SW03ES Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 From someone who drives a foreign car... Almost all Japanese cars are made here anymore anyways... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcrome04 Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 Yes yes! I will admit I'd love to buy an American car! New Taurus SHO to be specific lol. Not too shabby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
93LSOwner Posted August 16, 2009 Author Share Posted August 16, 2009 I think it should have been specified to American brands. What better way to help AMERICAs economy! :D For your kind information, 2009 Honda Civic: 60% Parts manufactured in USA/Canada 40% Parts manufactured in Japan Engine manufactured in: USA Transmission manufactured in: Japan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW03ES Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 And the effect on America's carmakers is definately positive already. Ford had to increase production 18% and reopen two plants they had closed to meet demand because of the CARS program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
90LS400Lexus Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Almost all Japanese cars are made here anymore anyways... True, true and unfortunately some exhibit that in lower quality that the 80s-90s models that were made in Japan... or that has at least been my experience with the older Camrys/versus newer ones. I was displeased with the 2009 Avalon (400 miles) and 2009 Camry (31K miles) I have rented... no where near the quality of my older Camrys/Cressidas I owned in the past. The new Lexus' dont seem to have been effected though... thank goodness! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
90LS400Lexus Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 I like the concept and if it werent for the fact of the cars engines deliberately being destroyed and then the cars crushed, I would have done it. I would have traded the LS400 on a new Toyota Tacoma, but no matter how frustrated I have been at my aging LS, I could not do it. It would be like shooting a pet. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
93LSOwner Posted August 17, 2009 Author Share Posted August 17, 2009 I like the concept and if it werent for the fact of the cars engines deliberately being destroyed and then the cars crushed, I would have done it. I would have traded the LS400 on a new Toyota Tacoma, but no matter how frustrated I have been at my aging LS, I could not do it. It would be like shooting a pet. :( I have been out of the loop with LOC for over four years now. I was under the impression that you sold your LS and bought a cream colored Mercedes Benz, and the girl who bought your car wrecked it. Or am I thinking of someone else? You have to put your emotions aside and make a financially sound decision. The styling of the new Tundra puts American "bad !Removed!" trucks to shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amcdonal86 Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 I would have taken advantage of the CARS system in your situation, too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nc211 Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 93', excellent buy! You made the right choice by a mile! TexusLexus, you're on deck! Look, at the end of the day, no matter how much we love our Lexus vehicles, only one solid conclusion will be made....they're just cars. They wear out. They all have the same final chapter at some point, which is failure and worthlessness. Don't get me wrong, I'm a Lexus nuthead too. But if you think I'm ever going to spend the kind of money I spent restoring my old 95' LS again...you're crazy! I got rid of it because of another car, our former Mazda 3GT. When we traded in my wife's beat up Honda Civic for the Mazda, I loved it! But my wife was not comfortable driving the LS, and wouldn't let me drive the Mazda. So, it became a car that she didn't mind driving every now and then, the 4Runner. We had a child, and the 4runner became the family machine, and I got the Mazda. I'd still have the Mazda, if we weren't living in a gigantic pothole of a town now. I refused to maintain a $20k payment on a new car that rode like a go cart, and would have been eaten alive by the road salt up here. So, it became the GS. But, I didn't a buy a $12k Lexus. I bought a $12k car that just so happened to be a Lexus. All I wanted was a softer ride from a car that can take this kind of environment in stride. Same principles applied by 93', and under consideration by TexusLexus. Are you happy with what you're paying for. If it's not a car payment, then it's probably maintence bills. Which one are you more comfortable with. The CARS program is the people's "stimulus", which is working perfectly. Infact, it should serve as another beacon of recovery in this recession. $1b was meant to last to November, but instead only lasted like 10 days. If that doesn't show you the overwhelming demand for the ice