Orbital Use

[SW03ES]

2- the Flex benefit (more rpm's is a fact, less time a fact,orbiter safer than rotary for newbies a fact) was confirmed by MANY other detailers in my research- one on this board, and many others researched on the inet- Do you think the detailer being equal, a flex is not faster at removing scratches than a PC? Not better for a new person to polishing? Wouldn't you prefer to use less aggressive pads and polish and still remove the swirls?

First of all the Flex us an orbital buffer, it does not have any RPMs. It has more OPMs than a PC, oscillations per minute.

I would venture to guess that detailers being equal the Flex may be faster removing swirls than a PC. However, I have not used a flex and I don't post suggestions to people about tools or products I haven't used myself.

Using less aggressive pads and polishes is a moot point, the Flex has the same abrasive level with less abrasive pads and polishes due to its higher speed. Its 6 of one, 1/2 a dozen of another.

So after telling me I should not post, at the end of your post you say you might buy a flex as a new detailer. By that statement do you not add credence to my post informing someone of the flex? So I disagree that I am not helping anyone.

You can inform someone of the Flex but don't preport your opinion as fact and try and argue with people who have practical experience when you do not.

3- Don't assume- Actually years ago I did a recon of a smashed car-pulling dents, included bondo red lead Makita rotary, finished the front and hood, primed etc. . Before the accident polished the whole car to restore it. (Helped by friend) and helped an experienced 'detailer' friend restore his cars. Now it has been little over 20 years since i seriously did a car (outsourcing to others) but It is obvious an experienced detailer SHOULD be able to detail better than a first timer or me.

Honestly, thats not experience that is comparable to mine or others here or on Autopia. Sorry.

PS- You didn't sound snippy, ..............you actually sounded holier than thou :whistles:

Sorry, but I know more about this than you. Thats simply a fact because I've been doing it so long.

I will not allow the detailing forum here to become like the detailing forums at other car sites, full of people posting "opinions" about things they have no idea what they're talking about and regurgitating what they've read on other forums instead of offering suggestions from their practical experience because they don't have any.

I and others work too hard here organizing all this information and spending our time helping people and answering questions to have to compete with someone who has no practical experience from which to base their opinions on. Theres an old saying "A man with experience is not at the mercy of a man with an opinion" and thats the case here.

If thats too holier than thou for you, don't post here. You'd get the same reaction on ANY detailing forum for trying to pass off what you've read as a legitimate opinion based on fact.

Your statement that the Flex is a better machine than the PC is worthless and pointless because you haven't used either machine. Don't post uninformed opinions on my detailing forum and not expect to get called on it.

[rjt65]

I never claimed I was an practical expert nor misrepresented myself as such, yet you act like I did. You seem to think since I have not recently polished my car with orbiter/Rotary I cannot post anything on detailing. But as you state in your welcome note we are free to challenge thus I am and will. I did not take an absolute stand on the flex and am not going to bother to restate all my posts on how i appropriately represented my thoughts in this thread. Notice the word SEEMS like starting my flex posts... I mistakenly said RPM vesus OPM's so shoot me

A good quote "Nothing is more dangerous than an opinion if that is the only one you got." Emile Chartier.

I suggest you start an experts of detailing board where only practical experts (of course define practical experts 2 cars done 10, 50, 100 ? years doing it?) can post in it? I l just looked at the rules for this board and am not violating anything. Your insistence that only those who have done it recently can have an opinion is your way of thinking, not everyone else's. But as you are the moderator you can run it anyway you want I guess.

If you are complete owner of this site-forum why don't you state how you now prefer to run it accurately in the "Welcome note in this detailing forum?' You state 'open to new ideas' , but now you only want new ideas from people you consider post worthy?

First from overall welcome: From the pinned tab "what is the Lexus owners club" "^{We strive to provide a relaxed and friendly home on the Internet for Lexus Owners to come together and discuss their cars, share problems or solutions, or to ask for help if they need it."}

Relaxed and friendly ..hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm You may want to reread this pinned note instead of calling other peoples thoughts worthless.

