Required Oil Change Interval With Synthetic?

[Jim Clark]

It will not let me search on the word "oil".

Has Lexus gone to 10k intervals for hybrids when using synthetic? 5k with a good synthetic is ridiculous.

[lemon]

.

[SW03ES]

Lexus specifically recommends that oil change intervals not be extended when using synthetic oil.

[maseace]

I use Mobil 1 and change it at 5,000 mile intervals. Maybe overkill, but I do it myself and it's $23 for 5 quarts at Walmart.

[lenore]

Me too, 5k and using 0-20 Mobile 1

[Jim Clark]

Lexus specifically recommends that oil change intervals not be extended when using synthetic oil.

Most Lexus owners take their cars to the dealer for service, I believe that has something to do with it. With good full synthetics, 10k is perfectly safe, especially in a hybrid. Toyota changed the Prius to 10k intervals with synthetic. When my BMW comes back after an oil change, the clock is always reset to 15k, but I do it at 10k. The oils I've always used in the BMW are very expensive (Amsoil for years and Motul at the last change). I just had the Prius changed with Motul and their 0W20 is $15 per liter. I have a good indy near my house and am going to have all routine maintenance done by them on all my cars, including the ones still under warranty, I'll just bite the bullet on the price of the Motul in the RX. My indy will follow the factory recommended schedule and carefully document everything that was done.

[RX400h]

Don't forget the oil filter. Most oil filters are not designed to hold 10,000+ miles of dirt in them. That is why I'm sticking to a 5000 mile interval, even with synthetic oil. The only way to know for certain whether your filter can go the distance is to have an oil analysis done.

[lemon]

Fram Xtended Guard (the only Fram I would recommend - well built, metal endcaps, wire reinforced media). Also Amsoil (and I'm sure some others) makes high mileage filters. I don't think a UOA will reveal how well the filter is working - I think most particles found in a UOA are too small to be filtered out. A UOA is a better indicator of how well the oil is preventing wear and how much life is left in the oil (and can also show other important things like fuel dilution and antifreeze contamination).

Toyota has approved 10k OCI for some of there vehicle if using the Toyota branded 0w20. Take note of the date of the publication - likely other vehicles have since been changed to 10k OCI.

http://us.lexusownersclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=62695&st=0&p=402168&fromsearch=1entry402168

I've also done a VOA and UOA of the Toyota 0w20 and the results were good.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1811820&nt=2&page=1

[RX400h]

Correct me if I'm wrong but most oil filters, if overloaded with contaminants, will allow oil to bypass filtration to avoid overpressure conditions. If this happens, the oil will indeed contain significantly large particles that could accelerate engine wear.This would certainly be evident in oil testing data.

[Jim Clark]

Don't forget the oil filter. Most oil filters are not designed to hold 10,000+ miles of dirt in them. That is why I'm sticking to a 5000 mile interval, even with synthetic oil. The only way to know for certain whether your filter can go the distance is to have an oil analysis done.

Understood. Amsoil makes filters that are supposed to be designed for 15k+. They offer applications for both the RX and our Prius but neither car has an Amsoil filter installed at this time. They don't have one for the BMW, they offer Mann filters (standard for BMW's but make no claims as to distance on the Mann filters).

I plan to have analyses done on all three cars at their next changes.

Toyota does not recommend a filter change at 5K. Lexus recommends 5k oil changes so it's moot. BMW does not recommend intermediate filter changes and their oil change interval is 15k. I believe the BMW is the only one that you can change the filter without changing the oil, the BMW filter is at the top of the engine, I could be wrong about this, maybe the Toyota and Lexus filters are high enough above the oil pan that they could be changed, albeit with more difficulty than the BMW.

There's nothing wrong with wearing a belt and suspenders (5k synthetic changes), but you might be wasting time and money.

[RX400h]

That's good to know about the extended life filters. My Corvette has an oil life monitor which is much more sophisticated than a miles driven setup. The Corvette's monitor algorythm takes into consideration engine operation length of time, oil temperature data, and other factors. Of course, it assumes all OEM air and oil filters are used.

The maximum length of time between oil changes, regardless of the monitor's oil life remaining percentage is 12 months.

But I agree that synthetic oil may not be finacially justified if changed every 5 months or 5000 miles (in our Lexus vehicles).

[lemon]

Correct me if I'm wrong but most oil filters, if overloaded with contaminants, will allow oil to bypass filtration to avoid overpressure conditions. If this happens, the oil will indeed contain significantly large particles that could accelerate engine wear.This would certainly be evident in oil testing data.