to break from the general public, then nothing will. Another example: the bond market. Two weeks ago, a public REIT issued $250,000,000 of unsecured bonds in the market, with a coupon of approx 6.5%. This was a first in nearly two years! They were OVERWHELMED by the response they got, as the offereing was oversubscribed within a 45 minute window of time, that they had to double the offer. It went out the door in about the same amount of time. NO doubt in my mind though, the CARS program has some elements of abuse going on. You can't toss $3b on the street and not expect someone to figure out a way to scam their share. The type of car maker doesn't matter anymore. The goal of all of this "stimulus" activity is one thing, and one thing only.....get the dollars exchanging hands again. Get it flowing through the system. That's our backbone, our entire financial system. We're a consumer based economic society. We stop consuming....and we're toast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasLexus94 Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 And NC211 wins again! The day he writes about Cash for Clunkers, the A/C broke again in my beloved 94LS. I went and recharged the R134A, as I did last Fall, but this time, after working perfectly for 2-1/2 months in the God awful Las Vegas heat, it didn't work. Damn. So I guess it's C for C time. I am still amused about the program, however, since I know the stealers are listing the cars at retail, and then applying the C for C money. Since I think after the program ends, sales will fall off a cliff, I think I could easily get more than $4,500 off the list with my wounded trade and incentives. So I'm thinking about using the LS as a Winter car, and trading it in late Spring. Sadly, I love the ride of the LS, but you can only beat the mule so many times. 122,000 miles. Woe is me..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bali26 Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 NC has some good points and is right about comparing repair bills and new car payments. I'll be the first to sell off my car, even to junkyard, if repairs got economically unreasonable. My LS is just a good car till now and i'm happy with it so far. Changed a few parts, nothing major. What i'm saying is going out and buying a new car when you don't really need it is just foolish. And killing a good running engine is just wrong. Some points to think about regarding CforC program: * You can't just take your old car to be destroyed and get 4.5K without buying a new car. Not even 1k. What if I wanna go "green" and take up cycling to work? * You don't just get a cheque from the government directly to you, and then just make your own deal with the dealer. The first question the dealer will ask you when you go in is if you are going to use the cfc program and they will negotiate from there. * You don't have to buy a more fuel efficient car than your old one. Think about it. You old car can be running great AND be more fuel efficient and still be destroyed! * Would people still be as excited about this is if Ford or Toyota announced "Minimum 4.5k trade-in for you old car when you buy a new car. Some conditions apply see dealer for details" (sound familiar?) Why not? its the exact same thing. There's money changing hands all right, and this scheme is genius, no doubt. Just more of the same. All about squeezing every last dollar possible. Take up a $300/mo car payment plus full coverage insurance to help out the "economy"? No thanks I see this concept being applied to other areas soon, judging from its success. I saw an ad somewhere for $1 off the new tube lightbulb if you bought in the old filament light bulb. Homes, TVs, Furniture, cellphones.. as long as its a government rebate. All about being green these days, i mean dollar green. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
93LSOwner Posted August 17, 2009 Author Share Posted August 17, 2009 What i'm saying is going out and buying a new car when you don't really need it is just foolish. And killing a good running engine is just wrong. Engine and transmission are not the only parts of a vehicle. * You can't just take your old car to be destroyed and get 4.5K without buying a new car. What if I wanna go "green" and take up cycling to work? Doing so will defeat the purpose of the program, which is to boost the economy. * You don't just get a check from the government directly to you, and then just make your own deal with the dealer. The first question the dealer will ask you when you go in is if you are going to use the cfc program and they will negotiate from there. If your drivable vehicle is worth $400, what more can you ask for than $4500 in addition to dealers incentives. That's why you shop around. Here is an example: http://www.ilderton.com/new-inventory/inde...nventoryListing * You don't have to buy a more fuel efficient car than your old one. Actually, you HAVE to buy a vehicle with higher MPG than your clunker in order to receive