a lessee who leaves the sunroof/window cracked when it's raining, or uses cheap/low octane fuel, constant hard driving, doesn't wash or rinse the car regularly especially in the winter when it's caked with salt, always parks under a tree where the birds have a target practice with his hood and roof, doesn't bother to vacuum the carpets or condition the leather, likes to know where the curb is everytime he parks, idles the car for hours in noonday sun with the a/c on full, etc. You see where I'm going with this. I'm inclined to think it's more likely that someone who has purchased their car will take better care of it for the day when they're going to sell it. A purchase is usually kept longer than the 2-4 year lease. A lot of potential problems will not show up until after the car has been traded in on a new lease. I think the attitude towards ownership is different in each case. I equate a purchase with pride of ownership and satisfaction in the condition of your vehicle. Lease, imo, often equates to a utilitarian disposable commodity much like a rental where as long as you don't ding it you don't have any responsiblity or motivation for babying the car. I'd rather buy a car from the original owner with documentation than pick up one that's just been turned in at the end of a lease no matter how well it's been serviced.

[fiveofakind]

241k on my 1992 LS 400 & running strong.....

[TexasLexus94]

My '94LS with 120,000 miles has had any number of maintenance and repair/replacement items since I bought it with 97,000 miles. The previous owner was an executive here in Las Vegas who got hammered by the only local dealer, especially for 3 brake jobs, as well as pricey tune-ups and new tires, etc. It was amazing how many inside lights were burned out. But I can at least do all that stuff. I even replaced that Air Control valve on the P/S pump myself, so I haven't had the P/S misery yet.

So I've put a lot of new parts in the car, and had one major repair, for the timing belt and water pump-a $1,300 hit. Yes, it was excessive, but the local indie, who is now out of business, did a good job. But let's look at it this way-My Lexus is my Winter car, and I only use it as a backup/long distance/here come the relatives/ summer trip car. It is in pristine condition, garage kept. Everything works perfectly. I figured out the other day that it costs me about $80 a month to own a Lexus. Including repairs and insurance. I only have liability and property damage coverage, since it is now 14 years old. But it is a great ride, and all my friends and relatives love the leather seats and great A/C. When we drive to the MGM or Bellagio, I have no shame giving the keys to the parking valet, flipping him a ten spot, and saying "Take care of my baby, young man...."

[SW03ES]

Actually you'd be surprised, 2-4 year lease cars tend to be pretty well maintained...

Point taken, and I agree, in order to maintain the warranty and get fair value at the end of the lease you have to do the scheduled service. That's not what I meant to say. I'm talking about a lessee who leaves the sunroof/window cracked when it's raining, or uses cheap/low octane fuel, constant hard driving... Lease, imo, often equates to a utilitarian disposable commodity much like a rental where as long as you don't ding it you don't have any responsiblity or motivation for babying the car. I'd rather buy a car from the original owner with documentation than pick up one that's just been turned in at the end of a lease no matter how well it's been serviced.

As someone who leases luxury cars himself, as someone who'se father leased luxury cars for 30 years, and as someone who knows a LOT of people who lease luxury cars (almost everyone in my profession leases) I disagree. Most people, even when they lease, see it as a significant use of financial resources and treat the vehicle accordingly. I mean, leasing an LS costs around $1k a month, thats not a insignificant amount of money to anyone.

I agree with you that on the whole owners are going to take care of the car better than lessees. However, if you're looking at a 2-3 year old car theres not going to be a significant difference in the quality of the car whether it was owned or leased. If it was owned and then traded in 2-3 years it shows that the owner didn't have a long term plan with the car and that they aren't concerned with significant financial loss. How is this different then how you're categorizing people who lease cars?

I would have absolutely no fear buying a pre-owned car of this caliber that had come off a 2-3 year lease. Who cares if they never vaccumed it, washed it, or conditioned the leather. Those are things you can see when you examine the car, and since the car is so new those are things you can remedy and it won't have any lasting effect on the quality of the car. As for hard driving, you can see evedince of that in terms of curb rashing, suspension wear, rattling and looseness, etc.

[eatingupblacktop]

Actually you'd be surprised, 2-4 year lease cars tend to be pretty well maintained...

Point taken, and I agree, in order to maintain the warranty and get fair value at the end of the lease you have to do the scheduled service. That's not what I meant to say. I'm talking about a lessee who leaves the sunroof/window cracked when it's raining, or uses cheap/low octane fuel, constant hard driving... Lease, imo, often equates to a utilitarian disposable commodity much like a rental where as long as you don't ding it you don't have any responsiblity or motivation for babying the car. I'd rather buy a car from the original owner with documentation than pick up one that's just been turned in at the end of a lease no matter how well it's been serviced.

As someone who leases luxury cars himself, as someone who'se father leased luxury cars for 30 years, and as someone who knows a LOT of people who lease luxury cars (almost everyone in my profession leases) I disagree. Most people, even when they lease, see it as a significant use of financial resources and treat the vehicle accordingly. I mean, leasing an LS costs around $1k a month, thats not a insignificant amount of money to anyone.

I agree with you that on the whole owners are going to take care of the car better than lessees. However, if you're looking at a 2-3 year old car theres not going to be a significant difference in the quality of the car whether it was owned or leased. If it was owned and then traded in 2-3 years it shows that the owner didn't have a long term plan with the car and that they aren't concerned with significant financial loss. How is this different then how you're categorizing people who lease cars?

I would have absolutely no fear buying a pre-owned car of this caliber that had come off a 2-3 year lease. Who cares if they never vaccumed it, washed it, or conditioned the leather. Those are things you can see when you examine the car, and since the car is so new those are things you can remedy and it won't have any lasting effect on the quality of the car. As for hard driving, you can see evedince of that in terms of curb rashing, suspension wear, rattling and looseness, etc.