Oil filters go into bypass many times, whether overloaded with contaminants or not. For example, cold starts with thick oil or high revving/high demand situations that cause the oil pressure to exceed the pressure set by the bypass valve will cause the filter to bypass. Bypass doesn't just happen when the filter is overloaded with contaminants.

Also, there would be no way to tell (from a UOA) if the excessive wear was due to the filter being bypassed or some other parameter. Now, you could cut open your filter after x number of miles and see how well the media stood up to the mileage, and thus gauge how long you could leave the filter in service.

[lenore]

I seriously doubt the filter would ever become clogged unless you have major issues with the engine...Filtering fines is what it does...

[SW03ES]

Most Lexus owners take their cars to the dealer for service, I believe that has something to do with it. With good full synthetics, 10k is perfectly safe, especially in a hybrid. Toyota changed the Prius to 10k intervals with synthetic. When my BMW comes back after an oil change, the clock is always reset to 15k, but I do it at 10k. The oils I've always used in the BMW are very expensive (Amsoil for years and Motul at the last change). I just had the Prius changed with Motul and their 0W20 is $15 per liter. I have a good indy near my house and am going to have all routine maintenance done by them on all my cars, including the ones still under warranty, I'll just bite the bullet on the price of the Motul in the RX. My indy will follow the factory recommended schedule and carefully document everything that was done.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just saying that Lexus specifically put out a memo to owners for them to *NOT* increase oil change intervals because they are using synthetic oil. Whatever their motivations for doing that are meaningless, the reason they did it was because they wanted something on record they could use to get out of paying warranty claims.

Personally? I change mine at 5k miles because its pretty cheap to do, and it keeps me within the terms of my warranty without question. Will the car be fine with synthetic and 10k intervals? I'm sure. But...if you ever have some sort of engine seizure or sludge and Toyota can make a case for it being because you went twice as long as they recommended between changes...they absolutely will.

[RX400h]

I seriously doubt the filter would ever become clogged unless you have major issues with the engine...Filtering fines is what it does...

Many "Long life" oil filters have 40-70% more dirt/contaminent-holding capacity. Some of those long-life filters (like Fram Extended Guard) claim that they can last up to 10,000 miles. Now, if that filter can hold 70% more than the average filter, you may be pushing your luck if you think an average oil filter can last 10,000 miles. I suggest that if you do go 10,000 miles between oil changes that you make sure the oil filter you use is at least advertised as a long-life filter.

[SOMEONE ELSE'S GOT MY NAME]

I don't bother telling folks what to do w/ oil any more. I just direct them to the place that ought to know better than anyone.

From the mobile 1 website:

http://www.mobiloil.com/usa-english/motoroil/car_care/askmobil/10000_mile_oil_changes_on_mobil_1.aspx

Question:

Dealer Suggested Going 10,000 Miles Between Oil Changes on Mobil 1

I own a 2007 Nissan 350Z with 21,000 miles. I'm on my 2nd oil change at the dealer at intervals of 3,750 per the owner's manual. I started using Mobil 1 and changed my intervals to 5,000 miles. I spoke with a service manager at a Nissan dealer who told me I could go 10,000 miles. That kinda blew my mind. This is my first newer car. My older ones I always changed at 3 months or 3,000 miles. My question is this -- is the 5,000 mile interval I am using ok and or could I go to 10,000 miles interval? I don't want to discount new technology and just say no since I'm used to going 3 months or 3,000 miles. Also technology has changed, and oils and engines are way better. Let me know what intervals are recommended for Mobil 1 in my 2007 350Z. I live in Houston, Texas

-- Jeff Nathanson, Hockley, TX

Answer:

You can go 10,000 miles between oil drain intervals with Mobil 1. We suggest you follow your owner’s manual recommendation while the vehicle in under the manufacturer's warranty.

so anyway, yea, your conditions may be different ... harsher ... easier ... so oil test, oil wear, etc may vary ... even from season to season. But in simplest terms, if the people who make a living trying to sell you MORE products than you really even need tell you "don't worry about your filter/oil for 10k miles" - well, heck, if that doesn't mean anything, than nothing will.

:)

[SW03ES]

so anyway, yea, your conditions may be different ... harsher ... easier ... so oil test, oil wear, etc may vary ... even from season to season. But in simplest terms, if the people who make a living trying to sell you MORE products than you really even need tell you "don't worry about your filter/oil for 10k miles" - well, heck, if that doesn't mean anything, than nothing will.

:)

But, they also say:

We suggest you follow your owner’s manual recommendation while the vehicle in under the manufacturer's warranty.

And Lexus says, specifically *do not* extend oil change intervals past 5K miles when using synthetic. Thats my only point. Will 10k intervals be fine? I'd guess yes. Will Lexus try and void your warranty if you have a repair and they can blame it on doubling the oil change interval? I KNOW yes.

