Driving In Snow

[ZINFANDEL22]

Hi All,

I've been driving my Lexus cars for over 10 years in Boston winters. Buy yourself a set of Bridgestone Blizzak WS-50 tires. I used them on my 92 LS and now my 05 LS430. They are dynamite in the snow, I've never had a problem with them..

I do find that it is necessary to turn the Traction Control off when you are going up hills, as the Trac just cuts the power so you just sit there.

Hope this helps,

Sam

Sam ,thanks for a piece of advice with shutting off the Traction Control. It is my first winter with 1999 LS and I got Dunlop Winter Sport M3 tires, very happy with them, haven`t got stuck once so far, In my opinion those are very good tires, I will summer tires for summer(not all season) ;)

I think the dunlop winter tires are a great choice. Compare some other winter tires on tirerack and you will see a few that compete and even beat blizzak's. For traction in wet , snow noise all around winter driving blizzak only wins in one feild "SNOW TRACTION" and not by much either,so in my opinion you still are looking for ride ,noise, wet traction also so there are other winter tires out there.

[id1]

This is for ARMYOFONE who responded to my suggestion for driving in 2nd gear when it snows. I compared it to engine braking due to the underlying principle. If anyone wants to put 4 snow tires on, drive in snow the same way one would drive in dry weather then it is his/her choice. And I checked with couple of experienced mechanics and they assured me engine braking does not stress transmission unless one is stupid enough to shift to 2nd, regularly, from 80mph to break. I have suggested what worked for me last 3 winters and in bumper to bumper traffic on local roads I drive in 2nd gear in snow to reduce the braking effort. I have 160k on my LS and I know how to take good care of it. Thanks for your 'check transmission' suggestion though.

[ArmyofOne]

This is for ARMYOFONE who responded to my suggestion for driving in 2nd gear when it snows. I compared it to engine braking due to the underlying principle. If anyone wants to put 4 snow tires on, drive in snow the same way one would drive in dry weather then it is his/her choice. And I checked with couple of experienced mechanics and they assured me engine braking does not stress transmission unless one is stupid enough to shift to 2nd, regularly, from 80mph to break. I have suggested what worked for me last 3 winters and in bumper to bumper traffic on local roads I drive in 2nd gear in snow to reduce the braking effort. I have 160k on my LS and I know how to take good care of it. Thanks for your 'check transmission' suggestion though.

I wasnt meaning to sound harsh. i just cant stand it when someone is told something and i know its wrong.

engine braking with an automatic CAN be harmful when not done properly. It sounds like you know what you are doing, carry on. i would still check the fluid regularly. im assuming you do that from your response.

[SW03ES]

iD1, in bumper to bumper traffic driving in second gear isn't really going to do anything for you as you'll spend most of your time in first gear anyways.

I also didn't say it would hurt your transmission, as long as you're staying within the normal confines of what you could reasonably drive the vehicle in second gear in, but its probably not doing anything to help you in the snow.

If anything you're probably better off shifting into neutral when trying to brake to a stop in the snow so you remove all load from the rear wheels.

[W201 sweden]

Just a short one... ;)

Regarding the "ouch, almost stopped, front wheels locked, but rear weels keep pushing me forward" syndrome.

I've done it many times, especially while driving powerful V8 / V12 MB:s very slowly on wet tile floors or in the snowy parking lot. There is absolutely no control, all that idle torque just puuuushes you forward. :o

Most of the time I just select Neutral, and try to roll the last distance to a stand still.

/Alexander

Edited January 2, 2006 by W201 sweden

[SW03ES]

Thats what I was tought in precision driving school, and what I do. If anything by staying in second gear you're increasing torque to the rear wheels, making it more difficult to come to a safe stop.

[j.barleycorn]

Ah, what the heck, I'll throw my opinion in.

I’ve lived in Rochester NY/upstate NY and its environs all my life, so I have driven in many blizzards (thanks to the infamous lake effect snows off Lake Ontario and/or Lake Erie) and through many lousy winters in all kinds of FWD and RWD vehicles, including:

1971 Pontiac LeMans

1974 Ford Pinto

1977 Chevy Malibu

1983 Honda Civic S

1991 Nissan Sentra

1989 Nissan 2WD pickup

1979 Saab 99

1994 Toyota Corolla

1996 Toyota 4runner

1991 Toyota Previa

1968 VW Camper

2000 Honda Odyssey

1988 Chevy Nova

1992 Lexus LS400

(yawn…. I know. Thanks for putting up with a trip down memory lane. Probably forgot a few, and the list does not include vehicles my spouses have owned)

Any how, my $0.03: If you know how to drive in the snow, I don’t think there is a big difference between FW and RW drive. If I had to choose, I would take FWD. Just my preference, mainly for traction reasons.

Also, when the roads threaten and I want a little more control of the engine, I just take the overdrive off (in the 4runner, Lexus, or any vehicle). I find that gives just the perfect amount of additional “drag” when you want to decelerate without braking.

Now, the LS400. Today was the first time I drove it under "hazardous" winter conditions. My commute is 46 miles one-way, and the elevation change en-route can cause dramatic weather differences. I was too lazy to check the forecast this morning, and let the recent nice weather and sunny sunrise lulled me into blissful complacency. If bad weather is forecasted (or even if only snow), I take the 4runner to work. But today I took the Lexus and ran into a 25 mile long blizzard and icy, snow covered roads.

The car had come with fresh winter tires on it: KUMHO KW11 Snow Tires (205/65/R15). They are fairly quiet on dry roads, and excellent on wet ones. This was their first test on real snow and ice.

