Service Help

[Sweet95LS400]

Well I recently took my car in for the 90k service at the dealer. I had made a list of items that I wanted completed as I wasnt sure what their procedure for the 90k service involved. Well I picked up the car when it was done and went over the list with the service advisor. While the major items were completed (water pump, timing belt, spark plugs, coolant flush) I was very dissapointed to hear that the other items on my list were not completed as I had requested. I had asked for the cam seals, crank seal, tensioner, and pulley to be replaced while they were in there. The service advisor said they were all fine and didnt need to be done.

I am very concerned, those seals are going on 11 years old now and dont leak today but I am sure it is only a matter of time. The pulley and tensioner are a bigger concern for me as I was reading some other posts about these items going bad on slightly higher mileage cars and destroying the timing belt. I paid a generous price for the service as it was done at the dealer, thinking they would do the best job. I could have taking it to a local mechanic and had it done cheaper and supplied the parts (saved even more money) but I didnt want my car to be a learning experience as we dont have many Lexus here in town and when I talked to my normal mechanic, they had never worked on an LS before.

So herein lies the problem, what do I do now? Do I go back to the dealer and explain my frustration? Or do I just live with it and hope that those parts last another 90k before they are due to be replaced?

I have some other small issues to talk to them about anyway, they overfilled my oil and now the car puffs a little cloud of blue smoke when I start it first thing in the morning and when I checked the coolant level, it was pretty low, I topped it off. There is also now a small coolant leak from one of the hoses on the top of the engine that wasnt there before.

[sv7887]

Well I recently took my car in for the 90k service at the dealer. I had made a list of items that I wanted completed as I wasnt sure what their procedure for the 90k service involved. Well I picked up the car when it was done and went over the list with the service advisor. While the major items were completed (water pump, timing belt, spark plugs, coolant flush) I was very dissapointed to hear that the other items on my list were not completed as I had requested. I had asked for the cam seals, crank seal, tensioner, and pulley to be replaced while they were in there. The service advisor said they were all fine and didnt need to be done.

I am very concerned, those seals are going on 11 years old now and dont leak today but I am sure it is only a matter of time. The pulley and tensioner are a bigger concern for me as I was reading some other posts about these items going bad on slightly higher mileage cars and destroying the timing belt. I paid a generous price for the service as it was done at the dealer, thinking they would do the best job. I could have taking it to a local mechanic and had it done cheaper and supplied the parts (saved even more money) but I didnt want my car to be a learning experience as we dont have many Lexus here in town and when I talked to my normal mechanic, they had never worked on an LS before.

So herein lies the problem, what do I do now? Do I go back to the dealer and explain my frustration? Or do I just live with it and hope that those parts last another 90k before they are due to be replaced?

I have some other small issues to talk to them about anyway, they overfilled my oil and now the car puffs a little cloud of blue smoke when I start it first thing in the morning and when I checked the coolant level, it was pretty low, I topped it off. There is also now a small coolant leak from one of the hoses on the top of the engine that wasnt there before.

Sorry to hear about your bad experience. Did you have them put in writing the additional things you wanted done? In any case, you should talk to the Service Department Manager. CALMLY (I know it's hard to do that, trust me I've been there) explain to the Service Manager that your expectations were not met, and that you had specifically mentioned that these things be done. From their view I don't know why they didn't do what you requested. It may have been a genuine attempt to save you money. (But then they should have deducted the service price accordingly) Or it could have been something a little more deceptive.

If it is a good dealer, they will offer to take the car back and make it right. If you are not satisfied with your experience call 1-800-25-Lexus and let them know of your dis-satisfaction. Lexus prides itself on Customer Service, and will try to help you out. If you make reasonable requests they will likely reciprocate.

Sorry to hear about your experience. I've been there before it wasn't pleasent. Don't let this stop you from enjoying your car!

-Sam

[alsalih]

Nothing to discuss, it's very clear, you specifically wanted those other items replaced (which is the right thing to do) and they didn't do them. Second, they're workmanship is not to standard and your going to need to go back to get the leaking hose taken care of. Third, overfilling the car with oil can contaminate and damage your oxygen sensors, will they compensate you for that if that happens, I doubt it. Take it back ASAP and have them fix everything!

[Sweet95LS400]

When I talked to the service advisor, their reasoning for not replacing the seals and pulley/tensioner were that they didnt need replaced. Everything was in fine working order and the seals were not leaking.

