Hyundai Genesis Beats Lexus 350

[SW03ES]

"market share" mean the % of cars vs the rest..so our difference is simply a matter of the interpretation of that term

luxury cars are losing share

that does not mean that luxury car owners are buying cars in other segments as you point out

if one segment is growing less than the others, you are losing share, it is just that simple, the reason doesn't matter to make that statement

perhaps an example:

if there are 1000 cars total in the world with only 2 segments each having a 50% share, if segment A does not grow, and segment B grows 50%, segment B now has 60% of the share..for whatever reason

I think you need to do a little research into how statistics work and how to interpret them.

I can tell you as a businessman who routinely looks at reports pertaining to market share that you aren't correct. Superficially I see where you are coming from, but what I'm trying to tell you is that its not that simple. The data you are looking at can be used to make inferences about market share in the same market segment, so you can see that Toyota and Honda has shrinking market share compared to that of Hyundai, which is growing. However, you cannot use this data to infer that the market share of entire market segments. You can compare them within market segments, but not across market segments, and you cannot compare the comparative share of the market segments themselves with this data.

What you are asserting is that mid market carmakers are TAKING buyers away from luxury carmakers, and theres just nothing in this data that proves that. It shows that mid market carmakers are growing more, but there is no corollary relationship displayed here.

Its like saying Neiman Marcus has sold less, and Kohls has sold more, so Neiman Marcus buyers must be shopping at Kohls. It doesn't mean that at all. They may be shopping at Nordstrom, they may not be shopping at all...

[rob_es350]

"market share" mean the % of cars vs the rest..so our difference is simply a matter of the interpretation of that term

luxury cars are losing share

that does not mean that luxury car owners are buying cars in other segments as you point out

if one segment is growing less than the others, you are losing share, it is just that simple, the reason doesn't matter to make that statement

perhaps an example:

if there are 1000 cars total in the world with only 2 segments each having a 50% share, if segment A does not grow, and segment B grows 50%, segment B now has 60% of the share..for whatever reason

I think you need to do a little research into how statistics work and how to interpret them.

I can tell you as a businessman who routinely looks at reports pertaining to market share that you aren't correct. Superficially I see where you are coming from, but what I'm trying to tell you is that its not that simple. The data you are looking at can be used to make inferences about market share in the same market segment, so you can see that Toyota and Honda has shrinking market share compared to that of Hyundai, which is growing. However, you cannot use this data to infer that the market share of entire market segments. You can compare them within market segments, but not across market segments, and you cannot compare the comparative share of the market segments themselves with this data.

What you are asserting is that mid market carmakers are TAKING buyers away from luxury carmakers, and theres just nothing in this data that proves that. It shows that mid market carmakers are growing more, but there is no corollary relationship displayed here.

Its like saying Neiman Marcus has sold less, and Kohls has sold more, so Neiman Marcus buyers must be shopping at Kohls. It doesn't mean that at all. They may be shopping at Nordstrom, they may not be shopping at all...

no, you do not understand

I already AGREED that slower growing segments, does not necessarily imply buyers have moved...we do not need to dispute something where we both agree, so stop it, please, lol

I am explaining to you the definition of market share, and even provided an example, and you came back making the same point where we did not have a debate

please take a look at my example, or look up the definition of market share..there is nothing superficial about the point I am making

the point I am making is straightforward and correct

the faster growers, are growing share, I mean this is econ 101

the faster growers are increasing their percentage of the overall market

the faster growers are increasing their percentage of the overall market

that is not a typo, I wrote it twice for emphasis

[SW03ES]

no, you do not understand

I already AGREED that slower growing segments, does not necessarily imply buyers have moved...we do not need to dispute something where we both agree, so stop it, please, lol

I am explaining to you the definition of market share, and even provided an example, and you came back making the same point where we did not have a debate

Then you yourself are saying that this data does not support your statement that buyers who otherwise would have bought luxury cars are buying mid market cars.

This is what you said:

decades is a loooong, time...loyalties can fall way quicker than that imo

look, the luxury car market is in trouble from all over..showrooms are empty and sales are horrible

the luxury market is losing share to it's so called "non-luxury" competitors and that trend should continue

So if you are now saying this:

I already AGREED that slower growing segments, does not necessarily imply buyers have moved...

