Tire Wear Irregular

[Roland Bauske]

The front tires on my 95' LS400 are wearing on the outside edge. The wear is not due to fast cornering because the car is driven easy. The wear is slightly cupped, not smooth. No other abnormal wear on the rest of the tire. This has happened on a set of Yokohama and Michelin tires. The dealer has checked the suspension and alignment. They say all is OK. I have never had this with any car or tire I have owned.

[bartkat]

Cupping can be caused by an unbalanced tire condition, faulty wheel bearings, loose parts, fatigued springs or weak shock absorbers. Check the condition of the shock by forcefully bouncing the front end of the car several times and releasing it on the down stroke. Failure of the vehicle to settle after two strokes suggests worn shocks or struts.

http://www.autoshop-online.com/cchtml/tire...re.wr.prob.html

[VBdenny]

bartkat, very few people can do a proper alignment. I've had dealers and other independents screw it up so bad that I wore tires out. Check around with people who you know, who know stuff about cars and see where they have been happy. Don't ever assume that because they "seem" to know what they're doing, that they do.

Perhaps you do have a suspension problem. You didn't mention how many miles you have, but around 100,000K plus, the 400's usually need new front torsion bars (they called it a strut), and the upper control arms start to fail. Uneven cupping on the outside usually involves a "toe out" problem. This could be a misalignment, or a wear problem on either of the components I mentioned. Unfortunetly, most alignment technicians aren't fully compenent, or lazy, and mis this. The Lexus is always pretty tight when sitting still, but under speed, the force pulls the ball joints, stuts, and control arms to their outmost wear limits.

The final though is this. I've seen bad shock absorbers cause similar problems. Just try to locate someone who is really good and they will find it.

Good luck.

Denny (VB)

[bbesser]

I just posted a similar question on the Wheels and Tires forum, only my LS is wearing on just the outer edge of right front tire. I had a Goodyear shop put on new tires and perform the 4 wheel alignment, but I can see wear after a week. I sure don't want to destroy these new tires...

The car is a '90, but I've only got 83K on it.

[SW03ES]

The LS is a !Removed! to align and balance, make sure you find someone who is aware of this. We can't even get a decent alignment for my dad's LS at a Lexus dealer, we take it to an independent shop.

My guess is its a balance issue, try rotating the tires and see if the problem follows a certain wheel, or if it stays right where it is. Any vibrations while driving?

[VBdenny]

Yeah it is. I had a hard time finding someone to do a decent alignment on my 92 Caprice. I had new Michelin X-Plus One's on to the tune of 430 bucks. I got a recommendation from someone and tried him. I had all the specs looked up ahead of time and he took the time to do it right (while I watched) Don't give me any BS about the "customer waiting area" What you do there is wait to get screwed! After examining the suspension on the 400 (from underneath) I realized it must be a bear to align properly. I had the dealer do it last year and I'm still not happy.

[Lexusing]

I have had a number of aligments done by dealer and by non dealer...I haven't had one that's done right the first time yet . They always seem to miss something. The most annoying thing is, they don't center your steering wheel for you And of course wasting your time to bring it back. Luckly I have not had to do one on my LS....

[kisik]

Back in the old country(Russia) I had 93' BMW 850. Driving those 12 cyl was better than having a woman cause lasted longer. Car had a really bad luck with one wheel. Very expensive studed snow wheel. After checking all mechanics, balance and etc..turned out there was an some sort of excident which even perfect allignment spec from Germany could not help based on shifted geometry on the first place.

[Roland Bauske]

Thanks for all the comments. My car has 60,000 miles on it. I rotated the previous set of tires and ended up with all 4 cupped on the outside edge. I replaced those Yokohama tires, not because they were completely worn, but because they were so noisy. They were replaced after about 30,000 miles.

[VMF]

do computerized wheel alignment! its only 50-80$ and it really helps!

[SW03ES]

VMF, glad to see you're back from the blackout!

The LS is hard to align even with the most advanced computer system.

[SRK]

In my shop I don't have the equipment to do alignments, at least more than a simple toe setting. I had to replace the inner and outer left tie rod ends shortly after buying my LS. So I install the parts and take the car to my pal who does all the alignments on my own and customers cars. He lets me at least watch, if not help a bit.

The LS alignment is very straight forward. As is typical with these well designed cars, the control arms are moved in and out with large eccentric washers on the mounting bolts, very similar to Mercedes Benz - probably a copy. Both front and rear are done this way. The alignment specs are all available, and there is nothing strange about them. Toe-in front and rear, camber nearly zero, caster positive. Big Deal.

Don't go to any shop that claims "these are tough cars to align". That would indicate they are the village idiots having found a new day job.

So for my $50.00 I got an excellent alignment with a print out of the angles before and after. It was done by my pal's newest employee, all of twenty-two years old.

The car is dead straight, tracks perfectly, steering wheel centered so well it surprises even me. The new tires are wearing perfectly. (run your hand across the tread, left to right, with your eyes closed, and you will feel any feathering or toe problems easily)

There is no magic or rocket science involved in this - just find a true professional who cares about his work, and wants repeat business.

[SW03ES]

I've never had any mechanic tell me that the car is hard to align, I've just only had one guy ever align it properly. Not a problem on my ES, or on my Explorer so it just shows that for some reason people have trouble aligning the LS properly. Be it that the LS is more picky about the alignment, you can feel it more when its off, whatever.

I definately agree the thing to do is find someone who takes pride in their work and wants repeat business. We did, and he aligns it fine now.

[VBdenny]

This is long. Sorry but you know how I get.

The person who does an alignment is the most important factor in getting stuff right. Certain standards must occur. There is suppose to be an exact amount of fuel in the tank. Trunk and car should be empty. Car must be bounced correctly to unload springs. Then it becomes set and check the components. And recheck and reset a couple of times. Most people are too lazy and just want your money.

