Government Unions

[lenore]

You know I watch the news with Wisconsin and the Government, Teachers, etc and just shake my head. What have we come to when common sense does not prevail. Over half of the United States is broke and overspent, but the unions wont give any consessions for making the real world sacrifices like private enterprise has had to do. Private companies tighten their belts, and cost save, but the government just keeps going on spending. Here in California it is probably worse. They still hire when there is no money, but act like it is their duty to expand, or spend every last dime if it is in their budget which is over what the needs are. When is AMerica going to wake up? We are being destroyed by these socialist groups that have no concept of budget, making a raise on merit, or sacrificing when things are bad. We have substandard education because of Union tenure, and huge bureacracies that supposedly support our kids. But statistics show we are a utter failure....Our family is tied to the union through a job, but we see the light at the end of the tunnel, and it does not look sunny.... I know when I left my Company (XEROX Corporation) all of my benefits have gone to the side. Medical would cost me a minimum of $800 per month, (mind you I was promised free medical for the rest of my life). I know there is a lotof abuse by factors that we cant control, but asking these folks to pay a little for their retirement and medical is not anymore than what most of the Private industry asks of their employees. I believe the UNIONS are destroying this nation, they have driven jobs out of this country, and made being mediocre the norm, instead of creating a true merit system that would weed out the poor performers. They (UNIONS) have done a great deal to protect workers, but not to unlike the rest of the social programs out there have destroyed efficiency, merit, and honor in doing a good job while protecting the cost of the company, government, or tax payer... <_<

[SW03ES]

Oh lordy...here we go...

[lenore]

Oh no, nobody wants to discuss the true failure of our country....Let it be...As for the teachers, and legislature of that state. the ones that arent at their job should be reprimanded.

[1990LS400]

Oh no, nobody wants to discuss the true failure of our country.

True failure? According to my understanding of history, people have been forecasting the failure of the U.S. ad nauseum since the country was founded in 1776. Calm down. The current state of affairs is just another bump in the road and not nearly as serious as some of the bumps of the past.

[pj8708]

In my opinion, the truth NEVER lies in one extreme or the other. You always have a right to your opinion, but not your own set of facts.

I worked for the big "X" during the 70's, here in Iowa in marketing and sales. I had heard in later years that the company had really lost ground. Many people don't know they invented the Ethernet and the first netwoked computers, the Mouse, and other first that they never knew what they had.

Paul

[pj8708]

Oh lordy...here we go...

You gotta read my latest post on "Crazy SOB".

[lenore]

Yes the big X did indeed do those things, I saw the ethernet in 1978 between Palo Alto Research center and Santa Clara. Funny I turned down a Government job paying twice what I was making at the X, thinking that I would be taken care of fairly for my efforts... that is why I am upset with the public employee unions, they are not living in the real world....

[cduluk]

The only thing in this world that's ever guaranteed is our deaths... That and taxes being due on April 15th. From what i hear union jobs are the only things left protecting job securities. I can see why those who aren't members of a union would feel animosity towards those who get the benefits from one. :whistles:

[SW03ES]

That and taxes being due on April 15th.

Taxes are actually due on April 18th this year. Hopefully that doesn't mean the world is coming to an end LOL

From what i hear union jobs are the only things left protecting job securities. I can see why those who aren't members of a union would feel animosity towards those who get the benefits from one. :whistles:

Theres nothing wrong with a union protecting the better interests of a workforce and making sure that its members are taken care of. My Grandfather was a coal miner in West Virginia, he was injured in a cave in when he was in his late 40s and could no longer work. United Mine Workers made sure he was taken care of and my Grandmother was taken care of as long as they both lived. They never had much money, but they could always eat, keep the heat on, and get medical care whenever they needed it. They made sure the mine owners were held accountable for his injuries and that he would be okay.

The issue is that a lot of these unions have lost sight of reality IMHO. They hold companies hostage until they meet their demands and oftentimes their demands are so unreasonable that over time they wind up destroying the very companies their members work for. The US Auto Industry is a great example of this...airlines...

There's a fine line between making sure that workers aren't taken advantage of, and providing workers with a mechanism to take advantage of their employers. The US simply cannot compete if we have to pay someone $40 an hour to put fenders on cars...and then force them to allow those workers to retire at 55 and continue to be paid until they die...and their spouses to be paid until they die...

Its a tough issue...you can see both sides of it...

[pj8708]

I agree with you 100% Steve. The answer is not in one extreme or the other.