So...what ARE you saying?

the faster growers, are growing share, I mean this is econ 101

the faster growers are increasing their percentage of the overall market

This is the crux of what you don't understand, the mid market auto market and the luxury marked are different markets, with different buyers and demographics. This is why I said superficially I can see where you are drawing this conclusion (although...you said in your post you disagree with your own conclusion so I don't see the purpose of this discussion at all).

You can make a determination of overall automotive market share from this data, but since the mid market and luxury markets are different markets, that determination is meaningless. Ford doesn't compare their share to Mercedes, because they aren't direct competitors...for instance.

[rob_es350]

no, you do not understand

I already AGREED that slower growing segments, does not necessarily imply buyers have moved...we do not need to dispute something where we both agree, so stop it, please, lol

I am explaining to you the definition of market share, and even provided an example, and you came back making the same point where we did not have a debate

Then you yourself are saying that this data does not support your statement that buyers who otherwise would have bought luxury cars are buying mid market cars.

This is what you said:

decades is a loooong, time...loyalties can fall way quicker than that imo

look, the luxury car market is in trouble from all over..showrooms are empty and sales are horrible

the luxury market is losing share to it's so called "non-luxury" competitors and that trend should continue

So if you are now saying this:

I already AGREED that slower growing segments, does not necessarily imply buyers have moved...

So...what ARE you saying?

the faster growers, are growing share, I mean this is econ 101

the faster growers are increasing their percentage of the overall market

This is the crux of what you don't understand, the mid market auto market and the luxury marked are different markets, with different buyers and demographics. This is why I said superficially I can see where you are drawing this conclusion (although...you said in your post you disagree with your own conclusion so I don't see the purpose of this discussion at all).

You can make a determination of overall automotive market share from this data, but since the mid market and luxury markets are different markets, that determination is meaningless. Ford doesn't compare their share to Mercedes, because they aren't direct competitors...for instance.

I backed off the conclusion I posted because the limited data I supplied was too short term to make that determination

however, I disagree confidently that the data is meaningless, and disagree again that only direct competitors matter to car manufacturers

now that we agree(probably always did) with the definition of overall market share, it is a more narrow disagreement on the significance of that data to any one individual segment

of course they care!..way less in the short term as the focus is, as it should be, on the direct competition, but if share continues to grow relative to a particular segment, that segment is going to care in a huge way

think about it in a longer term trend..take it to its illogical, or silly end if the trend continued indefinitely...the segment losing share would be eliminated

that is why segments DO look at other segments for trends that are selling/not selling, and steal, lol, well, borrow, ideas where they can be applied, and avoid other trends where they might prove detrimental to sales

brand identity is not fixed, and can never be taken for granted..one day's joke, is the next day's luxury jackpot

this thread started with the hyundai/lexus debate, which is one example of where we might be seeing change

[pj8708]

As a point of clarification rob, how would you define what makes a luxury car versus a non-luxury car; the definition of the luxury car market segment. This is the point we reach with this discussion every time the Hyundai Genesis comes up. In the end, there is really no hard and fast rule as to what makes a car a luxury car. It is truly all perception. In my perception, a Hyundai would probably not be a luxury car.

Market data shows segments, cells, trends, and share, but it has always been unable to track people's perceptions. What is the luxury market is truly in the eye of the beholder.

[rob_es350]

As a point of clarification rob, how would you define what makes a luxury car versus a non-luxury car; the definition of the luxury car market segment. This is the point we reach with this discussion every time the Hyundai Genesis comes up. In the end, there is really no hard and fast rule as to what makes a car a luxury car. It is truly all perception. In my perception, a Hyundai would probably not be a luxury car.

Market data shows segments, cells, trends, and share, but it has always been unable to track people's perceptions. What is the luxury market is truly in the eye of the beholder.

completely agree that is perception, and agree again that the hyundai would not qualify as "luxury"

seems from the way sales data is broken out, etc., that the industry also agrees

[timzter]

I have been driving my 2010 ES350 for almost 2 years now (got it new), but I must admit I don't *feel* luxury when I drive it or when I look at it. The exterior design of the car does not scream luxury. There is no distinguishing feature that makes it stand out among other cars in its class. My least favorite aspect of the exterior is the view directly facing the back of the car. The "butt" looks small and unflattering. In fact, I prefer the older ES330's "butt" which was more substantial looking. The ES350's profile and front views are OK.

