Driving In The Snow

[new2mud]

And just when was the last time you looked into rubber compounds of winter specialty tires vs summer tire compounds...??

Twenty or so years ago, or certainly even more, your statement would be correct, winter specialty tires had differing formulation for the rubber. But competition has now run its course and since those specialty tires didn't cover many miles when compared to summer tires the winter formulation technique has been dropped in favor of the winter times having mileage ratings equal to their summer counterpart.

As an example back in the sixties if your winter tires outlated the season you considered yourself lucky. Nowadays if the mileage achieved is at least close to taht of a summer counterpart its NO SALE.

If those winter formulations were still available, and available for my summer type tire treads, I would willingly consider switching each fall and spring.

You have been misinformed on modern tires. No way is the compound the same between winter and summer tires, with the possible exception of Bridgestone's awful practice of having the 2nd half of the Blizzaks a regular summer compound, effectively only giving you 1/2 the winter tire you paid for.

Nobody I know here in the mountains expects winter tire life to equal that of an all-season tire. There is a reason that people around here either run dedicated summer and dedicated winter tires and swap them out or just run the Nokian WR, and that reason isn't "everybody falls for the marketing hype"--modern winter tires truly make a huge difference over summer or even "all-season" tires.

While those willing to put on chains over their summer tires will get through the snowpack and ice just fine, the reality is that very few people under the age of 50 even know how to put chains on.

Again, my intent is not to start a flame war, since WWEST has an awful lot of experience and good advice on this board. However, suggesting that people can get superior snow performance on summer tires (without chains) is just plain dangerous.

[new2mud]

new2mud, I was under the impression from post #21 ("I've got them on my car, firsthand experience. It is summer now, and the smooth ride is, well,... smooth!") that you ran Noks all year round. No? What make are your summer/winter tires?

Landar--I now run 19s in the summer, so the Nokians on stock wheels are back to dedicated winter duty.

[new2mud]

From the linked reference..:

"..Their Adaptive Progressive Stiffness (APS) rubber technology allows the unique compound to soften at the road's surface, while remaining ridgid near the tire belt, thus providing intense grip and superior handling in all winter road conditions --- even on dry roads."

Hmmm..."'superior handling" "even on dry roads."

So tell me, why would any tire manufacturer reserve such a formulation ONLY for winter tires..??

Or do they...??!!

Since the idea is to sell the public on buying winter tires why would the manufacturers tell us if the same "superior handling" rubber formulations aren't available for summer only tires?

I'm not by any means saying that winter tires shouldn't be used in climates where adverse wintertime roadbed conditions are the rule of the day, season.

And finally:

"superior handling" "even on dry roadbeds"...

Even on dry roadbeds...In comparison to what? Certainly not my "poorly" formulated summer tires. Were that the case why not run on winter tires all year around.

The "superior handling" I'm quite certain is not in reference to comparisons against dedicated performance summer tires, but compared against the squishiness often associated with winter tires. There is no way any winter tire could ever claim to be comparable to the dry summer performance of a summer tire--too many tradeoffs to be made on compound, tread design, etc.

While I've not tried these tires--wonder if they're also claiming these as all-weather a la Nokian WR...would need to know what the treadwear life is like.

[aarman4]

WWEST,

Perhaps you should attempt to spend some time in the winter in a cold area? Maybe you have... I am not sure. I live in an area that spends sometimes months in a row when the temperature doesn't go above -20F. I tell you your summer tires do not last very long in those conditions first of all, and believe it or not, the snow, though not always falling, does blow on the road in those temperatures and then, as you have said, the summers are useless on it. I drove over 9 winters in the Pacific Northwest and would never even consider winters out there ccompared to all-seasons, but when the temps drop, and the possibility of snow exists, winters is the way.

[wwest]

WWEST,

Perhaps you should attempt to spend some time in the winter in a cold area? Maybe you have... I am not sure. I live in an area that spends sometimes months in a row when the temperature doesn't go above -20F. I tell you your summer tires do not last very long in those conditions first of all, and believe it or not, the snow, though not always falling, does blow on the road in those temperatures and then, as you have said, the summers are useless on it. I drove over 9 winters in the Pacific Northwest and would never even consider winters out there ccompared to all-seasons, but when the temps drop, and the possibility of snow exists, winters is the way.