As far as Wisconsin state employees, or my state employees, the reality of the times require those employees to begin paying a portion of their health insurance premiums and take a reduction in wages as the rest of the private sector has done. However, does the state have the right to simply dissolve a contract with those same employees and dictate those changes without negotiating in good faith? In my opinion the Governor is wrong.

Paul

PS: SW, re; your experience with the Ford salesman, read the last post I put at Crazy SOB.

[LEXIRX330]

The only thing in this world that's ever guaranteed is our deaths... That and taxes being due on April 15th. From what i hear union jobs are the only things left protecting job securities. I can see why those who aren't members of a union would feel animosity towards those who get the benefits from one. :whistles:

I have tried not to respond to this thread! Ok here goes...as SW put the unions in some cases are making it so the companies simply can not compete. Unions have certainly helped many people over the years but I think that their time has passed. Locally we just had a major chicken plant layoff their chicken catchers...they are now going to outsource those jobs. Guess what their union is up in arms...but IMHO it is the unions fault they are all losing their jobs anyway. The company had problems over and over with people not showing up, showing up late, using drugs...union protected them. On top of that a few years ago the union staged a strike for better wages...guess what these guys are making 45k a year! To catch chickens...now don't get me wrong I don't want to do it but a little background my grandfather had a farm that I helped him run when I was in high school through college. So I am not to good to do the work but I simply don't have to do it. But when I hear about unions, and teachers pay, not wanting to contribute or contribut more for health insurance or their retirement it DRIVES me nuts! Both of my parents have retired Dad from federal and mom from state. I give them a hard time and tell them it must be nice to just sit back and get a check. (I do know they worked 30 years and paid taxes too) My point is on the private sector you don't see pensions plans or retirement plans like this. We are expected to save on our own, however the unions seem to have this crazy idea that they can continue to offer these plans the same forever. I would love to know how many people that work for a private company...have not seen the cost of health insurance shifted more to the employee in the last 5-10 year...I bet 90%...of companies have! They have had to. But it is a crime for the teachers, or government employees to have to pay more or have a lesser plan. My wife is a nurse and she has considered joining the union and there truly are loads of benefits the union offers so I am not saying it is all bad. I could keep on but my fingers hurt.

[pj8708]

The only thing in this world that's ever guaranteed is our deaths... That and taxes being due on April 15th. From what i hear union jobs are the only things left protecting job securities. I can see why those who aren't members of a union would feel animosity towards those who get the benefits from one. :whistles:

I have tried not to respond to this thread! Ok here goes...as SW put the unions in some cases are making it so the companies simply can not compete. Unions have certainly helped many people over the years but I think that their time has passed. Locally we just had a major chicken plant layoff their chicken catchers...they are now going to outsource those jobs. Guess what their union is up in arms...but IMHO it is the unions fault they are all losing their jobs anyway. The company had problems over and over with people not showing up, showing up late, using drugs...union protected them. On top of that a few years ago the union staged a strike for better wages...guess what these guys are making 45k a year! To catch chickens...now don't get me wrong I don't want to do it but a little background my grandfather had a farm that I helped him run when I was in high school through college. So I am not to good to do the work but I simply don't have to do it. But when I hear about unions, and teachers pay, not wanting to contribute or contribut more for health insurance or their retirement it DRIVES me nuts! Both of my parents have retired Dad from federal and mom from state. I give them a hard time and tell them it must be nice to just sit back and get a check. (I do know they worked 30 years and paid taxes too) My point is on the private sector you don't see pensions plans or retirement plans like this. We are expected to save on our own, however the unions seem to have this crazy idea that they can continue to offer these plans the same forever. I would love to know how many people that work for a private company...have not seen the cost of health insurance shifted more to the employee in the last 5-10 year...I bet 90%...of companies have! They have had to. But it is a crime for the teachers, or government employees to have to pay more or have a lesser plan. My wife is a nurse and she has considered joining the union and there truly are loads of benefits the union offers so I am not saying it is all bad. I could keep on but my fingers hurt.

My wife is a RN of 30 years and now is the administrator of her own hospital. Don't get me started on nurse's unions. LOL

[LEXIRX330]

My wife is a RN of 30 years and now is the administrator of her own hospital. Don't get me started on nurse's unions. LOL

OR Nurses either! LOL

[LEXIRX330]

My wife is a RN of 30 years and now is the administrator of her own hospital. Don't get me started on nurse's unions. LOL

OR Nurses either! LOL

By the way Paul my wife is also a RN...she used to work in the CCU/ICU in the hospital for 4 years...she is now a school nurse. Big change of pace but it works well with our kids, and she loves the little ones at the school she takes care of...parents I think may be a different story sometime! :)

So are you lectured about your blood pressure, cholesterol, and everything on god's green earth...I told her don't worry if I die she will have millions from the life insurance to spend on her next man...