As for the inside of the car, I don't like the look of the sound system. The rounded inverted horseshoe look needs to go. The carpet lining the lower walls of the interior is very cheap looking with a very low pile. You can easily create a mark on the carpet pile by swiping your finger across it. Its yellowish color also does not go with the rest of the interior. If you push your finger into the carpeted "wall" below the gear compartment, it actually buckles and sinks in. It's as though they just wrapped the hollow area with some cheap plastic and slap the cheap carpet over it to hide it. Very disappointing.

The 2010 ES350's ride is smooth especially at highway speeds, but the cheaper wheels that came with it do produce a pretty loud rumble especially if the road surface is just concrete and not asphalt. My old 1994 Infiniti J30 won hands down as far as cabin quietness.

Perhaps the thing that makes me not love my 2010 ES350 is knowing I am just driving a souped-up Camry which IT IS, and knowing that my friends know that as well. That whole "Ooooooh, you're driving a Lexus" is totally not there at all. Totally no brag factor.

While the Hyundai Genesis is not quite there yet, it definitely holds promise to becoming something really great. I love the fancy tail pipes and the overall look of the back of the car.

Maybe I will swap out my ES350 for a used LS460 which fits more to my perception of luxury.

[rob_es350]

I have been driving my 2010 ES350 for almost 2 years now (got it new), but I must admit I don't *feel* luxury when I drive it or when I look at it. The exterior design of the car does not scream luxury. There is no distinguishing feature that makes it stand out among other cars in its class. My least favorite aspect of the exterior is the view directly facing the back of the car. The "butt" looks small and unflattering. In fact, I prefer the older ES330's "butt" which was more substantial looking. The ES350's profile and front views are OK.

As for the inside of the car, I don't like the look of the sound system. The rounded inverted horseshoe look needs to go. The carpet lining the lower walls of the interior is very cheap looking with a very low pile. You create a mark on the carpet pile by swiping your finger across it. Its yellowish color also does not go with the rest of the interior. If you push your finger into the carpeted "wall" below the gear compartment, it actually buckles and sinks in. It's as though they just wrapped the hollow area with some cheap plastic and slap the cheap carpet over it to hide it. Very disappointing.

The 2010 ES350's ride is smooth especially at highway speeds, but the cheaper wheels that came with it do produce a pretty loud rumble especially if the road surface is just concrete and not asphalt. My old 1994 Infiniti J30 won hands down as far as cabin quietness.

Perhaps the thing that makes me not love my 2010 ES350 is knowing I am just driving a souped-up Camry which IT IS, and knowing that my friends know that as well. That whole "Ooooooh, you're driving a Lexus" is totally not there at all. Totally no brag factor.

While the Hyundai Genesis is not quite there yet, it definitely holds promise to becoming something really great. I love the fancy tail pipes and the overall look of the back of the car.

Maybe I will swap my ES350 out for a used LS460 which fits more to my perception of luxury.

wow, someone who has more complaints than me

my complaints though have been with the feel..handling, braking, etc, whereas yours are primary the aesthetics, which I like

[gatoman39]

wow, someone who has more complaints than me

my complaints though have been with the feel..handling, braking, etc, whereas yours are primary the aesthetics, which I like

Those things are largely due to the FWD architecture of the car. A car this big, with this much power is going to fall down if you try and drive it like a BMW. If you drive it like a commuter vehicle, it's totally fine, which is what 99% of people who buy this vehicle do. I like this car, but it's egregiously expensive for what it is.

[pj8708]

I have been driving my 2010 ES350 for almost 2 years now (got it new), but I must admit I don't *feel* luxury when I drive it or when I look at it. The exterior design of the car does not scream luxury. There is no distinguishing feature that makes it stand out among other cars in its class. My least favorite aspect of the exterior is the view directly facing the back of the car. The "butt" looks small and unflattering. In fact, I prefer the older ES330's "butt" which was more substantial looking. The ES350's profile and front views are OK.

As for the inside of the car, I don't like the look of the sound system. The rounded inverted horseshoe look needs to go. The carpet lining the lower walls of the interior is very cheap looking with a very low pile. You can easily create a mark on the carpet pile by swiping your finger across it. Its yellowish color also does not go with the rest of the interior. If you push your finger into the carpeted "wall" below the gear compartment, it actually buckles and sinks in. It's as though they just wrapped the hollow area with some cheap plastic and slap the cheap carpet over it to hide it. Very disappointing.