[alsalih]

But you didn't ask for their opinion, you asked for them to be replaced. Your willing to pay extra for preventative maintenance because you know very well that these seals will likely leak before the next water pump timing belt job. You clearly don't want to pay $700+ for them to replace these seals if they start leaking in 10K miles from now, when they could have easily replaced them when they were in there. The dealerships near me use the same philosophy, they're not doing it to save you money, they're doing it because they know very well that you'll be back paying them to replace the seals.

[THE ONE]

When I talked to the service advisor, their reasoning for not replacing the seals and pulley/tensioner were that they didnt need replaced. Everything was in fine working order and the seals were not leaking.

I agree with alsalih said. You should take the car back and make them to fix it...

[nc211]

But you didn't ask for their opinion, you asked for them to be replaced. Your willing to pay extra for preventative maintenance because you know very well that these seals will likely leak before the next water pump timing belt job. You clearly don't want to pay $700+ for them to replace these seals if they start leaking in 10K miles from now, when they could have easily replaced them when they were in there. The dealerships near me use the same philosophy, they're not doing it to save you money, they're doing it because they know very well that you'll be back paying them to replace the seals.

I agree too! These cars are so well built that it almost REQUIRES human error to break them. Sweet, you're lucky because you found this site, and have the knowledge of true professionals "owners". Tell the service advisor to save the song and dance routine for the other poor saps who don't know this fact, and that you want what you came in there for.

[Sweet95LS400]

This is my first time at this dealer. I dont want to make it seem like I am being difficult, but I plan on keeping the car for a long time but I dont want to have to pay for service of items that I requested be taken care of previously. They were quick to point out I needed new lower ball joints and replaced them, but the items I requested to be serviced they pretty much ignored.

[SRK]

As far as the oil seals are concerned, I would be pleased that a dealer mechanic had decided to not replace seals that show no problems. They obviously believe in "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". That's good.

There are times when their professionalism may outweigh your requests. Certainly that has been the case over the years when I repair cars for people. If they want certain things done that don't need doing, and I judge those things to be unrequired, I explain that to them. If they insist, I send them elsewhere. I have a list of "shops" they can go to.

Overfilling the oil and a loose hose connection are things they should be told of, and they should attend to them. Coolant levels will change as the air works it way out of the system and they should have told you that it is normal for the level to drop a bit in the next couple of days, and to not be alarmed.

[Sweet95LS400]

I do appriciate their honesty and good service they have provided. But I am just concerned about those items. Do you think that within the next 90k the tensioner and pulley will be ok? I am not concerned so much about them not doing it but rather that now those components may fail within the next year or two and I will be forced to pay for their replacement and possibly more if other items are damaged as a result.

[blake918]

I'd go back and make them do what you originally asked. This is the same song and dance that I had with my car as far as the cam and crank seals are concerned. They looked fine when we changed the timing belt the first time. About 15k miles later, I had wicked oil leaks. Those seals need to be changed; they are one of those items to expect to fail. It's not a question of if they will leak, but one of when will they start leaking. Your car is 11 years old, and those seals are brittle and old. I have never ever heard of a Lexus dealer not lumping the timing belt, tensioner, pulleys, water pump, and oil seals all together in the big 90k service, especially since the prices of those parts are negligible in comparison to the labor costs.

It sounds like your advisor had good intetions, but if he/she has been working there for more than a week, they would know that of the very few issues on a LS, those seals are in that group. It's not like you were asking anything unreasonable of them like rebuilding a good tranny or something like that. I could see an experienced dealer tech changing the seals, tensioner, and idler pulleys in an hour +/- after the timing belt is fully exposed. Will you end up on the side of the road one day because of them not changing the requested parts? It's not likely, but you asked them to change those parts, it's a very reasonable request, and they should have done it for you.

[dcfish]

I'd go back and make them do what you originally asked. This is the same song and dance that I had with my car as far as the cam and crank seals are concerned. They looked fine when we changed the timing belt the first time. About 15k miles later, I had wicked oil leaks. Those seals need to be changed; they are one of those items to expect to fail. It's not a question of if they will leak, but one of when will they start leaking. Your car is 11 years old, and those seals are brittle and old. I have never ever heard of a Lexus dealer not lumping the timing belt, tensioner, pulleys, water pump, and oil seals all together in the big 90k service, especially since the prices of those parts are negligible in comparison to the labor costs.