I'm not saying that all leased vehicles could be problematic. My 91LS was a return for a lease on a new LS. It was meticulously documented down to the last bulb including warranty disputes with the dealership

and Lexus Canada (previous owner was a doctor). This after looking for over 6 months (lease returns and private sales) and seeing some sad examples of "luxury cars". Same goes for all the makes. Actually, in my search, bimmers and benzes were the worst of the lot, and they are more expensive than lexus. So your argument that "a significant use of financial resources and treat the vehicle accordingly" didn't apply in my experience. Don't forget, that an equal or greater amount of resources go into purchasing the vehicle as compared with leasing it.

As for potential problems revealing themselves early, (not everything shows up by the time the car is traded in) this is true if you are familiar with the car and know where and what to look for.

Unfortunately, a lot of buyers fall in love with the shine and the ride and the smooth sales pitch that they fail to use their common sense and have the car checked out. We have an organization in Canada, the APA: http://www.apa.ca/ who upon request will refer an interested buyer to an inspection shop that does only inspections and no repairs and will give you an complete report on every part of the car for about $125. Money well spent. I will use them for my next purchase. BTW, I was one of the buyers who fell in love with the shine and ride of my current LS, perhaps because of all the dogs I had seen before finding this one. I did however check it out before buying.

Most of the people I know in my business also lease their cars new. My point, and I think you've agreed, was that your chances of finding a used car (luxury or otherwise) that has not been abused are better with a purchased car than with one that's been leased or subleased.

And then there's a whole other category of cars to watch out for - repossessed

[SW03ES]

My point, and I think you've agreed, was that your chances of finding a used car (luxury or otherwise) that has not been abused are better with a purchased car than with one that's been leased or subleased.

Actually no, I completely disagree with that statement. If you're talking about looking at 2-3 year old cars, I think you probably have better luck finding a lease return because most of them will be lease returns.

[eatingupblacktop]

My point, and I think you've agreed, was that your chances of finding a used car (luxury or otherwise) that has not been abused are better with a purchased car than with one that's been leased or subleased.

Actually no, I completely disagree with that statement. If you're talking about looking at 2-3 year old cars, I think you probably have better luck finding a lease return because most of them will be lease returns.

I'm not limiting them to 2-3 years. A lot of lease go up to 5 years.

[SW03ES]

But the VAST majority of leases are 36 months. I would never buy a 5 year old car used anyways, lease or not. I'm talking about what you were talking about, off lease vehicles 2-3 years old. 75% of all leases are 36 month leases.

From your original post:

You can add to that list, owners who typically turn in their cars at the end of their 2-4 year lease.

[eatingupblacktop]

But the VAST majority of leases are 36 months. I would never buy a 5 year old car used anyways, lease or not. I'm talking about what you were talking about, off lease vehicles 2-3 years old. 75% of all leases are 36 month leases.

From your original post:

You can add to that list, owners who typically turn in their cars at the end of their 2-4 year lease.

I don't think there's much point to continue with this debate. So I will summarize my perspective.

I don't have the figures on the terms of the majority of leases. You might not buy a car that's older than 5 years but many do including a lot of members to this forum.

Nevertheless, the original question was "how long will an LS400 last?" My point in essence is that it depends on how it's been maintained and cared for. Period.

[scottmcc]

I purchased my LS 430 from the president of the company I work for and it was leased. Because it was leased through the company expense was not spared at all. It never missed any scheduled maintenance. In fact every time it went in for its regular maintenance he had it detailed at $180 a pop.. He took great care of this vehicle and it shows.

I am not sure that it is whether it is purchased or leased that contributes to vehicle abuse but rather the character of the owner\driver. I would do the same research either way.. The only type of vehicle that I would not purchase is one from a rental agency.. I take care of all my vehicles but I have to say when I am on a business trip and have to rent a car, I drive the car pretty hard. If you have a chance to purchase a 07 Silver Mustang from Budget Rental I would pass on that one.... LOL....

[SW03ES]

You might not buy a car that's older than 5 years but many do including a lot of members to this forum.

Thats great, but its not what we were talking about. We were talking about 2-3 year old lease returns.

[jainla]

You might not buy a car that's older than 5 years but many do including a lot of members to this forum.

Thats great, but its not what we were talking about. We were talking about 2-3 year old lease returns.

I've never leased a car but most of my father's family and friends in Miami do. They tell me they tend to take pretty good care of the cars because when they turn them in at the end of the lease the dealer charges them (or their security deposit) for every scratch, nick, dent, etc. Similarly my mom who also leases takes pretty good care of her car.

The thing with Lexus (and most Toyotas) is that there isn't really much major maintenance in the first 36,000 miles; save for the fluids change at 30k and maintenance items (brakes most likely). So even if someone just changes the oil and gives the car back at 36,000 miles you're maybe late on the fluids change but not much else.

Once you go past that 36,000 mile limit though I agree with Steve; the potential for non-maintenance is much higher; also just the wear and tear adds up; crappy driving and no maintenance for 50-60k miles equals more damage/wear than crappy driving for 30k miles.

In my experience though the major problems (engine failure, transmission blowout) are more due to faulty design or extremely abusive driving over many years (misuse, misapplication, no you can't tow a locomotive with an ES) than specific maintenance practice; and most people drive the way they drive no matter what car they are driving. My 240D just had it's slave cylinder replaced; and I've followed the maintenance schedule religiously for the last 100k miles. Parts just wear out; and sooner or later people draw a line as to when to repair and when to throw in the towel.

[Lexusfreak]

My 05 ES was a lease return & the previous owner had every single maintenance item looked after at one Lexus dealer....the good news is I have almost a full year of factory warranty left too. Nothing wrong with a lease return if it was well looked after. B)