Ls430 Vs. Avalon

[tealboy]

Just curious as to your reaction on this subject. Obviously this is a Lexus forum, so I already know what the answer will be but I recently read an article evaluating the newly designed Avalon, which included a comparison to the LS430. The writer comment was, the LS is the best of the best, but they now struggle to justify the $30k premium. In other words, the avalon has existed in the past, but this redesigned model is more appealing and improved, so the writer considered it more comparable to the lexus in looks, size, quality, comfort, quiteness, etc. His parting comment was, unless the badge is important to you, he can not justify the added cost.

I have not seen the avalon yet, but have been looking into buying a used, 2001 430 with 45,000 miles. It will cost $35k. For the same money, I can get a brand new, loaded avalon, with warranty and the new car benefits.

anyway, this is not to create a harsh debate by any means, but i was curious if anyone out there has made this comparison. Personally, the badge definately means something to me, but i don't know which way i will end up going.

[Matthew_McNally]

have a read of this post - Toyota Avalon review, it makes comparisons to the Lexus ES / GS / LS range

:)

[ArmyofOne]

have a read of this post - Toyota Avalon review, it makes comparisons to the Lexus ES / GS / LS range

:)

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the other issue i have with the avalon is, its still FWD. if i get an LS, the fact that its RWD will play a major role.

[skylolow]

I think it becomes a much tougher decision now. My father just bought my mom a new Avalon. I own a 97 LS 400 and the Avalon for sure holds its own now.

I can tell you the Avalon is one nice car now. Really moves well and handles good for such a large car. Has alot of the features the LS430 does for alot less. Really your biggest different is the rear wheel drive. That damn Avalon gets over 30 on the highway. Blows me away with that much h.p. that it has no problem getting you around 32 on avg on the highway. Parents took it on a 300 mile trip and avg. almost 33 a gallon on the highway. Pretty much a solid 10 mpg more then the LS.

Fit and finish of course is one of the best in the industry like most Toyota Corp. products. Keep in mind owning a Lexus is must more prestigous if you care about that. Also service is usually better on a Lexus then a Toyota. But hey neither one usually ever breaks. Avalon will be cheaper to repair on avg. though. If you ask me Toyota is putting there Lexus LS 430(I'll even lump in the ES 330 buyers) into a tough buying decesion with the new Avalon. I compare to the people looking at the Land Cruiser compared to the LX-470. Hard to justify the difference for the price. I had that problem and went with the LC. Been happy ever since and saved a ton.

Tough decison man. Maybe you might want to look at the GS 430 series instead. :)

Much more on the Lexus favor there. Go drive the new Avalon if you haven't yet.

You wouldn't be disappointed that is for sure.

[branshew]

the other issue i have ith the avakin is, its still FWD.  if i get an LS, the fact that its RWD will play a major role.

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Exactly. Also, the Avalon and the LS are completely different. The LS is a larger car with a totally different engine, chassis, suspension, etc. You may find that matching the Avalon to the GS is a better comparison.

I have a customer that is a Toyota Dealer who let me test drive a new Avalon about 2 weeks ago and my dad has a '92 LS430 which I have driven on occasion - there is absolutely NO comparison between the two cars.

[ArmyofOne]

the other issue i have ith the avakin is, its still FWD.  if i get an LS, the fact that its RWD will play a major role.

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Exactly. Also, the Avalon and the LS are completely different. The LS is a larger car with a totally different engine, chassis, suspension, etc. You may find that matching the Avalon to the GS is a better comparison.

I have a customer that is a Toyota Dealer who let me test drive a new Avalon about 2 weeks ago and my dad has a '92 LS430 which I have driven on occasion - there is absolutely NO comparison between the two cars.

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is that a 92 LS400, or an 02 LS430? assuming a typo here :whistles: ;) I dont think the GS is even a fair comparison, the car has mor in common with the ES330/Windom/Camry platform than any other car in the lineup. IIRC the Avalon was originally based off the camry, was it not? I know the avalon is now significantly larger than even the ES, but the previous gen wasnt. it was nearly the same size.

Oops: researched a little more anf found out it replaced the cressida.