the $3500 or $4500, depending upon MPG increase. Think about it. You old car can be running great AND be more fuel efficient and still be destroyed! In order to qualify, the clunker has to at least get 18MPG combined (city & highway). Lexus LS400 with exactly 18MPG combined with Premium fuel is NOT fuel efficient. * Would people still be as excited about this is Ford or Toyota announced "Minimum 4.5k trade-in for you old car when you buy a new car. Certain conditions apply see dealer for details" (sound familiar?) Why not? its the exact same thing. Yes it is, if they also added "we mean $4500 for ANY PIECE of $hit that has four wheels and can drive itself up to 1 MPH, as long as you drive that sack of $hit into our parking lot we'll take it" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nc211 Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 * Would people still be as excited about this is if Ford or Toyota announced "Minimum 4.5k trade-in for you old car when you buy a new car. Some conditions apply see dealer for details" (sound familiar?) Why not? its the exact same thing. There's money changing hands all right, and this scheme is genius, no doubt. Just more of the same. All about squeezing every last dollar possible. Take up a $300/mo car payment plus full coverage insurance to help out the "economy"? No thanks Bali, I would be even MORE excited if Ford, Toyota, John Deer, Yahmaha, hell even Schwinn came out and could offer anything somewhat similar to that kind of offer! Not because I believe it 100%, but because it shows they have the ability to "deal" like that. This is the problem, and the reason for the sucess of the Clunkers program. The government is giving the dealers a tool to use that normally is only available when times are good. I hear you about the $300/month payment and such. But, divide $3,600 by 12. Now, think for a second...how many threads on here have you seen about repairs on these older LS's that total that amount over the course of a 12 month period? More than you think. While many come on here to praise their cars, don't forget what the main cause is that has most of us on here to begin with.....a problem that we're hoping has a much cheaper solution to. Starter goes out...$1,800 of mostly labor charges. Timing belt service...$1,000 average. Driveshaft..$1,000 average. Strut rods...$500...mounts here, bushings there, dash lights, and god help ya' if your ecu is bad "mine was, cost $3,800 alone - dealer ate it though, luckily". If you ask me, I'd rather pay another $500-$700 a year in a slightly higher payment for a new car with a warranty and not have to worry about this stuff, and all the time it takes to address. But, that's the personal decision each has to make on their own. It's like you said: you'd trade yours in a heart beat if it started to break down on you. The gamble is, when it does break down on you, will it be a break that you will have to fix inorder to sell it, which will wipe out your profit on it anyway. After 18 years of service, one can only conclude that if you haven't been hit by the big stuff yet....odds are you will in future. In general, I will say this though....that tin can Mazda we had, on a nice blacktop road....was quieter than my LS was at 80mph. In the LS, I could hear the faint hum of the engine. But, in the Mazda...I couldn't hear the engine at all. However, get it concrete, and you'd go def from the road noise! I drove it down to the coast of NC quite a few times, same route I took in the LS several times as well. I always arrived at the beach in the Mazda feeling less fatigued than in the LS. That's no BS either...that's what 12 years of evolution in automobile design offers you. Things are "studied" differently now, and it works! If I were in the position Texas and 93' are/were in, that LS would be out of my garage yesterday for something new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bali26 Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 93, So if PS fluid is leaking and alternator dies, we should seize the engine, so no one car make use of the car again? Thats not right. My bad about trade in fuel economy rating because some i know did just that but its because it a "work truck" and it doesn't need to be more fuel efficient. Regular cars have to be 5 to 10 higher and SUVs can be 2 to 5 higher. But thats not much and pretty much covers all similar cars. My point was not to scrap good running cars which just need a little TLC. To each his own, not everyone can repair their own cars and dealing with mechanics is a pain in the !Removed!. I don't. And "helping the economy" part is a whole another debate depending on what you mean by economy and which way the money is flowing, and who gets helped first and who gets the leftovers. Cheers :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bali26 Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 The government is giving the dealers a tool to use that normally is only available when times are good. I think its not so simple. When money is made, people need to be paid off if you know what i mean. What i'm saying is that the decision to buy a new car shouldn't be based on CfC program. When your car gets old, you buy a new one. New car are better designed, of course. I personally would buy a good used car, not new. To each his own... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intellivised Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Listening to all this back and forth on this forum and several other sites/blogs has been fascinating especially as I have an LS400 that could be sent off tomorrow. I have so many compelling reasons to ditch the thing: - My car is at about 150K. The water pump and the starter are ticking time bombs. - It's eligible for CARS. - There are a ton of little things wrong with the car that really aren't a big deal (seat leather tearing, A/C doesn't blow cold, window motors are starting to fade) and I'm actually enjoying fixing them but it's nickel and diming me. I'm also doing this during the *very* short summer here and getting a false impression. Ask me sometime about when I had to disassemble my Lexus's passenger side door when the mercury was sitting at -30 and my garage was at -10. However! I have just as many compelling reasons to keep the thing. - I live a mile! from work. I don't leave town that much in the fall and winter because often it's crazy to do so. Renting a car for a day or taking the bus to Denver International is way cheaper than sinking $20K+ into a new vehicle. Pitching in for gas when my friends head down to wherever is cheaper. In fact, I'd be willing to wager that most of my friends owe me favors anyway, so I could always cash in. I really am not put out much when my car is out of the count. Even on the worst of Wyoming winter days I can put on a parka and trudge it up to my job. 9 times out of 10 small town rules kick in and someone from my building picks me up anyway. - Even with lower car payments associated with an economy car you need to factor that anything you buy will rapidly decline in value, has a higher cost to insure, etc. vs. 'make once' repairs. And eventually... that new car will be an old car. When my starter goes it'll be fixed once and done. Same with the pump. My PS system is fixed. My upper control arms are brand new. I have poly bushings on it. Timing belt is done. All that money would be a wash if I scrapped it; according to what I've been told by Lexus mechanics, independent sites, etc. I'm only halfway through the usable life of my powerplant that is filled with forged and not cast parts. If the timing of CARS was different then maybe I'd feel different. Like if this happened the week before I ordered my control arms. I'd like to extract the value of the work I've already done BEFORE I get rid of the car. If I have to miss out on incentives, oh well. I've stopped the upgrade train, but I'm still taking care of it. - Right now the Lexus costs me nothing in monthly payments and insurance is super cheap. I'm currently dumping what was my 'new car' budget into paying off all the consumer debt I have from a few years of the college version of myself not really understanding credit cards. When it's my time to get a new car I'll have a way better credit score and be able to command a better deal (and afford a better car). Don't get me wrong; I really like the IDEA of a new car. You should see the stack of brochures I have, the magazines, the piles of business cards. When CARS was announced I went on a test driving binge and have gotten behind the wheel of: - 2 Mazda 3's (a base and Sport) ['09] - Honda Civic & Fit Sport - Hyundai Genesis Coupe (This car was great, it was my favorite) - Cobalt SS (Also really fun) - Impreza 2.5i (runner up) - another Impreza 2.5i - Impreza WRX (my top pick) - Legacy (forgot the trim, it was a high end model) - Ford Focus - Scion tC - Scion xB - Scion tC TRD 2.5 - Corolla XRS and I'm also counting driving the drummer of my band's brand new Cobalt 1LT all the way home from Denver after a gig. I turned down test driving a Caliber. But it all came down to the idea of taking on debt in an unsure economy when I could eliminate the bulk of my consumer debt in under 6 months unburdened with a car/insurance combo. The idea of being shouldered with credit cards AND a car payments if I became unemployed terrifies me. I will say: I had a close call Saturday. I caught myself heading towards the Subaru dealership. I actually live right kitty corner to another Subaru dealership. I can see the home of car I want from my porch! and have to drive by it on my way to Checker (not my store of choice but Napa closes EARLY). If I continue to live in the mountains, I want a Subaru. The Lexus is hard to deal with on mountain passes in adverse conditions, even with dedicated winter tires. Way better than my Ford Ranger but still not great. If I moved somewhere warm the Genesis really appeals to me. Keep talking about it, though. It's an unprecedented time in the world economy and a really bizarre stretch of time for America. I'm sitting this one the sidelines though. Just my $.02. I'm glad people actually have opinions on this bill and are making decisions either way and are talking about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