WHAT THEY SET (you hope) DURING AN ALIGNMENT: Assuming no worn parts and good tires.

Caster: just like a furniture caster. The more postive caster (+) the easier the car is to steer at slow speeds without PS. Problem occurs at higher speeds as the car will not track easily. Negative (-) caster makes the car very difficult to turn at slow speeds, but makes it track (go straight) easily Power steering corrects that problem by using hydraulic assist to turn for you (iin a sense). That is why a car with PS is so difficult to turn when the PS is out (negative caster), but you can still steer an older car that doesn't have PS.

Camber: How much the top of the tires tip in as opposed to the bottom of the tires. Without going an looking up which is which, I'll say negative (-) camber is when the top of the tires are closer together than the bottoms. NASCAR uses intricate camber adjustments to allow the car to grip in the corners. Again, I forgot which way is which but you get the jest.

Toe: Toe in is when the fronts of the tires (leading edge) are closer together than the backs of the tires. Positive toe (called toe-in) helps keep the car from wandering, but too much will cause excessive wear on the outside of the front tires. Negative toe is when the tires are the opposite. This makes the car wander and wears on the inside edges of the tires.

As far as I can tell, four wheel alignments incorporate back tire locations into the equation. Beyond that, I have no idea. I do know that by doing so, it costs more. Perhaps because it sounds more technical?

When you get cupping (where it feels scalloped) it is usually due to one of the compents of the suspension being worn, or sometimes very worn shock absorbers.

The reason finding a decent alignment is so difficult is that many service technicians do what is commonly refered to in the industry as being a "toe and roll." This means, they set the toe-in to specifications and "roll" it out to the customer pick-up area. Quick money. Others, hook up the laser projectors (impressing most onlookers) and "set it to specs." Great, except that each time you adjust one thing, it changes others which must then be readjusted. Finding soemone to take the time to repeat the process several times requires first that they understand, and second that you bribe them. Money works well. I slide my alignment guy a picture of Andrew everytime because he lets me watch and be involved.

The best advise I can offer is to study how suspensions and alignments are done so that YOU are knowledgeable. and then know it. If they have the right attitude and G.A.S. you will get a quality alignment.

MOST IMPORTANT RULE OF ALIGNMENTS: If you car does not have an alignment problem, and you tires are not wearing. DO NOT let anyone align your car. I've gone 125,000 miles with my Caprice without an alignment, after wearing out two sets in short order previosuly. I've turned down many "free" offers. It wasn't broke, so didn't fix

Sorry to ramble on, but perhaps it will help someone. I learned the hard way years ago.

Denny

[SW03ES]

MOST IMPORTANT RULE OF ALIGNMENTS: If you car does not have an alignment problem, and you tires are not wearing. DO NOT let anyone align your car. I've gone 125,000 miles with my Caprice without an alignment, after wearing out two sets in short order previosuly. I've turned down many "free" offers. It wasn't broke, so didn't fix it.

Yep, this is good info my mechanic gave me some time ago. I asked him to go ahead and do an alignment, he asked "Does it seem off, drift or anything" I said "No, but go ahead and set it to make sure its right" he said "No reason to do that unless there's a problem, its a waste of money and it just chances that somebody will screw it up"

Good advice from a good mechanic more concerned with keeping my business than making a fast buck. He could have just charged me $70 for that alignment and I'd have been happy to pay it.

[SRK]

Toe is neither positive nor negative - it is toe-in or toe-out. The machines commonly indicate one or the other with plus and minus symbols, which is where some folks get this idea.

ANY car with independant rear suspension MUST have a four wheel alignment. Waste of time to do otherwise. ANY good tech will put the heads on the rear axle of ANY car even if it doesn't have independant rear suspension to check what is called "set-back" which is the angle, or perpendicularity, of the rear axle.

The change of angles as the alignment procedes is normal, and accounts for the sequence which is followed in setting them. Any "tech" confused by this is no professional.

All alignments are preceded by a check of weights, pressures, linkages, etc. to ensure that the alignment will be possible. If a ball joint is worn, or a tie rod end, all the aligning in the world goes to waste.

As cars are driven the angles change with normal and acceptable wear, and of course we hit bumps and thump the car around a lot. So after some miles are racked up, an alignment is a good thing even if the car feels fine. Four to five year interval is a good one to follow. The pre-alignment check will go a long way to ensuring safety. And as the car wears slowly, most drivers never notice the change, and when asked always say everything is fine. Some of the stuff I see is incredible. Tie rods about to drop out, ball joints about to separate, and the owners (otherwise intelligent and sensitive people) never complain about "looseness". Go figure.

[VMF]

SWO thanks for the welcome back btw, just saw ur post:) it was kinda fun drivin with no traffict lights last nite he he

[132]

One thing that I have not seen mentioned in the prevous replies is in regard to certain situations that will cause this type of wear on an LS400, or any other rear-drive Lexus vehicles. These cars run a very large amount of caster, in order to provide good stability at the high speeds that they are capable of. Because suspension geometry is a compromise, this high positive caster causes the tires to sit on the edges of the tread when at high steering angles (turn your wheels all the way in either direction to see this). Therefore, if the car is driven frequently in parking lots or does a lot of u-turns, the inside or outside edges can wear rapidly. This is true even if the alignment is perfect. Michelin Energy MXV4 Plus tires are by far the best at resisting this, and are well worth the money. Good luck.

[SW03ES]

No problem VMF, how were things up there? From what I heard everyone handled it fine, like one big sleepover in NYC lol.

Very good point 132, in fact I was trying to get just that point across to someone in the ES forum.