More can be read here:

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/t69081.html

[lextildeath]

My username, Lextildeath, says it all. I will be a die hard Lexus owner until the very death of me. A friend of mine, currently with a Z28 asked me what car he should get in a few months: A brand new GS430!!!!!!, a brand new Infinity M45, or a brand new S4. He wants performance to match his Z28, with the added luxuries that a fine sedan will offer. I could not believe he could allow me to hear his other choices after he said A BRAND NEW GS430!!!!!!(I believe that all 6 exclamation points should be included on the rear badging by the way). I gave him so many reasons why the GS430!!!!!! is the best. I did not stop at saying that it is the fastest of the bunch. So, as you can see, LEXUS LEXUS LEXUS. BUT, in this case I would get the 2005 Avalon with 0 miles over a 2001 LS430 with 45k(still low mileage though). It is not like they are made by different companies at all. The Avalon has a brand spanking new fresh look that is very beautiful. The LS has a timeless look that is beautiful. I think the Avalon is a bit quicker. The Avalon has 10 less horsepower but makes up for it by weighing lots less than the LS and it loses less horsepower to the wheels than the LS due to it being front engine and front wheel vs the LS being front engine and rear wheel. The Avalon is the top of the line car in the U.S. with the Toyota badge on it. It does not exactly lack prestige. FWD is better in the snow. Rear wheel typically handles better, but the LS is not really "tuned" to be a sporty handling car. Neither is the Avalon, but with the new chassis, I can see it having a sportiER suspension setup than the LS. Plus the Avalon is 355 pounds lighter so that will help handling also. Both cars have excellent build quality and beautiful, luxurious interiors. The Avalon has a push start button. OOOOOO AHHHHH. Finally, which one is a 280 horsepower beast that gets 22 city mpg/ 31 highway mpg?

[blake918]

I compare to the people looking at the Land Cruiser compared to the LX-470. Hard to justify the difference for the price. I had that problem and went with the LC. Been happy ever since and saved a ton.

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What are dealers knocking off LC's msrp? I looked at one the other day while the dealer(Toyota) was changing my oil, and I was taken back to see a $65k sticker. The LX is not far from the LC's price, fully loaded LX for $68k. I'd have a problem of picking one over the other because they both look so damn good!

The Avalon obviously has tremendous bang for the buck but isn't meant to compete with the LS430! As I see it, it comes down to a few main differences. How important is it to you to have the Lexus name and prestige? The materials in the Avalon won't be up to the LS's, but is that something that will bother you? The LS is a $55k+ car while the Avalon is a $26k+, so some things are going to be lacking in the Avalon. I've had good service experiences with Toyota; they always treat me well(better than some Lex dealers), but they don't give loaners, wash your car when they return it to you, etc. I just saw a black Avalon, and it looked awesome! B) I'd go drive the LS and then drive the Avalon. What option package does the 430 have that you are considering? It'll all come down to your personal preference since both cars are clearly winners!

[monarch]

I agree with branshew, the LS430 is substantially different. Test drive the Avalon and LS430 back to back and then you'll probably realize the Avalon is not up to the standards of the LS430 in characteristics such as ride comfort, quietness and high speed directional stability, aburpt lane changing stability, etc. I also know even my old '91 LS400 is superior to the '06 Avalon in these characteristics.

Next take a look at the richness of the interior materials of the LS430 vs. the Avalon.

The difference is almost like night and day.

The Avalon will feel more nimble and agile than the LS430, but then so would a Camry. Image-wise a young person should feel more at home in an Avalon because the LS430 is more of a old man's car.

[90LS400Lexus]

I clearly remember back in late 1994 when the Avalon was introduced that they (Car & Driver, Motor Trend, etc), was saying it was "Lexus-like", but I am thinking they were referring to the ES). Initially it received very high reviews, but shortly after I remember hearing that the Avalon having numerous complaints of interior rattles- which was very "un-Toyota like". This was about the start of the interior quality decline of most Japanese cars.

I forgot who- I think it was SW03ES, tested a new Avalon (perhaps the link posted above- I have not checked), may be it. Seems like it is a grand car, but a bit "plasticy" on the interior? I also think I read this somewhere.

[SW03ES]

Honestly, I would never buy an Avalon over an LS, I wouldn't buy an Avalon over the ES either. It is a VERY nice car but it is not as solid or refined as a Lexus by any stretch of the imagination, and at least to me thats immediately apparent at the first seating.

The Avalon may steal some ES330 buyers that aren't interested in the presitge of the nameplate but nobody's going to cross shop a brand new LS430 and an Avalon. My quess is 95% of buyers who are capable of shopping for a $70k car and have a desire to buy a $70k car (many people have the capacity but not the desire) won't even know the Avalon exists.