58-60 USAF in NH, 62-65 North central MT, Anchorage/Fairbanks/Barrow in the early seventies, computer service and sales.

What I've been trying to say is that here in my area conditions that require winter tires are rare enough that it's better to simply rely on chains for those rare times. So I never have to buy winter specialty tires of any flavor (nor pay to have them swapped over) and I only have to buy new tire chains if the "next" vehicle I buy requires larger ones.

Intermixed with all that is my patent/extreme dislike of FWD & F/AWD vehicles in ANY adverse roadbed condition wherein they can suddenly become extremely dangerous with no warning to an inexperienced driver.

Were I still living in MT and had to make a choice between a FWD or F/AWD equipped with the best winter tire imaginiable and a RWD or R/AWD with summer tires I would choose the latter EVERY TIME..!

On an adverse, slippery, roadbed FWD or F/AWD vehicles are just as dangerous, or even moreso, as a 4WD/4X4 with the diff'l remaining locked after underway, highway cruising.

[magic]

I am a newbie here but have been driving in snow in Canada. My experience has been that winter studded tires are the best for extreme winter. I do not know if this is allowed in some places but where I live it is the normal tires many use in Winter. I have had the unfortunate experience in driving in all seasons in winter and skidding off the road. Since I have changed to winter studded I have had no problems. I feel that winter tires(studded or not) is better than any summer tires or all season tires for driving in the snow.

At this moment in time I do not drive a Lexus but looking to buy a LS400. I used to drive one in UK before I moved to Canada.

[Bali26]

WWEST,

Perhaps you should attempt to spend some time in the winter in a cold area? Maybe you have... I am not sure. I live in an area that spends sometimes months in a row when the temperature doesn't go above -20F. I tell you your summer tires do not last very long in those conditions first of all, and believe it or not, the snow, though not always falling, does blow on the road in those temperatures and then, as you have said, the summers are useless on it. I drove over 9 winters in the Pacific Northwest and would never even consider winters out there ccompared to all-seasons, but when the temps drop, and the possibility of snow exists, winters is the way.

58-60 USAF in NH, 62-65 North central MT, Anchorage/Fairbanks/Barrow in the early seventies, computer service and sales.

What I've been trying to say is that here in my area conditions that require winter tires are rare enough that it's better to simply rely on chains for those rare times. So I never have to buy winter specialty tires of any flavor (nor pay to have them swapped over) and I only have to buy new tire chains if the "next" vehicle I buy requires larger ones.

Intermixed with all that is my patent/extreme dislike of FWD & F/AWD vehicles in ANY adverse roadbed condition wherein they can suddenly become extremely dangerous with no warning to an inexperienced driver.

Were I still living in MT and had to make a choice between a FWD or F/AWD equipped with the best winter tire imaginiable and a RWD or R/AWD with summer tires I would choose the latter EVERY TIME..!

On an adverse, slippery, roadbed FWD or F/AWD vehicles are just as dangerous, or even moreso, as a 4WD/4X4 with the diff'l remaining locked after underway, highway cruising.

Me too... I have all season and live in Canada. Whenever the road gets slick i slap on my snow cables (Security Chain Co model shur grip Z, s rated link: http://www.scc-chain.com/Traction%20Pages/Trac_SGZ.html )

I really believe a lot of snow tire users dont really need them or could do fine with cables. Perfect safety-product Marketing ploy...but it help the economy.

[landar]

new2mud, I was under the impression from post #21 ("I've got them on my car, firsthand experience. It is summer now, and the smooth ride is, well,... smooth!") that you ran Noks all year round. No? What make are your summer/winter tires?

Landar--I now run 19s in the summer, so the Nokians on stock wheels are back to dedicated winter duty.

So, did you find that the Nokians were just noisy in the summer? Why did you choose to switch out in the summer. Just curious.

I had Nokians on a previous car. Worked great in the snow but thought they were perhaps a bit noisier that summer tires.

FWIW, I think a good (big qualifier, I know) all-season tire can be effectively used in the snow. Perhaps of greater importance than

the winter/summer tire debate is just the ability to know when to slow down, how to steer, brake, etc in adverse conditions. I see more 4 wheel drives in the ditch than any RWD

vehicle. Over confidence and speed can get you into a lot of trouble.