[pj8708]

My wife is a RN of 30 years and now is the administrator of her own hospital. Don't get me started on nurse's unions. LOL

OR Nurses either! LOL

By the way Paul my wife is also a RN...she used to work in the CCU/ICU in the hospital for 4 years...she is now a school nurse. Big change of pace but it works well with our kids, and she loves the little ones at the school she takes care of...parents I think may be a different story sometime! :)

So are you lectured about your blood pressure, cholesterol, and everything on god's green earth...I told her don't worry if I die she will have millions from the life insurance to spend on her next man...

She has given up on lectures. Now it's just nasty looks when I order cheeseburgers and fries. She spent several years in med/surg nursing and really still has nursing as her first love.

I figure when you die wouldn't you rather do it on a full stomach?

[SW03ES]

I saw your post on the other thread Paul LOL...this guy was way uglier than those 3!

[nc211]

Unions, at one time in our history, were the backbone of our nation. That time has passed. Now, their benefits to the overall health of the employment sector they are specifically focused on, is much more selective. For instance, I'm OK with unionized school teachers and nurses. Why? Because I believe they serve a very crucial and critical role in our country, and I think it needs the ability to protect itself. You listen and negotiate with them. They provide a service. But other areas, like the UAW, who provide a product, you simply tie their nuts to the bottom line of the P/L statement, and of they don't comply, then shut down the system and publically blame the union. I use to be a Teamster in a precious life. I witnessed first hand what poison pills a union can be if placed in the wrong pocket of the economy. The unions arrived on the movie sets in NC in the late 90's when the studio sold to NY based Screen Gems. A lot of promises, a lot of industry destruction delivered to the community.

Sadly though, what we're seeing in WI is just the tip of the iceberg for the next several years in this country. I've been reviewing a ton of annual economic data these past few weeks, this time of year always produces the most. I can tell you, with absolute certainty, the number one issue we'll face in this recession, is starting to hit now. States and local government deficits have the very scary possibility to make the housing bust 2 years ago look pretty tame. We're not talking about values of certain areas of town taking hits, but entire towns now. Values based in declining schools, declining social services, declining infrastructure. I'm in the dead center of it all here in Illinois. In the past, counties have files 13. Orange County in CA, Jefferson County in Alabama flirting with it now "Birmingham", and a few others. We're now looking at the possibility of entire states going 13, two specifically with CA and IL. The domino effect of just one going down could be monumental to the nations credit stance on a global scale. Best move I've made during these challenging 3 years was the secisin to rent instead of buy our home here in Chitcago.

We're probably going to see more of what we're seeing now in WI this year. The guy you all should be jealous over, is the guy who keeps threatening to buy an LS, but stays with the ES. He lives in the only pocket of prosperity right now in the country. In fact, his town just registered a 9% increase in home values for 2010! Only one on the country. He knows who he is!! In this same town, within the past three weeks, I have receives over $1 billion dollars in serious and worthy financing requests for trophy quality commercial real estate, more than at anytime ever. This place is building luxury high rise apartments now, next door to projects that delivered in 2009 "the teeth of the recession" that are still leasing up! That, takes balls.

Mr. Mystery Man, is sittin purdy right 'bout now!

[nc211]

This auto correct thing on my iPod drives me nuts... Sorry for they typos!

[LEXIRX330]

The guy you all should be jealous over, is the guy who keeps threatening to buy an LS, but stays with the ES. He lives in the only pocket of prosperity right now in the country. In fact, his town just registered a 9% increase in home values for 2010! Only one on the country. He knows who he is!! In this same town, within the past three weeks, I have receives over $1 billion dollars in serious and worthy financing requests for trophy quality commercial real estate, more than at anytime ever. This place is building luxury high rise apartments now, next door to projects that delivered in 2009 "the teeth of the recession" that are still leasing up! That, takes balls.

Mr. Mystery Man, is sittin purdy right 'bout now!