The 2010 ES350's ride is smooth especially at highway speeds, but the cheaper wheels that came with it do produce a pretty loud rumble especially if the road surface is just concrete and not asphalt. My old 1994 Infiniti J30 won hands down as far as cabin quietness.

Perhaps the thing that makes me not love my 2010 ES350 is knowing I am just driving a souped-up Camry which IT IS, and knowing that my friends know that as well. That whole "Ooooooh, you're driving a Lexus" is totally not there at all. Totally no brag factor.

While the Hyundai Genesis is not quite there yet, it definitely holds promise to becoming something really great. I love the fancy tail pipes and the overall look of the back of the car.

Maybe I will swap out my ES350 for a used LS460 which fits more to my perception of luxury.

Call me crazy, but when I spend $45,000 on something I usually look at it first before I sign the check. Did you see your car or drive it before you bought it? Every single dislike you list for your ES is something one would expect a potential buyer to weed out in the shopping process. All of your dislikes are legitimate, but are also personal preferences; things based on ones personal taste such as color, shape, sound level, etc. It just seems a waste that you would have purchased a car that you truly don't like when there are so many other choices out there.

[timzter]

I have been driving my 2010 ES350 for almost 2 years now (got it new), but I must admit I don't *feel* luxury when I drive it or when I look at it. The exterior design of the car does not scream luxury. There is no distinguishing feature that makes it stand out among other cars in its class. My least favorite aspect of the exterior is the view directly facing the back of the car. The "butt" looks small and unflattering. In fact, I prefer the older ES330's "butt" which was more substantial looking. The ES350's profile and front views are OK.

As for the inside of the car, I don't like the look of the sound system. The rounded inverted horseshoe look needs to go. The carpet lining the lower walls of the interior is very cheap looking with a very low pile. You can easily create a mark on the carpet pile by swiping your finger across it. Its yellowish color also does not go with the rest of the interior. If you push your finger into the carpeted "wall" below the gear compartment, it actually buckles and sinks in. It's as though they just wrapped the hollow area with some cheap plastic and slap the cheap carpet over it to hide it. Very disappointing.

The 2010 ES350's ride is smooth especially at highway speeds, but the cheaper wheels that came with it do produce a pretty loud rumble especially if the road surface is just concrete and not asphalt. My old 1994 Infiniti J30 won hands down as far as cabin quietness.

Perhaps the thing that makes me not love my 2010 ES350 is knowing I am just driving a souped-up Camry which IT IS, and knowing that my friends know that as well. That whole "Ooooooh, you're driving a Lexus" is totally not there at all. Totally no brag factor.

While the Hyundai Genesis is not quite there yet, it definitely holds promise to becoming something really great. I love the fancy tail pipes and the overall look of the back of the car.

Maybe I will swap out my ES350 for a used LS460 which fits more to my perception of luxury.

Call me crazy, but when I spend $45,000 on something I usually look at it first before I sign the check. Did you see your car or drive it before you bought it? Every single dislike you list for your ES is something one would expect a potential buyer to weed out in the shopping process. All of your dislikes are legitimate, but are also personal preferences; things based on ones personal taste such as color, shape, sound level, etc. It just seems a waste that you would have purchased a car that you truly don't like when there are so many other choices out there.

Actually I did shop around before I got my ES. To be honest the ES350 was the best in that price range. I checked out the Audi A4, but the interior felt more like a sports car than a luxury car. They should hire Martha Stewart to dress it up. I also checked out the Infiniti GS35. It drove great. Very solid handling. Felt like it hugged the road when doing sharp turns. But again, it didn't ooze luxury. So the ES350 still came out ahead in terms of the luxury feel, but like I said, it still falls short in my opinion. Perhaps only something like the LS460 or Audi A7 will satisfy me, but alas, it is beyond my reach financially at this time, unless maybe I get a preowned one. So yeah, I admit I am merely *settling* for the ES350.

[rob_es350]

I have been driving my 2010 ES350 for almost 2 years now (got it new), but I must admit I don't *feel* luxury when I drive it or when I look at it. The exterior design of the car does not scream luxury. There is no distinguishing feature that makes it stand out among other cars in its class. My least favorite aspect of the exterior is the view directly facing the back of the car. The "butt" looks small and unflattering. In fact, I prefer the older ES330's "butt" which was more substantial looking. The ES350's profile and front views are OK.