[wwest]

new2mud, I was under the impression from post #21 ("I've got them on my car, firsthand experience. It is summer now, and the smooth ride is, well,... smooth!") that you ran Noks all year round. No? What make are your summer/winter tires?

Landar--I now run 19s in the summer, so the Nokians on stock wheels are back to dedicated winter duty.

So, did you find that the Nokians were just noisy in the summer? Why did you choose to switch out in the summer. Just curious.

I had Nokians on a previous car. Worked great in the snow but thought they were perhaps a bit noisier that summer tires.

FWIW, I think a good (big qualifier, I know) all-season tire can be effectively used in the snow. Perhaps of greater importance than

the winter/summer tire debate is just the ability to know when to slow down, how to steer, brake, etc in adverse conditions. I see more 4 wheel drives in the ditch than any RWD

vehicle. Over confidence and speed can get you into a lot of trouble.

It seems that lots of modern day 4X4 drivers haven't enough expereince to know to unlock the diff'l once underway. On the hwy in "cruise" mode with the center diff'l locked a 4X4 is just as unsafe as any FWD.

[new2mud]

So, did you find that the Nokians were just noisy in the summer? Why did you choose to switch out in the summer. Just curious.

I had Nokians on a previous car. Worked great in the snow but thought they were perhaps a bit noisier that summer tires.

Landar--my switch to the dedicated summer set was for aesthetics (the 19s). While the WRs are slightly louder than good all-seasons, it is not anywhere near a howl that could characterize some dedicated winter tires. Now keep in mind that I would not recommend leaving just any Nokian (or other winter tires for that matter) for summer use--only the WR series. As mentioned before, they are a slight compromise down from the top tier winter tires (including other Nokian winter tires) when the road gets really slick, with the added benefit of not having to swap out every season. While some may say that since I went with dedicated summer set that I lose that advantage, keep in mind that the WR also has great tread wear rating, so I am confident with the WRs in taking the family on long trips during the "transition seasons" where I may or may not encounter snow, without fear of the greatly advanced wearing of tread on dry pavement that would happen on most other dedicated snow tires. So its still an all-around benefit to me, even though I own dedicated summer tires/wheels.

As for the summer tire/winter tire debate, I just want to make sure that bad advice taken here doesn't wind up getting an inexperienced driver hurt in the slippery stuff in their LS.

I don't know how many on this thread have actually driven their LS with all-season, or worse with dedicated summer performance tires (without chains) extensively on snowpack, ice, and slush, but it's downright hairy without TC, and merely hairy even with TC. There is absolutely no comparison in driving the LS in winter conditions with dedicated winter tires. Anybody offering opinions without actually having driven an LS400 (I'm not talking about general FWD/AWD/RWD here--specifically talking about the LS) with and without winter tires is speaking purely from conjecture. I don't mean to discredit you WWEST--I value many of your other opinions on this board, but strongly disagree with your opinions on this particular topic.

I will not belabor this topic anymore, but if it makes just 1 person reconsider using summer performance tires in the snow, then it's worth it.

[scottmcc]

Left this morning to go to Fort Wayne Indiana from Muskegon Michigan. I have new Michelin Pilots on my LS and there was 2 to 3 inches of fresh snow on the roads. 30 minutes into the trip I aborted because I was not comfortable with the way it was riding..(Blowing snow and ICE) Even with the traction control in the SNOW mode. Quite frankly the LS has too much power to the rear wheels to handle well on ICY roads with These PILOTS on....

[SW03ES]

It really is a pig in the snow without snow tires...

[eatingupblacktop]

If I remember correctly, South Bend is pretty flat coutryside, at least it was back in the late fifties, maybe Rochester Hill, MI, too.

Personally I would rather drive my RWD '92 LS400 with summer tires over any FWD or F/AWD equpped with the BEST winter tread, in adverse roadbed conditions.

I have to disagree. First of all, AWD beats either FWD or RWD anytime any place. Next, the aggressive tread of a winter tire will give you better traction in snow than any summer or all season tire. Otherwise we may as well be driving around on slicks in the winter. Lastly, temperature is as important in how a tire performs as is the amount of snow you're in. The lower the temp, the less traction for a summer tire or all season even on dry roads.