90LS400Lexus Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 I have been out of the loop with LOC for over four years now. I was under the impression that you sold your LS and bought a cream colored Mercedes Benz, and the girl who bought your car wrecked it. Or am I thinking of someone else?You have to put your emotions aside and make a financially sound decision. The styling of the new Tundra puts American "bad !Removed!" trucks to shame. Oh wow, you have been out of the loop for awhile! lol. :D No, I didnt sell my LS, I had thought about it though, and often threatened to, but then my mother said she wanted it, but I wanted to get it up to par before that, but its been a slow go. I did buy a cream colored 1984 Mercedes diesel, but thats long gone- I sold it about a year ago, hard to believe its been that long. It was a nice car, but it was the small one and I needed more leg room because I have a bad knee and back. I hated selling it, but I did and made a $1500 profit! Then last October, I bought another Mercedes, this time a 1988 Mercedes 300SEL sedan... (the largest Mercedes and the long wheelbase model of that). Its a nice car too and I love it. Its a much better car than my LS400 (or should I say dont need the all of the same things my LS is needing now). It has alot more room and I really love this old MB. Not as powerful on takeoffs as the LS though, as its only a 3.0L I6, pulling a 4000 pound car, but its adequate for me.... I only drive it on my days off and I am never in a hurry then. :) Soon my LS WILL either be my moms or I will sell it after I get some things done to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
93LSOwner Posted August 18, 2009 Author Share Posted August 18, 2009 Not as powerful on takeoffs as the LS though Slower than the LS? you must be going backwards than...............j/k If you ever decide to upgrade, look into 93-99 S-class. This car means serious business: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
93LSOwner Posted August 18, 2009 Author Share Posted August 18, 2009 - Right now the Lexus costs me nothing in monthly payments and insurance is super cheap. I'm currently dumping what was my 'new car' budget into paying off all the consumer debt I have from a few years of the college version of myself not really understanding credit cards. When it's my time to get a new car I'll have a way better credit score and be able to command a better deal (and afford a better car). This is a major red flag buddy. How much is the interest rate on that plastic? Stick with your LS, you have no reason to purchase a new vehicle that will eventually be ruined in the snow and salt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intellivised Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 - Right now the Lexus costs me nothing in monthly payments and insurance is super cheap. I'm currently dumping what was my 'new car' budget into paying off all the consumer debt I have from a few years of the college version of myself not really understanding credit cards. When it's my time to get a new car I'll have a way better credit score and be able to command a better deal (and afford a better car). This is a major red flag buddy. How much is the interest rate on that plastic? Stick with your LS, you have no reason to purchase a new vehicle that will eventually be ruined in the snow and salt. Interest rate? What interest rate? Everything has been moved around with some balance transfer magic. I've given myself some leeway and can comfortably finish things in a few months. I used to not get it and was on the road too much to make an effort. Then I realized I was wasting a lot of cash and got with it in a hurry. And just so I can stump for my new home state: what salt? Wyoming doesn't salt. Sometimes they use gravel but generally it's too cold or too ineffective to use salt (3' of snow on a mountain pass isn't going to be handled by salt); once in a while they use the new fangled chemical slurry on the border roads. I used to work for the DOT so I'm pretty down. I'm from rust country and here is a world away, this place is great for car preservation as being at over 7000' helps slow down oxidation. This place is a dream for keeping cars in good shape if you can keep yourself from skating into a tree, buffalo or mountain. Your biggest worry is road rash from the truckers, and an invisible bra goes a long way to curing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW03ES Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 I don't have the energy to get into this again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