FROM YOUR NOTE getting to know the detailing forum: I have a lot of background in detailing, I've been doing it as a hobby for the past 10 years or so. I'm not a professional but I do a few cars here and there for profit just for fun. Detailing is a great hobby, and a great way to either make a few extra bucks or even a living. I know my stuff but I'm by no means an expert, so please feel free to bring up new topics or to disagree/challenge anything I or anyone else may lay on the table in here for discussion.

This forum is for discussing the matter of Automotive Detailing. Detailing is a highly specialized field. It is not a difficult activity but there is a learning curve involved. A line I like to use is "Detailing is 10% products and 90% process". I can't take ownership of those words but they are very true. When you start out detailing you're looking for the ultimate product but you'll quickly learn that it doesn't exist. There are many excellent products out there, but your prepwork beforehand will make the result either good or great.

Beware the lure of the "ultimate product" and never take anyone's experience as fact. The best part about detailing is discovering new products and new techniques. So I would ask that everyone be open to new ideas, avoid pushing products and allow people to make up their own minds, be supportive of each other and everything will be fine.

[SW03ES]

Look, I don't want to fight. Yes you're welcome to challenge me or anybody else, but you've got to have the experience to back that up, and you just don't. You can't challenge me saying that you can do with a PC what you can do with a Flex when you have never used a PC or a Flex, or any orbital buffer...ever. You can't tell someone the Flex is a better tool when you haven't used it, or *any* other comparable tool.

You are welcome to post, but if you post an opinion or make a statement where you don't have any experience or first hand knowledge to back it up, I'm going to call you out. You have no basis for your opinions on this subject, and people reading them need to know that when they weigh whether to listen to you or to others.

Your insistence that only those who have done it recently can have an opinion is your way of thinking

I don't think its unreasonable to ask that you only offer advice or make suggestions based on your own experience. If you post information and the goal of that information os truly to offer guidance. You've got to admit, actually participating in the process you are advising people on at least once within the last 20 years would be a good idea. At least it would be a good idea before arguing with people who have been partipating in that process on a professional level for years.

I can have an opinion as to how steel should be welded...but it wouldn't be helpful to anyone if I expressed it because I've never done it. I'll leave it to the welders to help folks who have questions because I just might be wrong.

I never claimed I was an practical expert nor misrepresented myself as such, yet you act like I did.

I just re read your original response to the OP to make sure I wasn't off base, and I'm not. You made matter-of-fact statements, made a value judgement on one tool over the other, and never admitted that you have never even used either tool to say the least that you had never even used a similar tool. Thats not fair to the people who are looking for guidance from people who know what they're talking about.

I posted a peice of information, information that is fact based on my many years of experience on the subject and you said I was wrong, when you've never even done what we're talking about once. That takes some major cojones.

You state 'open to new ideas' , but now you only want new ideas from people you consider post worthy?

We want new ideas from people who know what they're talking about...

You're posting in a way that makes you sound like you know what you're talking about, but you don't. Plenty of people here that do, let them do the helping please until such time that you have some personal experience to offer.

[Jthomas1315]

I purchased Groits package and the results have been excellent. I tried it on my wife's car first as a test case. Proceeded to do my 92 SC (Spruce Green), and my 2000 ES Diamond White Pearl. I would not hesitate to recomend it to anybody. It takes about 2 hours if you follow all the steps. ( Wash, clay, polish and wax.) :)

[Manchester]

I purchased Groits package and the results have been excellent. I tried it on my wife's car first as a test case. Proceeded to do my 92 SC (Spruce Green), and my 2000 ES Diamond White Pearl. I would not hesitate to recomend it to anybody. It takes about 2 hours if you follow all the steps. ( Wash, clay, polish and wax.) :)

Did you purchase the polish/wax removal pads or just remove by hand?

[smooth1]

I just remove it by hand. But I only chose that because I thought the blue pad was a bit to expensive and the bonnets had to be purchased on top of that yet, and I like doing the final wipe downs by hand anyway.

I really like thier microfiber towels. The gold color ones with the black edges is really nice, and I thought worth it once I got em and used em. I planned on getting another set.

[Manchester]

I just remove it by hand. But I only chose that because I thought the blue pad was a bit to expensive and the bonnets had to be purchased on top of that yet, and I like doing the final wipe downs by hand anyway.