If you pay $80 a pop for synthetic oil changes, going to a 10k interval within the original 70k warranty saves you $560. Not a tremendous sum, and certainly less than a repair that might arise that could potentially be blamed on longer change intervals. Remember...it doesn't actually have to be because of extended change intervals...they just need to be able to blame it on that.

[RX350lover]

It will not let me search on the word "oil".

Has Lexus gone to 10k intervals for hybrids when using synthetic? 5k with a good synthetic is ridiculous.

If you only use the car for highway, 10K might be acceptable. But if you do at least 50% city driving, 5K is preferrable. I've done oil changes for more than 15 years on all my cars and do it every 6-7K. I noticed that after 5K, the oil seems to degrade a lot faster, accumulates a lot more dirt and retains less of its viscosity. Personally, I wouldn't wait until 10K. It's easier to change the oil than to change the engine ;)

Though the bimmers can wait a lot longer than 10K, based on my friend who has bimmmers.

[RX400h]

I noticed that after 5K, the oil seems to degrade a lot faster, accumulates a lot more dirt and retains less of its viscosity. Personally, I wouldn't wait until 10K. It's easier to change the oil than to change the engine ;)

Though the bimmers can wait a lot longer than 10K, based on my friend who has bimmmers.

Are you referring to synthetic oil? I doubt that synthetic oil degrades after 5000 miles. I still maintain that it is the oil filter that should determine whether your synthetic oil can last 10,000 miles. I have noticed recently that there are now more than a couple of filter manufacturers out there who clearly claim their filters can hold up to 10,000 miles of dirt.

Also, as I mentioned previously, I spoke to a manager at an all-German repair shop who told me he has seen many a Mercedes or BMW come in with heavy sludge buildup. Owners were waiting 15,000 miles (as touted by the manufacturer) before oil changes, not realizing that there's no way that short trip-type drivers can wait that long, given the higher levels of moisture that accumulate in their engines.

[smooth1]

I think it has to do with the materials Lexus chooses to use as sleeve liners. They are really thin in these motors. Oil is asked to perform several duties such as cooling and cleaning as well as lubricating. I'm not a Japanese Lexus engineer, but they only warranty 5k mile intervals. The Mercedes ML I had was 15k miles or once a year according to the warranty. BMW is 10-15k as well. Jeep is 10k.

[lenore]

Funny, remember when the oil change was 7k as touted by manufacturors...Was more a sales pitch than reality...Also remember the bmers generally have a much larger oil capicity which helps the longevity...

[SOMEONE ELSE'S GOT MY NAME]

Like it or not - If your ride is a 2009 or newer - the word from Toyota (Lexus) is official. Yep. They've put it in writing:

I mentioned earlier ... if the DEALER (who fight kicking and screaming to never pay for a warranty if they can blame it on anything else) says you're good to go 10K miles - as well as the synthetic oil manufacturers saying you're good to go ... well then you're spending double the extra money for your own personal comfort.

[SW03ES]

Thats only for 2009+ vehicles with the 0W20 Synthetic from the factory...which is basically only the RX, CT, & HS.

The rest of the lineup still calls for 5k changes, and any RX before 2009 does too...which is what we're talking about here.

Like I said, I'm not questioning whether the car will be fine with 10k changes, I'm saying if you have a warranty failure...and Lexus can blame it on stretched out oil changes...they will.

[lemon]

It will not let me search on the word "oil".

Has Lexus gone to 10k intervals for hybrids when using synthetic? 5k with a good synthetic is ridiculous.

If you only use the car for highway, 10K might be acceptable. But if you do at least 50% city driving, 5K is preferrable. I've done oil changes for more than 15 years on all my cars and do it every 6-7K. I noticed that after 5K, the oil seems to degrade a lot faster, accumulates a lot more dirt and retains less of its viscosity. Personally, I wouldn't wait until 10K. It's easier to change the oil than to change the engine ;)

Though the bimmers can wait a lot longer than 10K, based on my friend who has bimmmers.

How have you noticed this? Have you done a pre and post 5000k UOA where the viscosity, amount of dirt and TAN and TBN numbers were compared? Did these results show TAN and TBN dropping dramatically faster after 5000k? Or is this just an opinion....you 'feel' that the oil just gets worse after 5000k?

[RX350lover]

After my post nine days ago, I realized that the approx. 150 oil changes I've done over the last 15 years are not on Lexus vehicles, so I concluded that my finding might not apply to Lexus. My three non-Lexus cars are European performance vehicles and I drive them very hard.

Another opinion on oil is at the link below. It is worth a read.

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html

P.S. Sorry for taking long to reply, but I had not re-read this thread in many days.