Driving In The Snow

[SW03ES]

LOL, you're a mean man Jim ;)

[90LS400Lexus]

We do not get much snow here in northeast Tennessee, so its normally not an issue, but one time back when I had my 1990 LS400, I got caught out in a fast falling snow and I did not think we were going to make it home. I was spinning all over.

[vacation]

I have a '96 LS400 with Yokohama AVS V4 tires...I do not like the way it drives in the snow here in south central PA. Thankfully we have a second car, a Camry wagon, that we can use when there's snow or ice on the roads. If I had to drive the LS400 in the snow, I would definitely invest in a good set of four snow/ice tires.

[theoldpaths]

I have a 91 LS400 with Yokohama iceGuard IG10 on all four, and it is doing good so far here in Michigan. They got me to church Sunday morning after waking up to about 9 inches of new snow. I am really surprised at how good it is in the snow so far this winter.

[90LS400Lexus]

I do not even think that my current LS400 has ever even been in snow. It has been in central Georgia since it was brand new until about 3 days ago. It has it been in snow, it was very little and probably only during the superstorm of 1993 when GA had a heavy snow. <_<

[VBdenny]

I run BFG Traction T/A V's on my 400. Only driven a couple of times in any snow with them but they get pretty good traction. My car doesn't have TC but it does have a wicked positraction. Growing up near Lake Ontario where we often received over 480" of snow a winter, I learned to enjoy psotraction in snow. Sure it makes the back end get squirilly when you get on it, but it does dig in. I think positraction in snow can definitely scare those who are unfamiliar with winter driving but once learn it, it is a blast.

[Lexus ES300]

Mine is '95 LS from Canada. I live here in MI and we got a lot of snow, but it goes like a tank.

I have new Kelly Navigator tires and Traction Control.

[wwest]

If I remember correctly, South Bend is pretty flat coutryside, at least it was back in the late fifties, maybe Rochester Hill, MI, too.

Personally I would rather drive my RWD '92 LS400 with summer tires over any FWD or F/AWD equpped with the BEST winter tread, in adverse roadbed conditions.

[new2mud]

I run BFG Traction T/A V's on my 400. Only driven a couple of times in any snow with them but they get pretty good traction. My car doesn't have TC but it does have a wicked positraction. Growing up near Lake Ontario where we often received over 480" of snow a winter, I learned to enjoy psotraction in snow. Sure it makes the back end get squirilly when you get on it, but it does dig in. I think positraction in snow can definitely scare those who are unfamiliar with winter driving but once learn it, it is a blast.

AFAIK, LS400 weren't available from the factory with LSD--did you do some sort of retrofit/aftermarket?

[vacation]

... Only driven a couple of times in any snow with them but they get pretty good traction. My car doesn't have TC but it does have a wicked positraction. ...

Did you somehow add a limited slip differential to your LS400?

I agree, that a good LSD would certainly help with snow traction in any car and the LS400 would be no exception.

[sonyman]

If I remember correctly, South Bend is pretty flat coutryside, at least it was back in the late fifties, maybe Rochester Hill, MI, too.

Personally I would rather drive my RWD '92 LS400 with summer tires over any FWD or F/AWD equpped with the BEST winter tread, in adverse roadbed conditions.

That's just stupid. 99% of the time any car with winter tires will fare much, much better than a car with summer tires, especially an LS400. You would have practically NO traction at all with summer tires and an LS400 compared to a FWD or AWD car with winter tires.

EDIT: 12/19 4:48PM EST

I made an error above- fixed now.

[tcbted]

If I remember correctly, South Bend is pretty flat coutryside, at least it was back in the late fifties, maybe Rochester Hill, MI, too.

Personally I would rather drive my RWD '92 LS400 with summer tires over any FWD or F/AWD equpped with the BEST winter tread, in adverse roadbed conditions.

That's just stupid. 99% of the time any car with winter tires will fare much, much better than a car with winter tires. You would have practically NO traction at all with summer tires and an LS400 compared to a FWD or AWD car with winter tires.

I completely agree.

My LS400 has the same snows I used last year on my fwd STS. They are Goodyear Ultragrips, with very few miles on them.

The STS was unstoppable in deep snow, even on inclines.

