tckcumming Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 See the photo - these are the plugs I pulled from the rear bank of my '93 ES300 (cyls. # 1, 3, 5, in order). My car has close to 200,00 KM (120,000 miles, give or take). Original plugs were supposedly changed at around 100,00KM (60000 miles) by a local Toyota dealer when I had the timing belt and a myriad of other work done about 5 yrs ago. The center NGK plug was obviously never removed. It was in the center rear cylinder - the hardest one to reach. It was very loose in the head, too - I suspect some moron mechanic tried to remove it, had a hard time and just left it. Amazing that the engine ran as well as it has for all this time with an old, loose plug rattling around in there. Finding this example of shoddy workmanship makes me suspicious about the other work that was done by this dealer. Luckily, I haven't been back there since the timing belt change. The moral of my story - ALWAYS ask for your old parts back when someone else works on your car, and check to make sure that the parts were actually changed. tck... p.s. I'd like to send this photo and a complaint to Toyota Canada - anyone know an email address? I don't expect them to do anything about this, as the "work" was done so long ago. But "ratting" on the dealer will make me feel a little better, at least! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eman_be_lexin Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 If you have a receipt I would definately jump all over that dealership. But it also shows how good those spark plugs are to have survived for so long. I still have my original spark plugs in my 97 and I just hit 161000 miles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jragosta Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 If you have a receipt I would definately jump all over that dealership. But it also shows how good those spark plugs are to have survived for so long. I still have my original spark plugs in my 97 and I just hit 161000 miles. ← Why in the world haven't you changed them? First, you're losing money in gas mileage. More importantly, an old plug can literally fall apart - with one or more pieces falling off - and damaging your cylinder wall. You're just asking for trouble, IMHO. Change those plugs. Now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcfish Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 If you have a receipt I would definately jump all over that dealership. But it also shows how good those spark plugs are to have survived for so long. I still have my original spark plugs in my 97 and I just hit 161000 miles. ← Why in the world haven't you changed them? First, you're losing money in gas mileage. More importantly, an old plug can literally fall apart - with one or more pieces falling off - and damaging your cylinder wall. You're just asking for trouble, IMHO. Change those plugs. Now. ← I agree, Change the plugs ASAP. You will save yourself a major headache. :chairshot: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexusfreak Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 See the photo - these are the plugs I pulled from the rear bank of my '93 ES300 (cyls. # 1, 3, 5, in order). My car has close to 200,00 KM (120,000 miles, give or take). Original plugs were supposedly changed at around 100,00KM (60000 miles) by a local Toyota dealer when I had the timing belt and a myriad of other work done about 5 yrs ago. The center NGK plug was obviously never removed. It was in the center rear cylinder - the hardest one to reach. It was very loose in the head, too - I suspect some moron mechanic tried to remove it, had a hard time and just left it. Amazing that the engine ran as well as it has for all this time with an old, loose plug rattling around in there. Finding this example of shoddy workmanship makes me suspicious about the other work that was done by this dealer. Luckily, I haven't been back there since the timing belt change. The moral of my story - ALWAYS ask for your old parts back when someone else works on your car, and check to make sure that the parts were actually changed. tck... p.s. I'd like to send this photo and a complaint to Toyota Canada - anyone know an email address? I don't expect them to do anything about this, as the "work" was done so long ago. But "ratting" on the dealer will make me feel a little better, at least! ← tck, Just go to Toyota.ca & click on 'contact us' & ask mention your complaint. They are usually pretty good responding. Good Luck. B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tckcumming Posted August 3, 2005 Author Share Posted August 3, 2005 If you have a receipt I would definately jump all over that dealership. But it also shows how good those spark plugs are to have survived for so long. I still have my original spark plugs in my 97 and I just hit 161000 miles. ← I was amazed at the condition of the Denso plugs, they have about 100,000km (60000mi.) on them and still look fresh and perfectly serviceable. Even the NGK in the photo looks pretty good considering its age & the abuse it has had. The original plug wire on #3 cyl (the one that had the old NGK plug in it) looked pretty dodgy, there must have been some blow-by from the loose plug for some period of time. I changed the wires, distributor cap and rotor as well, they were all original equipment and needed replacing. So, with my !! 