90LS400Lexus Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 Look sharp... you will see what looks like a nice Lexus ES with cash for clunkers on the window... (this is at our local Honda/Nissan/Mazda/Suzuki dealership) - you will also notice late model Jeeps, Land Rovers, Lincoln, etc. Land Cruiser lovers would croak.... 1985-87 Land Cruiser with CFC on the window.... 100% rust free southern vehicle... (same lot) more notice the early 2000s Nissan Frontier... neat old rust free Toyota truck.... going to be smashed to bits (hard to see, but its behind the Chevy truck) This is on display at the local Chevy/Cadillac dealer... I love these boat cars... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW03ES Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 I have more energy now ;) I do agree that its a shame to see "good" cars be destroyed, and I too would have a hard time parting with one of my vehicles knowing it would be destroyed. However, there are undenyable benefits to having older cars on the road replaced with more efficient, less poluting, safer, and more reliable vehicles. It makes the roads safer and healthier for everyone. What i'm saying is going out and buying a new car when you don't really need it is just foolish. Thats your opinion. Many, if not most people wind up replacing cars before they "need" to. People want newer features, better safety, more reliability. "Need" is different for everyone, and just because someone else's definition of need is different from yours doesn't make them wrong. Some points to think about regarding CforC program: * You can't just take your old car to be destroyed and get 4.5K without buying a new car. Not even 1k. What if I wanna go "green" and take up cycling to work? Because thats not the point of the program. The environmental aspect is a bonus, the real purpose is to get people to buy new cars. * You don't just get a cheque from the government directly to you, and then just make your own deal with the dealer. The first question the dealer will ask you when you go in is if you are going to use the cfc program and they will negotiate from there. This isn't true. The C4C rebate is a tax rebate to you, the dealer is just putting up the money for you. You can request to not be paid upfront and wait until you file your taxes for '09...but why would you want to wait? * You don't have to buy a more fuel efficient car than your old one. Think about it. You old car can be running great AND be more fuel efficient and still be destroyed! Thats not true either. The car has to be at least 4MPG more efficient to get the $3500 rebate and 10MPG more efficient to get the $4500. * Would people still be as excited about this is if Ford or Toyota announced "Minimum 4.5k trade-in for you old car when you buy a new car. Some conditions apply see dealer for details" (sound familiar?) Why not? its the exact same thing. If it was a government sponsored thing then yes... There's money changing hands all right, and this scheme is genius, no doubt. Just more of the same. All about squeezing every last dollar possible. Take up a $300/mo car payment plus full coverage insurance to help out the "economy"? No thanks So you'd prefer...communism? This is how the economy works my friend. And thats your decision and its the right one for you. Its not up to the government or you to decide what the right decisions are for my family or anyone else's family. Many of us for instance can afford to buy cars outright without loans by the way...so our decision making rubrics are a little different from youts. I see this concept being applied to other areas soon, judging from its success. I saw an ad somewhere for $1 off the new tube lightbulb if you bought in the old filament light bulb. Homes, TVs, Furniture, cellphones.. as long as its a government rebate. Thats called stimulus. People need to buy things for the economy to work...they're already doing it for homes, $8k first time homebuyer tax credit and its also been very successful. All about being green these days, i mean dollar green. Thats how the world works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landar Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 So, let's see...the gov't decides what cars are clunkers and entices people to trade them in so that they can be destroyed. After all, these clunkers are a burden on society. <_< Now, can we draw any analogies to gov't run health care? Can Cyanide4Seniors be far away? :o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blake918 Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Cool, Civics are great cars! Congrats! B) They are much nicer than the Corolla; the Corolla is much cheaper though (I've seen LEs on ebay for $14k, probably not that cheap anymore with the CARS program.). That's too bad about the Altima. They are nice, but I've never heard a good thing about a Nissan dealer. What kind of mileage are you seeing on the highway (75-80mph with the ac on)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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