As for the inside of the car, I don't like the look of the sound system. The rounded inverted horseshoe look needs to go. The carpet lining the lower walls of the interior is very cheap looking with a very low pile. You can easily create a mark on the carpet pile by swiping your finger across it. Its yellowish color also does not go with the rest of the interior. If you push your finger into the carpeted "wall" below the gear compartment, it actually buckles and sinks in. It's as though they just wrapped the hollow area with some cheap plastic and slap the cheap carpet over it to hide it. Very disappointing.

The 2010 ES350's ride is smooth especially at highway speeds, but the cheaper wheels that came with it do produce a pretty loud rumble especially if the road surface is just concrete and not asphalt. My old 1994 Infiniti J30 won hands down as far as cabin quietness.

Perhaps the thing that makes me not love my 2010 ES350 is knowing I am just driving a souped-up Camry which IT IS, and knowing that my friends know that as well. That whole "Ooooooh, you're driving a Lexus" is totally not there at all. Totally no brag factor.

While the Hyundai Genesis is not quite there yet, it definitely holds promise to becoming something really great. I love the fancy tail pipes and the overall look of the back of the car.

Maybe I will swap out my ES350 for a used LS460 which fits more to my perception of luxury.

Call me crazy, but when I spend $45,000 on something I usually look at it first before I sign the check. Did you see your car or drive it before you bought it? Every single dislike you list for your ES is something one would expect a potential buyer to weed out in the shopping process. All of your dislikes are legitimate, but are also personal preferences; things based on ones personal taste such as color, shape, sound level, etc. It just seems a waste that you would have purchased a car that you truly don't like when there are so many other choices out there.

must have had a heck of s salesman

[1990LS400]

Actually I did shop around before I got my ES. To be honest the ES350 was the best in that price range. I checked out the Audi A4, but the interior felt more like a sports car than a luxury car. They should hire Martha Stewart to dress it up. I also checked out the Infiniti GS35. It drove great. Very solid handling. Felt like it hugged the road when doing sharp turns. But again, it didn't ooze luxury. So the ES350 still came out ahead in terms of the luxury feel, but like I said, it still falls short in my opinion. Perhaps only something like the LS460 or Audi A7 will satisfy me, but alas, it is beyond my reach financially at this time, unless maybe I get a preowned one. So yeah, I admit I am merely *settling* for the ES350.

I thought that cars in the ES350 price range were usually considered to be "near luxury" or "entry level luxury" cars. Although the differences between the Lexus ES and the Toyota Camry have been increased somewhat over the past ten or so years, they still have much in common and the Camry certainly isn't considered to be a luxury car or even an entry level luxury car. Maybe the ES will be seen in a little different light after the larger Avalon based 2013 ES is introduced.

It really gets down to what you think a luxury car is. To some, the ES is a wonderful luxury car. In some circles, the LS is not considered a luxury car. Just buy what you like and don't worry about labels.

Besides, as I've said before, if a car doesn't have accommodations on the order of what is shown in the attached photos, then it is not a luxury car at all.

[rob_es350]

Actually I did shop around before I got my ES. To be honest the ES350 was the best in that price range. I checked out the Audi A4, but the interior felt more like a sports car than a luxury car. They should hire Martha Stewart to dress it up. I also checked out the Infiniti GS35. It drove great. Very solid handling. Felt like it hugged the road when doing sharp turns. But again, it didn't ooze luxury. So the ES350 still came out ahead in terms of the luxury feel, but like I said, it still falls short in my opinion. Perhaps only something like the LS460 or Audi A7 will satisfy me, but alas, it is beyond my reach financially at this time, unless maybe I get a preowned one. So yeah, I admit I am merely *settling* for the ES350.

I thought that cars in the ES350 price range were usually considered to be "near luxury" or "entry level luxury" cars. Although the differences between the Lexus ES and the Toyota Camry have been increased somewhat over the past ten or so years, they still have much in common and the Camry certainly isn't considered to be a luxury car or even an entry level luxury car. Maybe the ES will be seen in a little different light after the larger Avalon based 2013 ES is introduced.