Who..who? SW?:)

[SW03ES]

We're probably going to see more of what we're seeing now in WI this year. The guy you all should be jealous over, is the guy who keeps threatening to buy an LS, but stays with the ES. He lives in the only pocket of prosperity right now in the country. In fact, his town just registered a 9% increase in home values for 2010! Only one on the country. He knows who he is!! In this same town, within the past three weeks, I have receives over $1 billion dollars in serious and worthy financing requests for trophy quality commercial real estate, more than at anytime ever. This place is building luxury high rise apartments now, next door to projects that delivered in 2009 "the teeth of the recession" that are still leasing up! That, takes balls.

Mr. Mystery Man, is sittin purdy right 'bout now!

But NC...its because of this recession I've had to skip the LS this time and make do with a lowly ES.

Pity me! LOL

I tell customers I meet this all the time...we know nothing in the DC area about the hardships of the recession...

You wrote all that on an iPod? I'm impressed!

[1990LS400]

I tell customers I meet this all the time...we know nothing in the DC area about the hardships of the recession...

There was an interesting segment on NPR (likely Lenore's favorite radio network ... :whistles: ) about cities in the past few days that mentioned the increasing gentrification of D.C., it's plummeting minority population, and the movement of minorities to less expensive housing in the suburbs around D.C. The segment also included a brief interview with a man living in a Brooklyn NY house that his parents bought in 1970 for around $70,000 and which has a current valuation of about $2,000,000.

The thrust of the segment and other similar recent news reports is that many larger cities, particularly central parts of cities, have done much better over the past several decades and are doing much better in this recession than suburbs and rural areas.

Maybe U.S. cities will become more like some European cities I've visited (Paris is a notable example) where the affluent live in the inner city and the less affluent and poor live in the suburbs.

[SW03ES]

Oh we have definitely seen a resurgence of wealthier people wanting to live in the city, and in parts of the city that those same people would have been afraid to drive through 10 years ago. People like a walkable downtown type feeling. You see it out in the 'burbs too, all of the new developments being built (not many where I live because Montgomery County is pretty completely developed), but out in VA, Frederick, MD and PG County, MD are PUDs, or "Planned Urban Developments". The residential housing is designed around a commercial central hub giving the feeling of a downtown atmosphere. These are getting more and more urban feeling too, theres one development going up in Gaithersburg that is going to be pretty dense as opposed to mostly townhomes and single family homes like the development where I live...

[pj8708]

I wish I could say the same for Iowa or the Midwest in general. As you may have seen last fall on "60 Minutes", the town of Newton, Ia, the former home of Maytag, was featured. This community, like hundreds of others, has literally begun to disappear during this "Great?" recession. The Midwest, rural towns in general, are shrinking do to flight to urban areas because that is were the jobs are. A farmer with a few hundred acres can no longer afford a half million dollar combine or feed a 150 cattle at $ 100,000 until ready for market. A young couple wanting to start farming today must be able to borrow enough capital to farm at least 8-10 thousand acres ( @$6,200 an acre) in order to cash flow the business. Who in their right mind is going to lend a twenty something couple enough money to do that.

It use to be that many of these small towns had manufacturing plants that took good advantage of farmers with knowledge of machinery and wanted some steady pay (farming,IMO, is the all time crap shoot) and health insurance. Iowa lost Union Carbide, Rubbermaid, Caterpillar, Maytag,Goggle, Pella Windows just to name a few. Now the farms are being consolidated by out of state and in state agribusiness corps. that have the resources to "Plow" 20-30 thousand acres. Corporations like Tyson, Con Agra, Monsanto et.al.

Is this necessarily bad? It hasn't saved the state from financial disaster and state employee mandated cuts, or massive debt. I'm just stating the obvious that the country has been impacted unevenly and for those who have not been affected as much we should be Glad.

What I fear is that those who live in DC, our Reps. and Senators, are insulated from the real world and can only see their next election fund growing or shrinking. Do you folks remember during the November elections that EVERY one was promising JOBS? Jobs, Jobs, Jobs, Has anyone heard any of them say a peep about jobs now? Now it's abortion, or who said what about a tax, and who can screw the budget committee process.

My next door neighbor works with municipalities and school districts arranging bond issues. Over the past two years he has talked about how difficult it has become to work with the financial soundness of these organizations. This last six moths he has said that he fears were headed for a massive collapse of these entities.

My point is that we are so interconnected in this country and this world that when you sneeze, you'll catch the cold on the other side of the planet. Whatever happens in Wisconsin or DC will eventually effect all of us. Therefore be kind on your way through town, you may have to turn around and go back someday.

Paul

Way long I know.