We received well over 1ft of snow on Sunday, and all secondary roads had piles of snow and slush built up. I had to back up numerous

times, where the LS400 couldn't commit traction through the rear tires, even with 160lbs in the trunk. The wheels broke loose on the slightest of

hills, and snow mode/vsc made no difference at all.

I plowed, fishtailed, held my breath and made it home. Parked the beast, and went back out in my wife's SUV, which sliced through the

piles of snow with precision and never broke traction.

I've never felt this vulnerable in any fwd car.

Next winter, I'm throwing the Ultragrip's in the garbage and investing in something better. The Goodyears do not clear packing snow

from the tread very well, thus creating 4 slicks on a rwd platform.

I've owned 46 cars and lived in snow country all my life. I know how to drive safely in the snow, but the LS is one helluva challenge

in poor conditions.

[nc211]

my only advice about driving in snow/icey conditions, is to put the car in "n" when at a stop, otherwise the rotors can freeze and reduce the rear wheel's brakes ability to hold the car still. I got stuck for 12 hours a few years ago in an ice/snow storm, and the car would not stop creeping forward with just my foot on the brakes. I watched two guys slowly go into ditches because of this. An older Jag, and a GS300. Both looked at me like I was nuts when I was honking the horn and jestering to them to put the car in neutral. The look of sheer terror on their faces as they slowly went off the road was priceless.

[Robert Young]

I haven't had to deal with that question for a while, given where I live. However, when I was in Omaha (courtesy of the Air Force) nearly everyone had a spare set of wheels with snow tires. Back then it was generally just the rears, which had a really open tread. I have friends in Michigan that echo everything you read in AutoWeek, etc. about modern snow tires, which is put them on all 4 wheels. Good luck with the car!!

[tcbted]

For liability reasons, no reputable tire dealer up here will put snows on just two wheels.

Modern stability/traction/abs systems work best with matching treads.

Snows on just two wheels on fwd vehicles is insane ... completely changes the handling characteristics

of a car.

[wwest]

For liability reasons, no reputable tire dealer up here will put snows on just two wheels.

Modern stability/traction/abs systems work best with matching treads.

Snows on just two wheels on fwd vehicles is insane ... completely changes the handling characteristics

of a car.

Yes, just an the owners manual for any FWD or F/AWD vehicle will state, significantly higher traction at the front vs the rear can be HAZARDOUS. That's also why using tire chains only on the front driven wheels can be so extremely hazardous for someone with no experience.

On the other hand higher traction tires, studs, or tire chains only on the drive wheels of a RWD or R/AWD will handle quite nicely.

[wwest]

my only advice about driving in snow/icey conditions, is to put the car in "n" when at a stop, otherwise the rotors can freeze and reduce the rear wheel's brakes ability to hold the car still. I got stuck for 12 hours a few years ago in an ice/snow storm, and the car would not stop creeping forward with just my foot on the brakes. I watched two guys slowly go into ditches because of this. An older Jag, and a GS300. Both looked at me like I was nuts when I was honking the horn and jestering to them to put the car in neutral. The look of sheer terror on their faces as they slowly went off the road was priceless.

The situation you describe generally only applies to RWD or R/AWD vehicles with automatic transmissions, and not due to freezing of the rotors. When you have the brakes applied when stopped, or more likely when creeping forward slowly, on an extremely slippery surface the front wheels, due to heavier braking capability, components, will come to a complete stop more easily than the rear wheels. rear wheels which are still being driven even with the engine at idle.

The result, generally, is that unbeknownst to the driver the rear wheels are turning ever so slightly and with any sort of lateral banking of the roadbed the vehicle will slide off sideways.

Obviously this is not very likely to happen with a FWD or F/AWD vehicle.

[wwest]

If I remember correctly, South Bend is pretty flat coutryside, at least it was back in the late fifties, maybe Rochester Hill, MI, too.

Personally I would rather drive my RWD '92 LS400 with summer tires over any FWD or F/AWD equpped with the BEST winter tread, in adverse roadbed conditions.

That's just stupid. 99% of the time any car with winter tires will fare much, much better than a car with summer tires, especially an LS400. You would have practically NO traction at all with summer tires and an LS400 compared to a FWD or AWD car with winter tires.