[wwest]

If I remember correctly, South Bend is pretty flat coutryside, at least it was back in the late fifties, maybe Rochester Hill, MI, too.

Personally I would rather drive my RWD '92 LS400 with summer tires over any FWD or F/AWD equpped with the BEST winter tread, in adverse roadbed conditions.

I have to disagree. First of all, AWD beats either FWD or RWD anytime any place. Next, the aggressive tread of a winter tire will give you better traction in snow than any summer or all season tire. Otherwise we may as well be driving around on slicks in the winter. Lastly, temperature is as important in how a tire performs as is the amount of snow you're in. The lower the temp, the less traction for a summer tire or all season even on dry roads.

What I was trying to convey is that FWD and F/AWD (front torque biased AWD) vehicles are UNSAFE, more unsafe, even when shod with winter specialty tires, when compared to my 92 LS400 with summer tires.

And since my summer tires clearly have more roadbed contact surface area to ride on top of whatever covers the actual base surface, ice , packed snow, etc, they will ALWAYS have better traction on a hard smooth surface, slippery or no. And let's not bring up that old saw about rubber formulation, winter tires getting softer in cold weather, there is absolutely no foundation for anyone believing those same "softening" formulations are not also used on summer tires.

When I see winter specialty tires being tested successfully against summer tires on an ice skating rink then, and only then, will I become a believer.

[theoldpaths]

I live about 20 minutes from Muskegon, so I know all about "Blowing snow and ICE", and I will say it again, these cars need snow tires. I have Yokohama iceGuard IG10 on all four and it really grips better than I thought it would. I bought my LS this fall and was nervous leading up to winter with this car, but with these tires I have no problem at all. By the way, I never use the traction control.

Left this morning to go to Fort Wayne Indiana from Muskegon Michigan. I have new Michelin Pilots on my LS and there was 2 to 3 inches of fresh snow on the roads. 30 minutes into the trip I aborted because I was not comfortable with the way it was riding..(Blowing snow and ICE) Even with the traction control in the SNOW mode. Quite frankly the LS has too much power to the rear wheels to handle well on ICY roads with These PILOTS on....

[eatingupblacktop]

If I remember correctly, South Bend is pretty flat coutryside, at least it was back in the late fifties, maybe Rochester Hill, MI, too.

Personally I would rather drive my RWD '92 LS400 with summer tires over any FWD or F/AWD equpped with the BEST winter tread, in adverse roadbed conditions.

I have to disagree. First of all, AWD beats either FWD or RWD anytime any place. Next, the aggressive tread of a winter tire will give you better traction in snow than any summer or all season tire. Otherwise we may as well be driving around on slicks in the winter. Lastly, temperature is as important in how a tire performs as is the amount of snow you're in. The lower the temp, the less traction for a summer tire or all season even on dry roads.

What I was trying to convey is that FWD and F/AWD (front torque biased AWD) vehicles are UNSAFE, more unsafe, even when shod with winter specialty tires, when compared to my 92 LS400 with summer tires.

And since my summer tires clearly have more roadbed contact surface area they will ALWAYS have better traction on a hard smooth surface, slippery or no. And let's not bring up that old saw about rubber formulation, winter tires getting softer in cold weather, there is absolutely no foundation for anyone believing those same "softening" formulations are not also used on summer tires.

When I see winter specialty tires being tested successfully against summer tires on an ice skating rink then, and only then, will I become a believer.

It's been done in an indoor hockey rink here in Canada for tv ads. No comparison between winter tires and anything else. Your argument that "my summer tires clearly have more roadbed contact surface area" is moot because if you're on snow you have no road contact. In that circumstance your traction is totally dependant on how well your tire can grip and clear the snow. The only reason there is a tread on summer tires at all is to clear water on a wet road. The best traction you can get on clear and dry asphalt is on tires with no tread. It's obvious that the aggressive tread pattern and depth of that pattern in winter tires, is designed to give you an advantage with snow.

[eatingupblacktop]

"When I see winter specialty tires being tested successfully against summer tires on an ice skating rink then, and only then, will I become a believer"

There have also been plenty of local tv news items and reviews in car shows such as Motorweek.