The Avalon may have some of the LS' features, but a Lexus isn't about features. Its about quality, solidity, and luxury feel. The LS is FAR more luxurious than the Avalon. I've found with every other Lexus let alone a Toyota, they all feel like wonderful cars UNTIL you drive an LS. The LS is simply a higher caliber vehicle including my ES which I love, let alone an Avalon.

Also remember that the LS and ES both get redesigned next year and the LS is going upmarket with a new longer wheelbase vehicle in the $80k price range. Any hope the Avalon may have of being legitimate competition for the LS is going to be very short lived.

[lextildeath]

No, the Avalon is not as high in luxury as any Lexus. The LS430, among other Lexuses and few other cars makes me sigh at its beauty. I do not think that Toyota can compare to Lexus. But, in my eyes, I see the Avalon shining economically for short and long term over a 2001 LS430. It has 0 miles on the odometer and gets great gas mileage and is good in snow. True, it is not about gizmos. It is about quality and reliabilty. I thought Toyota and Lexus had the same quality and and reliability. Leather and wood trim and such is a gizmo if you think about it. Don't get me wrong-I would never drive a car with out rich leather and wood trim and everything a Lexus should have, but they are not neccesities. If the new Avalon is low on build quality, then shame on them. But, I guess if you are going for pure econimics, get a Civic. If money is only paper with homely men on it to you, then get the LS, or even the GS, depending on how sporty you are. Both are superior overall to Toyota. I have no clue what kind of person you are. Some more info might help. I hope everyones input helps.

[skylolow]

I compare to the people looking at the Land Cruiser compared to the LX-470. Hard to justify the difference for the price. I had that problem and went with the LC. Been happy ever since and saved a ton.

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What are dealers knocking off LC's msrp? I looked at one the other day while the dealer(Toyota) was changing my oil, and I was taken back to see a $65k sticker. The LX is not far from the LC's price, fully loaded LX for $68k. I'd have a problem of picking one over the other because they both look so damn good!

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Around 4 to 5 grand. Most LX's I saw where around 72K and the LC's around 62k. Plus the new LC's have the more powerful engine in them with better fuel econonmy. Not sure if they have announced yet when the LX's would get the new engine(i haven't seen anything but I know the LC's have had it now for about 4 month or longer).

Back to the org. question getting a 2001 LS or 2006 Avalon. With such a difference in years I would opt for the Avalon. I love my LS but you are dealing with a 5 years difference. But hey in the end I'm sure you be happy with any of them.

Might also want to take into consideration how long you may keep this car???

[Jeff]

At some point, resale value will fall into play and the Lexus will always win this battle. If you purchase the Avalon, what's it worth in a year vs. the LS ?? I'll bet the Avalon drops double the LS in up coming years. If your a long term car owner, this may not bother you, but if you drive a car a couple of years and sell or trade, I think the LS will help keep money in your pocket. This new Avalon may be different, but what I've seen at auctions, the Avalon has a hard time keeping up to even a Camry in resale.

[rvgraham]

I can tell you the Avalon is one nice car now. Really moves well and handles good for such a large car. Has alot of the features the LS430 does for alot less. Really your biggest different is the rear wheel drive. That damn Avalon gets over 30 on the highway. Blows me away with that much h.p. that it has no problem getting you around 32 on avg on the highway. Parents took it on a 300 mile trip and avg. almost 33 a gallon on the highway.

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Don't know what's wrong with your LS, I have a lead foot and get min. 24 mpg in mixed driving (99 LS) and up to 31 mpg on a 240 mile trip once.

I certainly wouldn't trade the world class ride and feel of an LS for anything Toyota branded, and most certainly not a fwd car. No, I haven't driven the newest Avalon, but even if they doubled the qualitative values in terms of feel and response (from the previous generation, which I have driven), it still won't touch the LS for those who are cognoscenti, as the Italians would put it. For those just wanting a Buick with more power and quality, the Avalon might make lots of sense.

Bob

[SW03ES]

Personally I would take a new Avalon over a used LS also, but I just prefer new cars.

If I were capable of buying an LS430 new though, I certainly would not even consider an Avalon.

[Lexusfreak]

Just curious as to your reaction on this subject.  Obviously this is a Lexus forum, so I already know what the answer will be but I recently read an article evaluating the newly designed Avalon, which included a comparison to the LS430.  The writer comment was, the LS is the best of the best, but they now struggle to justify the $30k premium.  In other words, the avalon has existed in the past, but this redesigned model is more appealing and improved, so the writer considered it more comparable to the lexus in looks, size, quality, comfort, quiteness, etc.  His parting comment was, unless the badge is important to you, he can not justify the added cost.