It really gets down to what you think a luxury car is. To some, the ES is a wonderful luxury car. In some circles, the LS is not considered a luxury car. Just buy what you like and don't worry about labels.

Besides, as I've said before, if a car doesn't have accommodations on the order of what is shown in the attached photos, then it is not a luxury car at all.

lol, good one, pics of limos, eh

[gatoman39]

Actually I did shop around before I got my ES. To be honest the ES350 was the best in that price range. I checked out the Audi A4, but the interior felt more like a sports car than a luxury car. They should hire Martha Stewart to dress it up. I also checked out the Infiniti GS35. It drove great. Very solid handling. Felt like it hugged the road when doing sharp turns. But again, it didn't ooze luxury. So the ES350 still came out ahead in terms of the luxury feel, but like I said, it still falls short in my opinion. Perhaps only something like the LS460 or Audi A7 will satisfy me, but alas, it is beyond my reach financially at this time, unless maybe I get a preowned one. So yeah, I admit I am merely *settling* for the ES350.

What you are describing is a product of RWD or AWD architecture. It has everything to do with the balance, weight, control and general feel of the car. Not so much in a straight line, but in instances like highway on/off ramps, or traffic circles, mountain roads or aggressive driving. Segmenting the drive wheels from the steering gives the car a feeling of stability and balance which translates to a more luxurious driving experience. While the interior and refinement of the ES350 is top notch, it will always be considered as a pseudo luxury vehicle, because of the FWD platform it sits on.

[SW03ES]

I like this car, but it's egregiously expensive for what it is.

Seeing that its Lexus' bestselling car the buying public obviously disagrees. In fact I think the ES is a tremendous value for the money, which is why I've bought two I suppose. I get a *lot* of compliments on the Lexus. My ES stickered at $41k, when you look at the equipment for the money...its a pretty good value.

My favorite vehicle in the Lexus line is still the LS, and I almost bought 3 year old CPO LS's before my '03 ES and my 350. Each time thought I went with the ES mainly because it was new, but I would suggest that you drive a 460 back to back with the ES before deciding to do that. The LS is more car without question, but the differences are pretty subtle nowadays when you aren't switching back between them all the time. I describe it as "When you drive the LS you think "I have to have this car", but then when you get back into the ES you start to think "This is pretty close" and you don't really miss the LS. Before I decided I did that, drove an '07 LS460, and the new ES back to back to back to back.

So...I don't know if I would say theres $25,000 in quantitative difference between them anymore. I prefer the RWD architecture, but as someone else said when you don't push it, its not that apparent and neither the LS or the ES are the type of car you'd feel the need to push.

To Tim, you have to pay to play. You can't be down on the ES for being as you described it the "best in class". Its an entry level luxury car, want $70k refinement? Gotta spend $70k or buy a used one.

[rob_es350]

I like this car, but it's egregiously expensive for what it is.

Seeing that its Lexus' bestselling car the buying public obviously disagrees. In fact I think the ES is a tremendous value for the money, which is why I've bought two I suppose. I get a *lot* of compliments on the Lexus. My ES stickered at $41k, when you look at the equipment for the money...its a pretty good value.

My favorite vehicle in the Lexus line is still the LS, and I almost bought 3 year old CPO LS's before my '03 ES and my 350. Each time thought I went with the ES mainly because it was new, but I would suggest that you drive a 460 back to back with the ES before deciding to do that. The LS is more car without question, but the differences are pretty subtle nowadays when you aren't switching back between them all the time. I describe it as "When you drive the LS you think "I have to have this car", but then when you get back into the ES you start to think "This is pretty close" and you don't really miss the LS. Before I decided I did that, drove an '07 LS460, and the new ES back to back to back to back.

So...I don't know if I would say theres $25,000 in quantitative difference between them anymore. I prefer the RWD architecture, but as someone else said when you don't push it, its not that apparent and neither the LS or the ES are the type of car you'd feel the need to push.