I really like thier microfiber towels. The gold color ones with the black edges is really nice, and I thought worth it once I got em and used em. I planned on getting another set.

Thanks Smooth 1. I use the gold ones for polish removal and the whites ones for was removal and Speed Shine. Do you use the gold ones for both polish and was removal?

[smooth1]

I was referring to #11023. They use it for a drying towel, I use it as a final wipe down polishing/buffing hand towel.

[rjt65]

OK my last post in this thread in response. (Work Work work kept me off my sites this week arrgh! ) Agreed I am not looking to fight, so lets keep this on the up and up and please stop calling me/my responses worthless and such. That is demeaning.

My fact statements were published facts about the flex and independent verified and published by MFG's on OPM's, thus should be quicker to remove scratches, all else being equal. etc. That was my fact statements. Re-read the other thread which clearly statesto) (and I tell people to refer to it) my discussions and research with detail doc and others on best products and orbiters.

I think you unfairly are misrepresenting me as someone trying to fool people to think I am an expert. In my posts I point this thread to the other thread where I am clearly representing i was investigating what products to use. I Used the words It seems, etc...

I plan on getting the flex and using it and will post the results in this forum.

I DO NOT DISAGREE THAT EXPERIENCED PEOPLE ARE THE BEST TO OFFER ADVICE. But suggest you open yourself up to accept other forms of gaining knowledge do exist and experienced people are not always the right or the only forms of best information.

Without going into long discussion on research methodology practitioner experience is weighted heavily but limiting thought challenges to practitioners is severely limiting.

So lets respect each others opinions though we do not agree! I will try to do better job in posting should I want to comment to people on subjects that I have not been experienced with.

cheers

Look, I don't want to fight. Yes you're welcome to challenge me or anybody else, but you've got to have the experience to back that up, and you just don't. You can't challenge me saying that you can do with a PC what you can do with a Flex when you have never used a PC or a Flex, or any orbital buffer...ever. You can't tell someone the Flex is a better tool when you haven't used it, or *any* other comparable tool.

You are welcome to post, but if you post an opinion or make a statement where you don't have any experience or first hand knowledge to back it up, I'm going to call you out. You have no basis for your opinions on this subject, and people reading them need to know that when they weigh whether to listen to you or to others.

Your insistence that only those who have done it recently can have an opinion is your way of thinking

I don't think its unreasonable to ask that you only offer advice or make suggestions based on your own experience. If you post information and the goal of that information os truly to offer guidance. You've got to admit, actually participating in the process you are advising people on at least once within the last 20 years would be a good idea. At least it would be a good idea before arguing with people who have been partipating in that process on a professional level for years.

I can have an opinion as to how steel should be welded...but it wouldn't be helpful to anyone if I expressed it because I've never done it. I'll leave it to the welders to help folks who have questions because I just might be wrong.

I never claimed I was an practical expert nor misrepresented myself as such, yet you act like I did.

I just re read your original response to the OP to make sure I wasn't off base, and I'm not. You made matter-of-fact statements, made a value judgement on one tool over the other, and never admitted that you have never even used either tool to say the least that you had never even used a similar tool. Thats not fair to the people who are looking for guidance from people who know what they're talking about.

I posted a peice of information, information that is fact based on my many years of experience on the subject and you said I was wrong, when you've never even done what we're talking about once. That takes some major cojones.

You state 'open to new ideas' , but now you only want new ideas from people you consider post worthy?

We want new ideas from people who know what they're talking about...

You're posting in a way that makes you sound like you know what you're talking about, but you don't. Plenty of people here that do, let them do the helping please until such time that you have some personal experience to offer.

[AZ08LexusES]

I agree with RJT, good advice for all posters whether they are or are not experts. Now please, may this be the end of it, I'd hate to see another smackdown by the forum police... I want to read informative and entertaining posts, not explanations on why some people may be better qualified to give opinions than anyone else, it gives the holier than thou feeling. It is a forum for opinions. RJT has been good for this forum and should not be run off, IMO.

[SW03ES]

We actually don't disagree about the Flex.