I have not seen the avalon yet, but have been looking into buying a used, 2001 430 with 45,000 miles.  It will cost $35k.  For the same money, I can get a brand new, loaded avalon, with warranty and the new car benefits.

anyway, this is not to create a harsh debate by any means, but i was curious if anyone out there has made this comparison.  Personally, the badge definately means something to me, but i don't know which way i will end up going.

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I don't think one can honestly compare the new Avalon to the LS 430......there not even close to being in the same league or class of car. Both are georgous mind you but totally different animals. B)

[LinuxFan]

The recent review by The Detroit Free Press slammed it for fit and finish.

http://www.freep.com/money/autoreviews/phe...4e_20050324.htm

[Lexusfreak]

The recent review by The Detroit Free Press slammed it for fit and finish.

http://www.freep.com/money/autoreviews/phe...4e_20050324.htm

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Having seen several up close & sitting in them for roughly a half hour each, I would have to respectively disagree with that article. It's probably one of the best values out there for the money, but again, I wouldn't personally compare it or even bring it close to the LS 430. I mean all things being equal, you can practicly but 2 Avalons for the price of 1 LS. ;) B)

[nc211]

Personally, I would take the LS for one main reason "beyond the obvious"....no fly by wire throttle set up! For some reason, Toyota's today all seem to have this throttle set up that nobody seems to like. My dad just picked up a 04' Solaro convertible, loves the car. But he said the exact same thing one of our guys here in the office said about is 05 Camry. "I hate the throttle feel. It's got a split second delay, it's shift happy, and it's very hard to drive smoothly. It delays for a split second, then slams into gear and lurches the car forward." I agree. I've driven lexus loaners "RX and ES" recently and said the same thing. I know Toyota has been issuing new transmission software upgrades to try and fix this, but to no success. I think the new Avalon is a sexy machine, and this is a tough tough choice. But, drive the two and you'll see what I mean. I bet the Avalon is shift happy too, always hunting around for what gear to be in. As for gas milage. My 95 4.0 liter V8 with 98k on the clock gets 26.5 mpg on the highway. My older 01 Nissan Maxima 3.0 liter V6 got 25. Might have said more, but didn't get it. The lexus does much better in mpg than my maxima did. The V8 rarely needs to rev beyond 2,000 rpm. As were the Maxima was in the 2,500-3,200 rpm range for city driving.

But, she could take a turn like a bat out of h*ll. And that was fun!

[Lexusfreak]

The Avalon has a totally new generation automatic transmission which is suppose to eliminate those past years with both Toyota & Lexus tranny shifting issues. Time will tell mind you......but we never experenced that north of the border anyways since our emission regulations are different than in the U.S. which is one of the main reasons that causes the tranny complaints. B)

[nc211]

Not to mention the depreciation SMACK you'll take the second you register the avalon in your name. :chairshot:

At least with the LS, you'll be buying the car and not all that depreciation you'll take on the new avalon. My $28,000 fully loaded 01 Maxima SE couldn't even pull in an offer three years and 44,000 miles later for a penny over $14,200. I just gave it back to the dealership at the end of the lease term. And it was in perfect condition! Not a flaw anywhere.

[Lexusfreak]

Not to mention the depreciation SMACK you'll take the second you register the avalon in your name.  :chairshot:

At least with the LS, you'll be buying the car and not all that depreciation you'll take on the new avalon. My $28,000 fully loaded 01 Maxima SE couldn't even pull in an offer three years and 44,000 miles later for a penny over $14,200. I just gave it back to the dealership at the end of the lease term. And it was in perfect condition! Not a flaw anywhere.

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I took a hit too when I traded my 01 SE (20th A.E.) Maxima on my 01 ES too nc.....I hear ya. If one buys the Avalon 2 - 3 years old mind you, the brunt of the depreciation will have already been eaten buy the previous owner. I personally will never purchase a brand new vehicle ever again......the Maxima was my first & last. B)

[nc211]

Hahaah, me neither! No more brand new cars for me. I'd rather give the money to a three legged hooker to kick me in the boys. It's LS400's for me for a very very long time. Spent so much time reading and learning about this car, I feel like I'm trained for them. I hear a squeek, I know what it is, where it is, how much it costs and how long it will take me to do it. These cars are just perfect, perfect perfect.

[SW03ES]

nc211- The LS has had a drive by wire throttle since 1998. It has the same touchy throttle.