6 !! new Denso platinum plugs, cap & rotor, new plug leads, air filter, and a good cleaning of the throttle plate & intake ( I used a can of brake cleaner and a toothbrush), my '93 Lexus runs better than it has in years. It shifts much more smoothly, too... or is it just my imagination?? I'm sure my gas mileage will improve, as well. All Good! tck... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysrme Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 And you guys never believe me when I tell you the Dealer Lexus / Toyota replacement plug is a $1 NGK. Yall also don't believe the cheap NGK/Denso plugs don't last a long time too! :P tckcumming you may have inadvertantly played with the kick down cable, or reset the ECU's if you pulled a battery cable. If you didn't do either one of those, the smooth transmission is just head games. =) Now cut your Air-flow meter open, mark the cog with paint / nail polish / sharpie / scratch it, and lean it about 5 clicks. You think it's nice with good spark, wait till you take the excess fuel it can't use out. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tckcumming Posted August 4, 2005 Author Share Posted August 4, 2005 Now cut your Air-flow meter open, mark the cog with paint / nail polish / sharpie / scratch it, and lean it about 5 clicks. ← Toysrme - Cut it open - how? Like with a hacksaw? More importantly, is this kind of mod reversible? I'll try anything - as long as I can put it back the way it was if I don't like the result. I don't want to have to buy a new airflow meter if I screw mine up. This reminds me of a gadget on my '69 MGB. There's a little thumbscrew on the side of the distributor with arrows marked "A" and "R". Turn the screw 10 clicks in the desired direction, you can Advance or !Removed! the timing by 1 degree. 20 clicks = 2 degrees, etc. Makes fine tuning the timing a breeze. Fuel mixture can be adjusted similarly with adjusting nuts on the bottom of the twin carbs. And I thought the age of computers had made these simple, low tech methods of turning things and counting "clicks", etc. obsolete. tck... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysrme Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 Razor knife. Cut the silicon glue off, pry the black top off without jabbing. Sure you can change it back. Just spin the cog back to the starting point. That's why I tell people to mark it! So we all know where the factory tune was. =) You can play with your ignition timing too if you want. 12mm socket + extension & a timing light is all you need. be sure to put the car in diagnostic mode when you change the timing. That is accomplished by opening the diagnostic's port & bridging TE1 & E1. Factory timing on all Modern Toyota engine's is 10*btdc. Have fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tckcumming Posted August 4, 2005 Author Share Posted August 4, 2005 Razor knife. Cut the silicon glue off, pry the black top off without jabbing. Sure you can change it back. Just spin the cog back to the starting point. That's why I tell people to mark it! So we all know where the factory tune was. =)You can play with your ignition timing too if you want. 12mm socket + extension & a timing light is all you need. be sure to put the car in diagnostic mode when you change the timing. That is accomplished by opening the diagnostic's port & bridging TE1 & E1. Factory timing on all Modern Toyota engine's is 10*btdc. Have fun. ← Any ill effects from messing with the airflow meter that you (or anyone?) are aware of? Overheating cat, failed emissions test (yes, we have these in Canada, too!), or ?? Seems like I might be opening a can of worms messing with fuel/air, timing, etc - all the systems on these "modern" engines are so dependent on one another, I have found that it's easy to really screw everything up by purposely putting something else (like timing, fuel mixture, etc) out of spec. I'm much more comfortable with old Detroit iron or '60's sports cars than with newer electronically controlled computer robot-mobiles like my Lexus (even though - I guess it qualifies as old Japanese iron, being 12 years old!).. I'll probably try it anyway, unless somebody out there can talk me out of it. After all - what's the old saying? - "He who hestitates is f****d!!" tck... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysrme Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 This isn't nothing for EFI. It's very simple, no sensor's it doesn't need to run. Very tolernat of changes. That particular engine is stronger from the factory than problably 80% of all stock detroit iron. 95% if you want to compair parts to parts. ;) The car itself is horribly under timed. Someone with a 3vz-fe Camry a few weeks ago was mistified when he only ran a 17s 1/4 mile, having the mods to do it in 15 flat. He ran with his timing @ 25*btdc. That's 15* of baseline advance, with no pinging problems on high-octane. AFA leaning out, it affects the midrange mostly, the high range has a nice gain anytime you really load the engine down, like a flat out top speed run, or climbing a serious hill at high rpm. The differance in the 92-93 185hp 189 lb-ft 3vz-fe, and the 94-97.5 200hp 202lb-ft 3vz-fe is a leaner fuel mixture, and more ignition timing at the horsepower peak. You probably won't find anyone that's done this here, but you can read the thread on TN. About everyone on that that actually did it (half of them 3vz-fe's, half of them i4 3s-fe's) had something good happen. In a nutshell, they leave the factory with a huge amount of timing !Removed!, and way too much fuel. Say mid 12's when it actually needs high 13's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mburnickas Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 I know the dealer messed with you but it is hard to prove they did not change them all. Your word to there’s and you are not gonna win I think. I am not starting a war here but ALL the plugs in my eyes look bad.I change mine every 60K and every other year on my bike (no matter the miles). My bike ones look new when removed but they are cheap in the long run. Plus I do not want performance issues down the road with cheaper colder plugs. I changed to Denco plugs about 30K miles ago in the ES.. They are cheap in my eyes. What is $66 (for Iridium) in the long run???? That is $0.0011 per mile for 60K intervals….You can buy Denso Multi-ground plugs for like $6 each (PK20TR11) , Iridium plug for like $11 each (IK20) or go to NGK Multi-ground plugs (BKR6EKPB-11) for $11.Yes you could put a $2 traditional spark plug in the engine but why would you? I did not spend this amount of money to nickel and dime the parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50trimdsm Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 Everytime I have been to a dealership they leave the old replaced parts in my car... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tckcumming Posted August 5, 2005 Author Share Posted August 5, 2005 I know the dealer messed with you but it is hard to prove they did not change them all. Your word to there’s and you are not gonna win I think. I agree- it's been a long time, about 5 years. I know they did it, though! I WILL rat on them to their Corporate HQ, just for my own satisfaction. I am not starting a war here but ALL the plugs in my eyes look bad.I change mine every 60K and every other year on my bike (no matter the miles). My bike ones look new when removed but they are cheap in the long run. Plus I do not want performance issues down the road with cheaper colder plugs. The Denso plugs in the pic are pretty used up, they have almost exactly 60K miles on them. That's why I took them out, I change them about every 60K as well. They look almost pristine compared to the old NGK plug that was left in there for about 120K miles, tho. I changed to Denco plugs about 30K miles ago in the ES.. They are cheap in my eyes. What is $66 (for Iridium) in the long run???? That is $0.0011 per mile for 60K intervals….You can buy Denso Multi-ground plugs for like $6 each (PK20TR11) , Iridium plug for like $11 each (IK20) or go to NGK Multi-ground plugs (BKR6EKPB-11) for $11.Yes you could put a $2 traditional spark plug in the engine but why would you? I did not spend this amount of money to nickel and dime the parts. True - but just because something costs more doesn't mean it's better. You can't just assume that the higher priced piece is superior. Sometimes you do get what you pay for, sometimes you pay for the hype. I like to be convinced! Case in point - I have a set of Bosch Platinum+4 plugs in my '69 MGB. It runs great with these plugs. I recently put in a new set of Champion copper-core, dead standard (cheap!) spark plugs as a "back-to-back" comparison. It runs just as well, absolutely NO detectable difference. Are the Bosch parts better? Not in this case. Same performance for WAY less money gets my vote!! tck... ← Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mburnickas Posted August 5, 2005 Share Posted August 5, 2005 I agree but most times (if you do your homework) you get what you pay for. Do you want a sharp cheap TV or a Toshiba? Do you want a UGO or a Lexus. Do you want a cheap walmart battery or an optima? Again most times you get what you pay for. You want cheap go to walmart. You want