[wwest]

If I remember correctly, South Bend is pretty flat coutryside, at least it was back in the late fifties, maybe Rochester Hill, MI, too.

Personally I would rather drive my RWD '92 LS400 with summer tires over any FWD or F/AWD equpped with the BEST winter tread, in adverse roadbed conditions.

I have to disagree. First of all, AWD beats either FWD or RWD anytime any place. Next, the aggressive tread of a winter tire will give you better traction in snow than any summer or all season tire. Otherwise we may as well be driving around on slicks in the winter. Lastly, temperature is as important in how a tire performs as is the amount of snow you're in. The lower the temp, the less traction for a summer tire or all season even on dry roads.

What I was trying to convey is that FWD and F/AWD (front torque biased AWD) vehicles are UNSAFE, more unsafe, even when shod with winter specialty tires, when compared to my 92 LS400 with summer tires.

And since my summer tires clearly have more roadbed contact surface area they will ALWAYS have better traction on a hard smooth surface, slippery or no. And let's not bring up that old saw about rubber formulation, winter tires getting softer in cold weather, there is absolutely no foundation for anyone believing those same "softening" formulations are not also used on summer tires.

When I see winter specialty tires being tested successfully against summer tires on an ice skating rink then, and only then, will I become a believer.

It's been done in an indoor hockey rink here in Canada for tv ads. No comparison between winter tires and anything else. Your argument that "my summer tires clearly have more roadbed contact surface area" is moot because if you're on snow you have no road contact. In that circumstance your traction is totally dependant on how well your tire can grip and clear the snow. The only reason there is a tread on summer tires at all is to clear water on a wet road. The best traction you can get on clear and dry asphalt is on tires with no tread. It's obvious that the aggressive tread pattern and depth of that pattern in winter tires, is designed to give you an advantage with snow.

May I even so politely say I do not believe you...?

The tests I have witnessed indicated that the tire with the most surface contact area always provided the most traction on ice or packed snow.

On a loosely packed surface, yes the winter specialty tire outperforms.

But like finding perfect powder for skiing, loosely packed roadbed surfaces, ADVERSE roadbed traction surfaces, seem to be few and far between.

[eatingupblacktop]

It doesn't concern me whether you believe me or not. You have no reason to either way. We've never met. Nevertherless, for your own safety and empirical inquiry, I urge you to research this topic a bit more. You might find yourself changing your mind.

[AHJGTA]

Had my encounter with black ice this morning.

Traction system was going nuts and the car still took about 3 car lengths to stop.

And then when I thought it was safely stopped, the front started swinging to the right and finally stopped about 4 inches away from the next car. The woman driving in it was not amused or reassured when I waved to her indicating that I was sorry.

I had the original Dunlops on the car and thinking that I should invest the money into tires rather than fixing dents I now have Michelin Primacy MXV4s. Traction control is not coming on as often and seem t have better control.

[eatingupblacktop]

That's exactly the situation where you want the best tire you can get. You can prepare for the snow you see on the road or coming down in a snow storm or the rain on the road, but black ice is invisible and it will bite your !Removed!. The only defence against it besides good tires is to ocassionaly check the grip you have by gently rocking your steering from side to side and to listen to the weather forecasts.

One time I was exiting the lodge of a ski resort in Quebec. The road out was all downhill. As soon as I got on it, I realized it was a sheet of ice. As I was moving down, I could see a lot of cars in the ditch on both sides of the road. Couldn't use the brakes at all. Would just start sliding. As I was picking up speed, I thought, do I head for the ditch now and minimize the damage or do I try to ride it out and take the chance of going off at a higher speed? Just as I was trying to decide what the hell to do, I noticed that in the middle of the road between the two lanes was a ribbon of snow. I put both my driver's side wheels on the snow and it kept me from going faster. Still couldn't use the brakes but made it all the way down. Could barely pry my fingers off the steering wheel when I finally came to a stop. Had winter treads. If I had all season or summer tires, I would have been in the ditch with the rest of them.

[new2mud]

That's exactly the situation where you want the best tire you can get. You can prepare for the snow you see on the road or coming down in a snow storm or the rain on the road, but black ice is invisible and it will bite your !Removed!. The only defence against it besides good tires is to ocassionaly check the grip you have by gently rocking your steering from side to side and to listen to the weather forecasts.