It sounds like your advisor had good intetions, but if he/she has been working there for more than a week, they would know that of the very few issues on a LS, those seals are in that group. It's not like you were asking anything unreasonable of them like rebuilding a good tranny or something like that. I could see an experienced dealer tech changing the seals, tensioner, and idler pulleys in an hour +/- after the timing belt is fully exposed. Will you end up on the side of the road one day because of them not changing the requested parts? It's not likely, but you asked them to change those parts, it's a very reasonable request, and they should have done it for you.

I concur w/Blakes comment, Take it back and kindly let them know that you want the predescribed service done. I can only imagine that the service writer went by the book and not with your demands. After all as the owner and payer of asked for services you are in the right. Bring it back and enjoy the doughnuts and coffee. ;)

[Kennyr]

Did you ask for a price to replace those items or did you just tell them to do it at any cost? This sounds fishy. Why would they not want to take more of your money? I think either the writer or the tech overlooked your request and now they are covering their butts by telling you this story hoping you will just go away. Make them put in writing that they will fix these things in the future when they fail if they dont want to do it now.

[Threadcutter]

As far as the oil seals are concerned, I would be pleased that a dealer mechanic had decided to not replace seals that show no problems. They obviously believe in "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". That's good.

There are times when their professionalism may outweigh your requests. Certainly that has been the case over the years when I repair cars for people. If they want certain things done that don't need doing, and I judge those things to be unrequired, I explain that to them. If they insist, I send them elsewhere. I have a list of "shops" they can go to.

Overfilling the oil and a loose hose connection are things they should be told of, and they should attend to them. Coolant levels will change as the air works it way out of the system and they should have told you that it is normal for the level to drop a bit in the next couple of days, and to not be alarmed.

S:

I greatly appreciate your honesty and integrity, but I must respectfully disagree with you on this one. The dealer could not possibly know what the condition of the seals are without removing the cam sprockets and the harmonic balancer. Their condition cannot be seen with those items in place. Additionally, I don't think I would rely on visual inspection (ie; "they look fine to me"..........) as the ultimate determining factor. As has been discussed here many times, the minimal cost of three seals is far outweighed by the labor costs to gain access to them.

I am not sure that I would immediately assume that the dealer is trying to screw anybody, but I would be extremely upset that they did not follow my instructions/do what they agreed to do. Conversley, now he has a situation where he has to go back to the dealer & convince them to change the seals.

If I was in his shoes, I'd do everything I could to get them to do the labor for free because it was covered under the previous work order, but also add labor for removal/replacement of the seals. It would not be fair to expect that part for free.

Provided the dealer agreed, I'm not sure I'd ever feel comfortable that they actually did the work. Some have said that they think the dealer is "cultivating future repair business" & I would have a difficult time arguing against that. Something does indeed smell fishy here.........

I've turned into a "path of least resistance" kind of guy. When I first bought my '95, I purchased it with the knowledge that the P/S system needed attention. My Indie quoted me $1,750.00. And yes, he had the car to look at in order to provide the estimate. He's not my Indie any longer. I fixed the problem for about $300.00 total. And yes, I called him and let him know. I have the impression that he's now big enough that he no longer needs some or all of the customers that got him there. That's fine, good for him, but I will never put myself at the mercy of dealers or Indies that appear to be conducting themselves "extra-ethically"............

As far as the question of "will the seals last another 90,000 miles?".........

For 35'ish bucks (parts cost), why risk it?.......Replace them.

This is my first time at this dealer. I dont want to make it seem like I am being difficult, but I plan on keeping the car for a long time but I dont want to have to pay for service of items that I requested be taken care of previously. They were quick to point out I needed new lower ball joints and replaced them, but the items I requested to be serviced they pretty much ignored.

Sweet:

How many hours labor did they charge your for the replacement of the lower ball joints?

Hours each or hours per pair is fine, just let me know which it is.

As far as the oil seals are concerned, I would be pleased that a dealer mechanic had decided to not replace seals that show no problems. They obviously believe in "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". That's good.

There are times when their professionalism may outweigh your requests. Certainly that has been the case over the years when I repair cars for people. If they want certain things done that don't need doing, and I judge those things to be unrequired, I explain that to them. If they insist, I send them elsewhere. I have a list of "shops" they can go to.

Overfilling the oil and a loose hose connection are things they should be told of, and they should attend to them. Coolant levels will change as the air works it way out of the system and they should have told you that it is normal for the level to drop a bit in the next couple of days, and to not be alarmed.