better quality buy OEM for example. And yes there is a differenace from a better quality or just being ripped off. Most times (at least for me), if you start worrying about price, you have bigger problems and should not be shopping. But then I would never put Bosh or Champion in my car nor my bike either. :D ...For me, price is #8 on my list out of 10 things to worry about with my cars/autos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noya Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 You want better quality buy OEM for example. And yes there is a differenace from a better quality or just being ripped off. Most times (at least for me), if you start worrying about price, you have bigger problems and should not be shopping. I'm all for OEM replacement parts, but $66 vs. $12 for spark plugs is quite a difference. Does the ES300 really need Iridium plugs? Is that what comes from the factory? I know my friends 2000 Acura Integra GSR requires them but that engine has 11:1 compression and makes peak power at 7800rpm; a very stressed engine at around 100 horsepower/liter with aftermarket CAI intake and full exhaust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysrme Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 The original plug is a NDenso Platinum. The book calls for platinum tipped replacement plugs. Iridium are great plugs, but you can't use the life span, so it's a huge waste of money. The dealers put in the bare bones NGK BCPR6ES-11, the famous 6779 0.044" gap. Ah-pwetty! No real difference in a base NGK, and a typical cheap plat plug when it comes to life span. No real point in wasting the money! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mburnickas Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 I'm all for OEM replacement parts, but $66 vs. $12 for spark plugs is quite a difference.Does the ES300 really need Iridium plugs? Is that what comes from the factory? I know my friends 2000 Acura Integra GSR requires them but that engine has 11:1 compression and makes peak power at 7800rpm; a very stressed engine at around 100 horsepower/liter with aftermarket CAI intake and full exhaust. ← The ES and most other cars do not need Iridium plugs. It comes down to what you want to buy and performace. Maybe in your app any plug is fine and maybe not. Example, I can buy cheap tires for my es, cheap plugs, cheap wires, cheap belts etc. I can do the same for my GSXR1100. I tried cheap on my bike and well it never worked out and ran like crap. I tried cheap on my wifes car, and that did not work out and spent more in the long run. Not doing it again with my car now. I am sticking with what works for me. $66 is for 6 plugs, even at $12 each (6x12=72) is not a huge delta. You could put in other plugs for $3. Then it would be around $18 to $20. Maybe these are fine and maybe not. I do not know. For me, in drivign 120,000 miles (about 10 to 11 years total on my car) it would cost me about $125 in plugs over this time or these years. I like saving $$$$ here, trust me, but fuel for one month cost more then that. I worry more about my mortgage, G&E, car and tractor payments, daycare, etc..not spark plugs.IN the big picture for me, plugs and the price are so small..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tckcumming Posted August 14, 2005 Author Share Posted August 14, 2005 I worry more about my mortgage, G&E, car and tractor payments, daycare, etc..not spark plugs.IN the big picture for me, plugs and the price are so small.... I agree 100%!!! Spark plugs are about at the bottom of my day-to-day concerns. It's more of "philosophical" question to me. The actual difference in cost is unimportant. In general, I agree that you do have to pay more to get something of quality. But just because something costs more and someone tells you it's "better" doesn't mean it is. I think of it this way. If you want to know what time it is, you can buy a $10000 Movado or a $40 Timex. Is the Movado "better"? Depends. Both do the same job. They will last a long time. Both will be perfectly adequate as timepieces. One makes a WAY bigger impression on others. One makes you feel a whole lot better about purchasing it. If you work on a construction site or in a factory, one is much more suitable for telling you when it's time for your lunch break. Which is better? Your choice. How many people who claim that one spark plug, or tire, or air filter etc. is "better" than another have actually taken the time to personally compare these things? Not many! (me included!). They rely on opinions of others, advertising hype and, yes, price to decide which thing is "better". I hear and read a lot of the "I would never use anything but ... **insert Brand Name here** ... in my vehicle" type of attitude on this and other forums. Please don't misunderstand my comments - I'm the same as everyone else, I do the same thing much of the time. I just like to put a little more thought into these things than most do. Does spending more money on something as mundane as a spark plug for your car make you feel better? Then I say go for it. Whether it makes your engine run better or not. tck... ps. sorry about the rambling reply - it doesn't have much to do with the topic - I really got on a roll! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tckcumming Posted August 14, 2005 Author Share Posted August 14, 2005 The original plug is a NDenso Platinum. The book calls for platinum tipped replacement plugs.Iridium are great plugs, but you can't use the life span, so it's a huge waste of money. The dealers put in the bare bones NGK BCPR6ES-11, the famous 6779 0.044" gap. Ah-pwetty! No real difference in a base NGK, and a typical cheap plat plug when it comes to life span. No real point in wasting the money! ← Compare the plug in your photo with the middle one in the photo at the top of this post. That's what 120000 miles of driving will do if you never change your plugs. If you have over 60000 miles on your car and haven't ever changed spark plugs, do it now!! You will be happy, your engine will run better, peace will reign in your automotive world. tck... ps. The dealers put in the bare bones NGK BCPR6ES-11 the original factory OEM plug in my photo is an NGK BCPR6EP-11 (P for Platinum, maybe??) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snidehockey Posted September 7, 2005 Share Posted September 7, 2005 does the airflow cog change apply to to the 1mz or just the 3? Mines a 94 es Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysrme Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 Not 1mz-fe's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tckcumming Posted September 9, 2005 Author Share Posted September 9, 2005 does the airflow cog change apply to to the 1mz or just the 3? Mines a 94 es ← Glad someone brought this up again... I've been meaning to post an update for a few days, never got around to it. Had a driveability problem under some circumstances after I leaned out the mixture. Seemed great for a couple of weeks, no ill effects at all. Then my son complained of the car "bogging down" (his words) on acceleration when the engine was cold sometimes. I told him to take it easy on the gas pedal when the engine was cold - I figured he was just trying to accelerate too fast before the engine had warmed up enough (I was 17 once, too!). Everything OK after that. But I was out of town for a few days - a great road trip, by the way, around 900 miles in a couple of travel days. I got into the car one morning (warm weather about 80 degrees F, quite humid), started the car & drove off as normal. The engine bogged, the car almost stopped! Let off the gas, it was better. On the gas, bogging very badly. No sputtering or backfiring, no warning lights, nothing to indicate a problem except the car wouldn't go anywhere. I turned around & went back to where I'd started. Popped the hood & took the cover off the airflow meter (glad I left my fancy electrical tape in place & didn't seal it back up yet). Used my little keychain-size multi-tool to move the cog back to the red line I had put on it. (thanks for the tip Toysrme). Started up the car - way better, smooth & back to normal. Since I was far from home I thought I'd better leave it like that & mess with it some more later. It's still back in it's original "factory" state now, I haven't had time to fool with it any more. I never did mess with the timing, maybe that would have helped. The fact that it behaves this way intermittently and not all the time makes me wonder if something is starting to fail or go "out of spec" under some conditions. I've replaced just about everything (plugs, cap rotor, etc.) except the O2 sensors, they are original never changed ('93, around 120,000 miles). Could it be a failing sensor? No CEL or any warnings. Fuel mileage should be better, IMO. As I mentioned before, it's running well now. Any ideas?? tck... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysrme Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 Ya that seems fairly contradictory to what everyone else has experianced. If you put it back, reset the ECU if it starts bogging again & see what happens. How far did you adjust the cog again? o2 sensors are probably on their way out, if not dead @ 120,000m. I lost both mine by 105, just change done a few weeks back. But normally it can figure that out. What you can do is hook a multi-meter up to each one & see how long it takes them to warm up. What kind of mileage is it? I consider 22-25mpg in mixed driving to be normal on a stock car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tckcumming Posted October 10, 2005 Author Share Posted October 10, 2005 posted this by mistake..... see below Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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