EDIT: 12/19 4:48PM EST

I made an error above- fixed now.

Actually, if you think about a bit more deeply, my summer tires will often have MORE traction, more CONTACT surface area, than ANY highly "siped", or "blocked" tread, winter tire. Your winter tires will be advantagous only if the roadbed surface has some "looseness".

So, 99% of the time on dry, wet, icy, or packed snow my summer tires will OUTSHINE your winter tires.

But, yes, I'd even give you 100% on a loose snowy (wet or dry snow) surface.

And just as driving a 4WD/4X4 down the road, slippery road, with the center diff'l still locked is patently unsafe, so is a FWD or F/AWD for the very same reasons. The difference is the 4WD/4X4 driver probably knows to unlock the front drive from the rear, and can do so, whereas the FWD or F/AWD owner cannot.

Both are quite good, exceptionally so, for getting up and going initially, but just as leaving the 4WD/4X4 in locked mode once underway would be potentially hazardous, so is your FWD or F/AWD.

So yes, my RWD might be a bit harder to get up and moving initially, or maybe not at all, but once underway it isn't patently unsafe.

But yet again. yes, winter tires will always outperform summer tires for roadbed traction if conditions are favorable. But what I was pointing out is that I would rather be on the road with my RWD and summer tires than a patently unsafe FWD or F/AWD (of a 4WD/4X4 "locked") even equipped with STELLAR perfprming winter tires.

IMMHO it's best to leave the front wheels for directional control and the rears for "drive".

PERFECT BALANCE...!!

Well no, perfect balance would be with the engine at the rear.....

[new2mud]

Actually, if you think about a bit more deeply, my summer tires will often have MORE traction, more CONTACT surface area, than ANY highly "siped", or "blocked" tread, winter tire. Your winter tires will be advantagous only if the roadbed surface has some "looseness".

So, 99% of the time on dry, wet, icy, or packed snow my summer tires will OUTSHINE your winter tires.

Wow, WWEST--you normally have some really good wisdom here, but the comment above is flat out dangerous.

Sure, summer tires may have more contact surface area, but the compound makes all the difference in the world, and any summer tire is patently dangerous in any icy, snowy, or even cold conditions. Summer tires are made of a softer compound, that while excellent in warmer, drier weather, gets very hard in colder temps--even on dry roads in cold weather, summer tires suffer traction greatly.

I don't know what magical summer tires you have that you claim "outshining" winter tires, but in cold weather, whether dry, wet, icy, packed snow, or fresh snow, summer tires are far inferior to dedicated snow tires. Period.

I live in an area where we get 90+ degrees in the summer and over 350 inches of snow per winter. It would only take you 1 drive on summer tires in the winter to swap them out immediately for dedicated snow tires. I run ultra high-performance summer tires in the summer, but when temps drop, I run dedicated winter tires. The LS400 is a real handful (and dangerous) on the summer tires in winter, and plows through anything winter can throw at it when running dedicated snow tires (combined with TRAC).

[landar]

Actually, if you think about a bit more deeply, my summer tires will often have MORE traction, more CONTACT surface area, than ANY highly "siped", or "blocked" tread, winter tire. Your winter tires will be advantagous only if the roadbed surface has some "looseness".

So, 99% of the time on dry, wet, icy, or packed snow my summer tires will OUTSHINE your winter tires.

Wow, WWEST--you normally have some really good wisdom here, but the comment above is flat out dangerous.

Sure, summer tires may have more contact surface area, but the compound makes all the difference in the world, and any summer tire is patently dangerous in any icy, snowy, or even cold conditions. Summer tires are made of a softer compound, that while excellent in warmer, drier weather, gets very hard in colder temps--even on dry roads in cold weather, summer tires suffer traction greatly.

I don't know what magical summer tires you have that you claim "outshining" winter tires, but in cold weather, whether dry, wet, icy, packed snow, or fresh snow, summer tires are far inferior to dedicated snow tires. Period.