To Tim, you have to pay to play. You can't be down on the ES for being as you described it the "best in class". Its an entry level luxury car, want $70k refinement? Gotta spend $70k or buy a used one.

agree huge..no question that you get a ton for your one with the ES

try loading up a beemer with everything the ES has, o boy

[pj8708]

Actually I did shop around before I got my ES. To be honest the ES350 was the best in that price range. I checked out the Audi A4, but the interior felt more like a sports car than a luxury car. They should hire Martha Stewart to dress it up. I also checked out the Infiniti GS35. It drove great. Very solid handling. Felt like it hugged the road when doing sharp turns. But again, it didn't ooze luxury. So the ES350 still came out ahead in terms of the luxury feel, but like I said, it still falls short in my opinion. Perhaps only something like the LS460 or Audi A7 will satisfy me, but alas, it is beyond my reach financially at this time, unless maybe I get a preowned one. So yeah, I admit I am merely *settling* for the ES350.

I thought that cars in the ES350 price range were usually considered to be "near luxury" or "entry level luxury" cars. Although the differences between the Lexus ES and the Toyota Camry have been increased somewhat over the past ten or so years, they still have much in common and the Camry certainly isn't considered to be a luxury car or even an entry level luxury car. Maybe the ES will be seen in a little different light after the larger Avalon based 2013 ES is introduced.

It really gets down to what you think a luxury car is. To some, the ES is a wonderful luxury car. In some circles, the LS is not considered a luxury car. Just buy what you like and don't worry about labels.

Besides, as I've said before, if a car doesn't have accommodations on the order of what is shown in the attached photos, then it is not a luxury car at all.

I see you finished the modifications on your LS400 Jim!

[1990LS400]

I see you finished the modifications on your LS400 Jim!

Hey Paul, I've been enamored with ultra high-end Mercedes sedans since the 60's. The short wheelbase Grand Mercedes 600 of the 60's and 70's (see attached photo) is my all time favorite ... got to watch the interior being installed in a 600 pullman cabriolet in the Sindelfingen Mercedes plant when I was a kid. They were the Maybach of their day and my idea of what a "luxury car" was and is.

[SW03ES]

try loading up a beemer with everything the ES has, o boy

Its absurd! You have the 3, which is still more than the ES and half the size, you have the 5 which is about the same size as the ES, albeit more car with a RWD drivetrain etc. To equip it like the ES its $60k! The only cars that can even be compared to the ES in equipment for money is the Hyundai Genesis, the Chrysler 300, or the Buick Lacrosse, and none of them have the brand prestige or ownership experience, nor the resale value.

[rob_es350]

try loading up a beemer with everything the ES has, o boy

Its absurd! You have the 3, which is still more than the ES and half the size, you have the 5 which is about the same size as the ES, albeit more car with a RWD drivetrain etc. To equip it like the ES its $60k! The only cars that can even be compared to the ES in equipment for money is the Hyundai Genesis, the Chrysler 300, or the Buick Lacrosse, and none of them have the brand prestige or ownership experience, nor the resale value.

you MISUNDRSTOOD, lol

I was completely agreeing with you that the es is a ton for your money..that is the primary reason I bought it

then I said try and get a comparable beemer with all that stuff, and o boy, meaning price would be way high, exactly as you say, 60k for the 5 series (for equiv size) with the options

and I don't have a beemer, lol, perhaps you are thinking of someone else

[LexBob2]

A little further information relating to the thread title, and just FYI. Here are the top 5 rated "Upscale Sedans" and the Overall Test Scores from the Consumer Reports article: Genesis (92), ES350 (91), Avalon (86), Maxima (83 and Acrua TL (82).

[SW03ES]

you MISUNDRSTOOD, lol

I was completely agreeing with you that the es is a ton for your money..that is the primary reason I bought it

then I said try and get a comparable beemer with all that stuff, and o boy, meaning price would be way high, exactly as you say, 60k for the 5 series (for equiv size) with the options

and I don't have a beemer, lol, perhaps you are thinking of someone else

Actually I was agreeing with your agreement LOL. So...I think we're all in agreement! LOL

[rob_es350]

you MISUNDRSTOOD, lol

I was completely agreeing with you that the es is a ton for your money..that is the primary reason I bought it

then I said try and get a comparable beemer with all that stuff, and o boy, meaning price would be way high, exactly as you say, 60k for the 5 series (for equiv size) with the options

and I don't have a beemer, lol, perhaps you are thinking of someone else

Actually I was agreeing with your agreement LOL. So...I think we're all in agreement! LOL

ok, I just re-read your reply..yeah, we are in total agreement on this one

[LEXIRX330]

For what it's worth I agree too! :)