I have to say, with the traction control and those Korean winter tires, the car handles superbly. I did have to pull onto a main road from an icy incline on the way home after work, and it seemed to take forever as the car inched forward and the TRAC lights burned brightly, but it made it and stayed straight and true until we reached level ground. I was able to drive 40-50 MPH without much concern.

Love the Lexus. And while I envy you southern and western guys that don’t have to subject your cars to these conditions, it somehow brings you a little closer to your car after you find out what it can do in a pinch.

[jainla]

After reading all these snow stories I can't resist..

:P

When I was growing up in Pennsylvania and going to school in CT I drove 3 cars fairly regularly in the snow:

a Peugeot 505 wagon, a Nissan Maxima, and a Mercedes 240.

Both the Pug and the MB were RWD and the Max was front wheel drive; none of these cars had ABS or dedicated snow tires (all hail the all-season radial). Every once in a while (especially when the snow was just falling) I'd go out and 'test the limits.' Then the next day we had to actually go places in that stuff.

Some interesting observations:

The Peugeot was actually the best in the snow. You could lock the wheels, but the car went absolutely where it was pointed. A heavy foot was needed to break the tail away (not much power) but you could control it fairly well.

The MB was right behind, stable, balanced. Its diesel engine wasn't going to win any drag races, but it also kept the car from fishtailing. I bet the tire choices (it had crappy tires) limited its grip compared to the Peugeot.

The Max, the FWD car was actually the WORST in the snow. You didn't fishtail, but the V6 could still easily break traction if you goosed the throttle. Also, when you slammed on the brakes, the car would skid (and this is scary) start to rotate, usually to the right. It was not very controllable, and letting off the brakes didn't always give you back control.

I think the 2 reasons for this strange performance were the tires and the engine power and placement. The tires on the MB and Peugeot were not very wide, basically standard-size tires for the day. This made the contact patches smaller, which increases the pressure per square inch at each corner. Bad for track work (because the specific pressure over area limit comes up sooner and you lose grip) but great for snow because it pushed more deeply into the snow surface and increased the specific pressure per square inch (basically put you closer to the limit for most of the time). The Max had fairly wide, fairly low profile tires. I'll bet this spread the weight over a greater area and gave it less traction in the snow. Most trucks designed for heavy snow or mud work have skinny tires.

The other was the power/weight ratio and placement of the engine. In a lighter, less powerful car FWD and RWD both probably have a more central weight balance (lighter engine). In this case FWD is probably more stable b/c the greater pressure at the front wheels gives those wheels better traction for starting and controlling the car.

Once the car gets heavier and more powerful (the above comparison the Max was both the heaviest and the most powerful) I suspect the ultimate stability advantage would go to the RWD car; the FWD car will have a much larger forward weight bias; so the traction limit of the front tires is more easily exceeded, and the rear tires won't have enough weight over them to compensate. As others have pointed out those tires have more to do (steer and pull) so a loss of traction would do more to affect stability than a RWD car.

Also with more of the mass centralized at the front of the car instead of balanced front to back it actually becomes easier to rotate it (less moment of inertia for you physics geeks out there) so the car may become less stable if you break traction on all 4 wheels; it might not necessarily go where its pointed. So the FWD car won't fishtail when you pull out, but if you somehow break traction you might be in trouble.

With the advent of traction and stability control and ABS all the above concerns are somewhat eliminated; but the basic physics is still there. Even with ABS and TRAC/VSC the rear drive cars are more controllable at the limit; especially if you exceed the reach of the electronic control systems (getting harder to do but still possible). Case and point you don't see any FWD cars with more than 300hp and they ALL have stability control....even Cadillac changed the STS to RWD with its last model changeover.

A couple years ago Car and Driver did a snow driving comparo with a Subaru SVX, a Pontiac Bonneville, and a Mercedes 500e. All the cars had the same tires and were balanced the same (thanks to some gravel in the seats or trunk).

They found the AWD Subaru had an obvious overall advantage, but the Pontiac and the MB were equally easy to drive with the traction control turned on. At that point it came down more to the specific capabilities of the stability control (MB was better) than the layout of the drivetrain. Turn off the TRAC and it was another story (basically the MB was so powerful that it was hard to make a meaningful comparison).

So FWD-RWD is not always an apples-to apples comparison. If your traction sucks in the snow obviously snow tires will help almost any car; you maybe don't need dedicated snow tires but narrower, all season radials would probably give you a better performance than regular street tires. You also save your summer tires and rims from all the salt and gravel that sits on those road during those months. But in bad weather (and aggressive driving on good roads) the RWD layout has some fundamental physical advantages.

In the end though, AWD in the snow is the way to go. My friend's Suburban was unstoppable through the worst blizzards in PA...

Wow....Sorry for the long post....slow day at the office.

[JUSTICE]

I am quite disappointed driving in first snow. This is my first winter and I drive LS 96's.

Previous owner, I bought the car in the spring 2005, assured me that he put all weather tires and they will be fine in the winter. But car handled horribly in the snow. Even heavy sand bag in the trunk was little help.

Does anybody has to buy snow tire for these cars or there are some type of all weather tires that work? Please advise.

Ross

PS

My car does have traction control.

If you love your car then treat her right. SNOW TIRES ARE A MUST. Nokian Hakkapeliitta 5 is what I use here in ALASKA on my 99 LS and I get around great. No Worries. I tried blizzak and they are JUNK. DO NOT CHEAP OUT ON SNOW TIRES.