I live in an area where we get 90+ degrees in the summer and over 350 inches of snow per winter. It would only take you 1 drive on summer tires in the winter to swap them out immediately for dedicated snow tires. I run ultra high-performance summer tires in the summer, but when temps drop, I run dedicated winter tires. The LS400 is a real handful (and dangerous) on the summer tires in winter, and plows through anything winter can throw at it when running dedicated snow tires (combined with TRAC).

new2mud, I was under the impression from post #21 ("I've got them on my car, firsthand experience. It is summer now, and the smooth ride is, well,... smooth!") that you ran Noks all year round. No? What make are your summer/winter tires?

BTW, wwest is correct, that South Bend is pretty flat. So, I dont have to climb many high incline hills. At least not from a standstill. Plus, we get an average of 80 inches a winter, not really all that much. Being RWD, I was impressed with how well the LS went in snow with the Turanzas. I am not looking for Hummer-like performance here. Dont need it. In fact, I like a good excuse to stay away from the office and work from home :whistles:

[bossman]

I bought my 1997 LS400 used in December of 2003. At the time, it had Bridgestone Potenza all season tires on it and it was a heck of a winter getting used to RWD (it did come with traction control) with that much horsepower. I got some nice 1998 LS400 five spoke chrome rims on eBay that summer and put my all season tires on those rims, and then put some Kumho KW-11 winter tires on the original rims. It definitely made a big difference, and I would highly recommend the use of winter tires if you are going to be using your LS400 in the snow. Also, municipal and provincial snow removal crews use a lot of salt on our roadways, so putting away the nice chrome rims is a must - but the original alloy rims seemed to hold up ok. As mentioned by various members already in this thread, I found my LS400 to have the most problems in deep snow in unplowed parking lots and side streets. I got stuck several times over the years in my own apartment building parking lot. Eventually, I would be at the mercy of the snow plow to clean my parking lot so I could venture out. With the amount of snowfall we get up here, I would constantly worry that I would get stuck somewhere.

Living in Canada, I needed to find a solution to my winter driving dilemma ... so I recently traded in my LS400 on a 2003 Toyota 4Runner Limited V8 4WD. Sorry guys - I miss the luxury and prestige of my LS400, but I needed to get around in the snow! ;)

Cheers!

[wwest]

Actually, if you think about a bit more deeply, my summer tires will often have MORE traction, more CONTACT surface area, than ANY highly "siped", or "blocked" tread, winter tire. Your winter tires will be advantagous only if the roadbed surface has some "looseness".

So, 99% of the time on dry, wet, icy, or packed snow my summer tires will OUTSHINE your winter tires.

Wow, WWEST--you normally have some really good wisdom here, but the comment above is flat out dangerous.

Sure, summer tires may have more contact surface area, but the compound makes all the difference in the world, and any summer tire is patently dangerous in any icy, snowy, or even cold conditions. Summer tires are made of a softer compound, that while excellent in warmer, drier weather, gets very hard in colder temps--even on dry roads in cold weather, summer tires suffer traction greatly.

I don't know what magical summer tires you have that you claim "outshining" winter tires, but in cold weather, whether dry, wet, icy, packed snow, or fresh snow, summer tires are far inferior to dedicated snow tires. Period.

I live in an area where we get 90+ degrees in the summer and over 350 inches of snow per winter. It would only take you 1 drive on summer tires in the winter to swap them out immediately for dedicated snow tires. I run ultra high-performance summer tires in the summer, but when temps drop, I run dedicated winter tires. The LS400 is a real handful (and dangerous) on the summer tires in winter, and plows through anything winter can throw at it when running dedicated snow tires (combined with TRAC).

I don't make many wintertime trips back to central MT, Lewistown, but when I do I often find that my tire chains go up and over the snowy and ice covered Mmountain passes between Missoula and Great Falls (via Helena) while I get to watch the 4WD/4X4 struggling with their various forms of winter tires to get over those very same inclines. Anyone who has lived in MT, WY, area for a few winters knows there is NO substitute for tire chains, not even studs.

[wwest]

Actually, if you think about a bit more deeply, my summer tires will often have MORE traction, more CONTACT surface area, than ANY highly "siped", or "blocked" tread, winter tire. Your winter tires will be advantagous only if the roadbed surface has some "looseness".

So, 99% of the time on dry, wet, icy, or packed snow my summer tires will OUTSHINE your winter tires.

Wow, WWEST--you normally have some really good wisdom here, but the comment above is flat out dangerous.