Yikes! Please don't test traction with steering--I'd hate to hear of someone doing that and wind up in the ditch or worse. If your car is equipped with ABS (i.e. all LS400s) then wait until you are on a straight stretch of road, check to make sure nobody is behind you, and jab the brakes with firm pressure, but not enough to wildly upset the balance of the car (in the event that road conditions are indeed slick). If ABS kicks in, then you know where your limit is. If you are truly on black ice, then you will get ABS response with VERY little pedal effort!

[new2mud]

When I see winter specialty tires being tested successfully against summer tires on an ice skating rink then, and only then, will I become a believer.

Believe it or not, there actually have been independent tests done in ice rinks (beyond the commercials or ads that were referred to above)--a quick search should uncover one.

I believe Tire Rack also did an independent (brand-agnostic) test--the results were surprising, with some of the best non-studded winter tires performing similarly (or better) than studded tires on ice, and of course much better in less adverse conditions where studs greatly reduce braking ability and cornering traction on dry or merely wet (not frozen) road conditions.

[eatingupblacktop]

That's exactly the situation where you want the best tire you can get. You can prepare for the snow you see on the road or coming down in a snow storm or the rain on the road, but black ice is invisible and it will bite your !Removed!. The only defence against it besides good tires is to ocassionaly check the grip you have by gently rocking your steering from side to side and to listen to the weather forecasts.

Yikes! Please don't test traction with steering--I'd hate to hear of someone doing that and wind up in the ditch or worse. If your car is equipped with ABS (i.e. all LS400s) then wait until you are on a straight stretch of road, check to make sure nobody is behind you, and jab the brakes with firm pressure, but not enough to wildly upset the balance of the car (in the event that road conditions are indeed slick). If ABS kicks in, then you know where your limit is. If you are truly on black ice, then you will get ABS response with VERY little pedal effort!

Sorry for the misunderstanding. What I meant was to slightly, and I do mean slightly, as well as gently, moving the steering wheel perhaps 1-2 degrees side to side to see where the grip is. Not enough to lose control and not in rush hour traffic. Braking can give you similar feedback but you run the risk of abruptly losing grip and entering a slide much more easily than by tweaking the wheel. The gist of it is to know what kind of traction you've got in adverse conditions rather than going out totally oblivious or unconcerned because you happen to have awd and mudders on and think you can get through anything without slowing down or being carefull. At the first big snowfall of each winter we see who's thinking and who's asleep at the wheel.

[wwest]

That's exactly the situation where you want the best tire you can get. You can prepare for the snow you see on the road or coming down in a snow storm or the rain on the road, but black ice is invisible and it will bite your !Removed!. The only defence against it besides good tires is to ocassionaly check the grip you have by gently rocking your steering from side to side and to listen to the weather forecasts.

One time I was exiting the lodge of a ski resort in Quebec. The road out was all downhill. As soon as I got on it, I realized it was a sheet of ice.

That's ALSO exactly the situation wherein I have often used, and highly recommend, the judious use of the e-brake provided it is rear implemented, as most are.

Slight, light, braking only on the rear tires will not only help to slow the vehicle, it will also act as something of a "drag" anchor, holding the behind "behind".

That also why ABS is so VERY important, there is no helping the fact that the front brakes exert most of the braking power but that also often means loss of directional control absent ABS, and sometimes even with.

And don't forget, if you happen to be driving a FWD or F/AWD, it might be a really good idea to QUICKLY slip the automatic transmission into neutral in order to avoid any level of engine compression braking. Possibly more importantly, with the transmission in neutral ABS can be fully functional.

As I was moving down, I could see a lot of cars in the ditch on both sides of the road. Couldn't use the brakes at all. Would just start sliding. As I was picking up speed, I thought, do I head for the ditch now and minimize the damage or do I try to ride it out and take the chance of going off at a higher speed? Just as I was trying to decide what the hell to do, I noticed that in the middle of the road between the two lanes was a ribbon of snow. I put both my driver's side wheels on the snow and it kept me from going faster. Still couldn't use the brakes but made it all the way down. Could barely pry my fingers off the steering wheel when I finally came to a stop. Had winter treads. If I had all season or summer tires, I would have been in the ditch with the rest of them.