Just, in the future, don't reccomend products or tools that you haven't used yourself, and don't argue with people that have more experience than you do. For instance I would not argue with TOGWT for instance because he knows more about detailing than I do. If detaildoc for instance says to me "The Flex is a better tool than the PC" its not even up for debate because he knows having used both tools and I've only used the PC. His experience is greater than mine in the area.

RJT has been good for this forum and should not be run off, IMO.

My intention was never to run RJT off, I like RJT. However I don't think I'm being unduly boastful by suggesting that I've been pretty good for this forum as well. This detailing forum wouldn't be here nor would this data be here if it weren't for me. He's been here 3 months...I've been here 5 1/2 years, written technical articles, created a partnership with Autopia. I've been detailing cars for over a decade and he's just learning.

This had nothing to do with me being the "forum police". Nobody broke any rules, nobody got moderated. It has to do with this forum being the main focus of my energy here and detailing being one of my passions.

Lets just let it drop...

[AZ08LexusES]

Steve, you have been fantastic for this forum. I always look forward to see what your suggestions are and pay close attention to them because I know what your level of experience is and respect that. I just don't like it when good people get the smackdown, but do agree that some people deserve it.

[jcrome04]

Yeah I know this is late. wow sorry the Cyclo spins at 3k ORBITS per minute depending on how much pressure you're putting on it.

Between taping things off (if you do) and "cutting" out your edges with the rotary, the dual head is MUCH faster and safer. since there's no heat build up to burn through the paint. You can work spots that require a little more attention a little longer.

But all in all it's just my opinion. I choose to use the cycle at my shop because I think it's a great machine, it gets my clients out faster, and they don't worry about their paint.

[rjt65]

Ok my really last note in this thread (I hope) , Like to read all the posts SW posted too and agree this as a gr8 forum that Steve runs .

I was not arguing vehemently, just ( saying the flex is faster OPM ) and suggesting person to read the post where detail doc (U 2 SW and others) placed pages of posts on detailing where experienced guys and newbies put up a good thread.

As I too am in the market for a gr8 Orbiter I spent lot time discussing with DDOC others and looking up on the internet. PC, UDM a lot of others were discussed in that thread. People reading it can learn a lot, (Like I did) and use that to help them in making decisions. that is a gr8 thread that this board provided, thanks all for it. (JGT started with an innocent ?--man 19 pages or so now!) PS DDOC agreed FLEX is gr8 orbiter as well, so I just conveyed that info. Lot good product exists out there, each with their benefits.

So SW, I may 'argue' that I have better experience and skills in research than you. I am educated through MBA, successful careers at top corporations, work extensively with IBM research , etc etc etc. (NOTE: You may be on consumer reports testing team for 20 years for all I know, I am just making a point here not actually stating this as fact) Does that Mean I should tell everyone they can't disagree/argue a point with me because I have more experience in researching products, etc ? I think not.

so we will agree to disagree on Opinions, in relation to experience.

cherrio all!

We actually don't disagree about the Flex.

Just, in the future, don't reccomend products or tools that you haven't used yourself, and don't argue with people that have more experience than you do. For instance I would not argue with TOGWT for instance because he knows more about detailing than I do. If detaildoc for instance says to me "The Flex is a better tool than the PC" its not even up for debate because he knows having used both tools and I've only used the PC. His experience is greater than mine in the area.

RJT has been good for this forum and should not be run off, IMO.

My intention was never to run RJT off, I like RJT. However I don't think I'm being unduly boastful by suggesting that I've been pretty good for this forum as well. This detailing forum wouldn't be here nor would this data be here if it weren't for me. He's been here 3 months...I've been here 5 1/2 years, written technical articles, created a partnership with Autopia. I've been detailing cars for over a decade and he's just learning.

This had nothing to do with me being the "forum police". Nobody broke any rules, nobody got moderated. It has to do with this forum being the main focus of my energy here and detailing being one of my passions.

Lets just let it drop...

[JGTNewLexusOwner]

Just my 2 cents here! SW and rjt; along with all of the great members here are just trying to help (hey, even rjt passed me; I am at novice in detailing and he passed me after the first couple of weeks with this orbital thing...I am still afraid to clay..ha ha). Anyway, I think opposing view points are great and I think we all can say that we really can't get our true emotions through by typing words on a page....even emoticons, :cries: don't always work!!!