Sure, summer tires may have more contact surface area, but the compound makes all the difference in the world, and any summer tire is patently dangerous in any icy, snowy, or even cold conditions. Summer tires are made of a softer compound, that while excellent in warmer, drier weather, gets very hard in colder temps--even on dry roads in cold weather, summer tires suffer traction greatly.

I don't know what magical summer tires you have that you claim "outshining" winter tires, but in cold weather, whether dry, wet, icy, packed snow, or fresh snow, summer tires are far inferior to dedicated snow tires. Period.

I live in an area where we get 90+ degrees in the summer and over 350 inches of snow per winter. It would only take you 1 drive on summer tires in the winter to swap them out immediately for dedicated snow tires. I run ultra high-performance summer tires in the summer, but when temps drop, I run dedicated winter tires. The LS400 is a real handful (and dangerous) on the summer tires in winter, and plows through anything winter can throw at it when running dedicated snow tires (combined with TRAC).

And just when was the last time you looked into rubber compounds of winter specialty tires vs summer tire compounds...??

Twenty or so years ago, or certainly even more, your statement would be correct, winter specialty tires had differing formulation for the rubber. But competition has now run its course and since those specialty tires didn't cover many miles when compared to summer tires the winter formulation technique has been dropped in favor of the winter times having mileage ratings equal to their summer counterpart.

As an example back in the sixties if your winter tires outlated the season you considered yourself lucky. Nowadays if the mileage achieved is at least close to taht of a summer counterpart its NO SALE.

If those winter formulations were still available, and available for my summer type tire treads, I would willingly consider switching each fall and spring.

[aarman4]

http://www.michelinman.ca/promo/2005_wintertips.html

I suppose we should report our friend Michelin to the BBB for lying about using different 'softer at colder weather' compounds in their winter tires when, according to you, and PLEASE correct me if I am wrong, that is completely untrue?

Perhaps over the past 20 years, with "competition now run it's course", they have given up on deleoping newer rubber technologies in winter tires, and only developed better rubber for their summer/all-season tires?

Mmaybe newer snow tires now afford more 'winter weather' grip now than they did years ago just because they do???

I suppose we could really get rich here by just creating a tire out of the same rubber that they make all-season tires out of, and putting a nice winter-style tread pattern on them and the underwriters would hand over that nice 'mountain snowflake' sign to us?

Oh wait, I forgot, that won't happen, because THE TIRES WOULD NOT GRIP AS WELL.

Oh well, we can all hope can't we?

[wwest]

http://www.michelinman.ca/promo/2005_wintertips.html

I suppose we should report our friend Michelin to the BBB for lying about using different 'softer at colder weather' compounds in their winter tires when, according to you, and PLEASE correct me if I am wrong, that is completely untrue?

Perhaps over the past 20 years, with "competition now run it's course", they have given up on deleoping newer rubber technologies in winter tires, and only developed better rubber for their summer/all-season tires?

Mmaybe newer snow tires now afford more 'winter weather' grip now than they did years ago just because they do???

I suppose we could really get rich here by just creating a tire out of the same rubber that they make all-season tires out of, and putting a nice winter-style tread pattern on them and the underwriters would hand over that nice 'mountain snowflake' sign to us?

Oh wait, I forgot, that won't happen, because THE TIRES WOULD NOT GRIP AS WELL.

Oh well, we can all hope can't we?

From the linked reference..:

"..Their Adaptive Progressive Stiffness (APS) rubber technology allows the unique compound to soften at the road's surface, while remaining ridgid near the tire belt, thus providing intense grip and superior handling in all winter road conditions --- even on dry roads."

Hmmm..."'superior handling" "even on dry roads."

So tell me, why would any tire manufacturer reserve such a formulation ONLY for winter tires..??

Or do they...??!!

Since the idea is to sell the public on buying winter tires why would the manufacturers tell us if the same "superior handling" rubber formulations aren't available for summer only tires?

I'm not by any means saying that winter tires shouldn't be used in climates where adverse wintertime roadbed conditions are the rule of the day, season.

And finally:

"superior handling" "even on dry roadbeds"...

Even on dry roadbeds...In comparison to what? Certainly not my "poorly" formulated summer tires. Were that the case why not run on winter tires all year around.