The importance here is that we all love our Lexus'. And we should feel a "little bit" privileged to be at a point in our lives to afford one (even though the ES is alot more affordable than some of my friend's trucks..ha ha). Also, I think that if all of the posts are read, rjt admits to not being an expert like ddoc or even SW for that matter (SW and ddoc have helped me SO much in this forum that I just can't thank you guys enough). And, when I get the "nads", to clay or use an orbiter/flex/thingamajig, I will come back to this post to see what you all say and make my own decision on what to do (ok, ok, I might email ddoc or SW first to make sure.....I am still a novice geek at detailing). Thanks again everyone for your opinion and help!!!!

[SW03ES]

Yeah I know this is late. wow sorry the Cyclo spins at 3k ORBITS per minute depending on how much pressure you're putting on it.

Between taping things off (if you do) and "cutting" out your edges with the rotary, the dual head is MUCH faster and safer. since there's no heat build up to burn through the paint. You can work spots that require a little more attention a little longer.

But all in all it's just my opinion. I choose to use the cycle at my shop because I think it's a great machine, it gets my clients out faster, and they don't worry about their paint.

Have you used a rotary to compare, or have you talked with people who are experienced with a Rotary? An orbital is safer, but its not faster. No orbital can produce the cutting power that a rotary can, and if you know how to use one a rotary will always be faster. You would be the only person ever to say an orbital is faster than a rotary at removing swirls and polishing out a car, its just not the case.

With a rotary you don't have to work spots longer...

If you know what you're doing, the burn through is a non-issue, and taping isn't really neccisary.

I don't use a rotary myself, but I do very little paint polishing because of my washing routine. If I were still detailing customers cars I'd use a rotary.

o SW, I may 'argue' that I have better experience and skills in research than you. I am educated through MBA, successful careers at top corporations, work extensively with IBM research , etc etc etc. (NOTE: You may be on consumer reports testing team for 20 years for all I know, I am just making a point here not actually stating this as fact) Does that Mean I should tell everyone they can't disagree/argue a point with me because I have more experience in researching products, etc ? I think not.

No, but you would not be out of line to suggest that your opinion is more valid than mine or others when it comes to research models or business administration. You can't replace first hand experience with research. You have first hand experience in research and in business administration that I can't replicate that on my own by reading some articles and forum posts. Just like I have first hand experience in buffer use you can't replicate by reading articles or forum posts.

[smooth1]

So, Manchester, I was just wondering how it has worked out? Anyone else got new buffers and experiences?

[Manchester]

So, Manchester, I was just wondering how it has worked out? Anyone else got new buffers and experiences?

The Griot's Random Orbital has worked nicely. It is easy to use and I have found their polishes are aggressive enough to do a nice job without creating problems. The orbital keeps a cool touch to the metal but is effective. I decided to buy their 3" orbital after purchasing the 6". The 3" is nice for the smaller/closer areas. Since they are my first orbitals, I can't make a comparison to other models/brands, but am pleased with my decision to purchase the ones I did. I do work slowly as I may work only part of the car at one setting and then do another part on another day.

[smooth1]

Your details must be really detailed! ;)

I just bought some Adam's microfiber towels from a recent car show, and man, they are really nice! But the Griot's ones were right there when you consider the price. Adam's cost a bit more, but they were a bit better also.

I have been using the Griot's spray wax after each car wash to help maintain the paint sealant. It really beads the water off!! It rained on the car one day in the parking lot, when I got in and closed the door, one of my friends lauphed and said all the water just fell off the car!

[Manchester]

Your details must be really detailed! ;)

I just bought some Adam's microfiber towels from a recent car show, and man, they are really nice! But the Griot's ones were right there when you consider the price. Adam's cost a bit more, but they were a bit better also.

I have been using the Griot's spray wax after each car wash to help maintain the paint sealant. It really beads the water off!! It rained on the car one day in the parking lot, when I got in and closed the door, one of my friends lauphed and said all the water just fell off the car!

I just got some of the blue Speed Shine microfiber towels and they are really nice. Very thick and seem to do a nicer job than the white wax ones I have been using with Speed Shine.

[smooth1]

really? Hmm, I just might add a set of those to the next order. ;)