S:

I greatly appreciate your honesty and integrity, but I must respectfully disagree with you on this one. The dealer could not possibly know what the condition of the seals are without removing the cam sprockets and the harmonic balancer. Their condition cannot be seen with those items in place. Additionally, I don't think I would rely on visual inspection (ie; "they look fine to me"..........) as the ultimate determining factor. As has been discussed here many times, the minimal cost of three seals is far outweighed by the labor costs to gain access to them.

I am not sure that I would immediately assume that the dealer is trying to screw anybody, but I would be extremely upset that they did not follow my instructions/do what they agreed to do. Conversley, now he has a situation where he has to go back to the dealer & convince them to change the seals.

If I was in his shoes, I'd do everything I could to get them to do the labor for free because it was covered under the previous work order, but also add labor for removal/replacement of the seals. It would not be fair to expect that part for free.

Provided the dealer agreed, I'm not sure I'd ever feel comfortable that they actually did the work. Some have said that they think the dealer is "cultivating future repair business" & I would have a difficult time arguing against that. Something does indeed smell fishy here.........

I've turned into a "path of least resistance" kind of guy. When I first bought my '95, I purchased it with the knowledge that the P/S system needed attention. My Indie quoted me $1,750.00. And yes, he had the car to look at in order to provide the estimate. He's not my Indie any longer. I fixed the problem for about $300.00 total. And yes, I called him and let him know. I have the impression that he's now big enough that he no longer needs some or all of the customers that got him there. That's fine, good for him, but I will never put myself at the mercy of dealers or Indies that appear to be conducting themselves "extra-ethically"............

As far as the question of "will the seals last another 90,000 miles?".........

For 35'ish bucks (parts cost), why risk it?.......Replace them.

This is my first time at this dealer. I dont want to make it seem like I am being difficult, but I plan on keeping the car for a long time but I dont want to have to pay for service of items that I requested be taken care of previously. They were quick to point out I needed new lower ball joints and replaced them, but the items I requested to be serviced they pretty much ignored.

Sweet:

How many hours labor did they charge your for the replacement of the lower ball joints?

Hours each or hours per pair is fine, just let me know which it is.

Excuse me, I mis-spoke............The main seal cannot be seen with the main (timing belt) sprocket in place, not the harmonic balancer.

[Sweet95LS400]

I will have to look at the invoice to see exactly how much it was, but between the lower ball joints and install labor I remember being around $600. I am nervous now that if I take the car back, they will tell me they replaced the items and really didnt. If they do agree to do the work, should I ask for the old parts?

[Leadfoot]

For true happiness you must stick to your convictions. You asked for the work to be done while the thing was apart, which is perfectly sensible. NO mechanic I know would skimp on such a simple request. My money is on a communication error that meant the job wasn't added to the standard 90K service.

Go back in there and calmly, but strongly remind them of how much money you spent with them and that the job is well below the standard requested and paid for. I would remind them that getting the simplest task wrong by overfilling the oil means they have some issues as far as factory procedures and you will not settle for anything less and are willing to persue this issue till its resolved.

Anything you can prove in writing or get in writing is heavy weaponary, useful if things get ugly, but they shouldn't if you approach them with a determined stare!!!!

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

P.S. we are all experimenting on the service life of these cars, hard to predict failure rates accurately since so many factors influence, level of maintenance, climate, useage, drivers foot weight........

[nc211]

Sweet:

How many hours labor did they charge your for the replacement of the lower ball joints?

Hours each or hours per pair is fine, just let me know which it is.

I wouldn't figure but 1 hour each. I changed mine in my driveway two weekends ago with nothing more than a pitman, floor jack and a ton of shop rags "they were torn and oozzing grease". Took no more than 90 minutes total. Of course that could of also been due to the gallon of coffee in my system too.

Anymore these days I have to physic myself up into an anger to fix the damn car. Usually requires lots of caffiene or alcohol. I've found I do better work on caffiene than alcohol. hahaha

[Threadcutter]

n;

I've found I do better work on caffiene than alcohol. hahaha

Should be:

I've found I do better work on caffiene, THEN alcohol. hahaha.........................

[nc211]

Not in my neck of the woods, ya'll.

[Leadfoot]

Thread spammers unite!!!! :whistles:

[Threadcutter]

I will have to look at the invoice to see exactly how much it was, but between the lower ball joints and install labor I remember being around $600. I am nervous now that if I take the car back, they will tell me they replaced the items and really didnt. If they do agree to do the work, should I ask for the old parts?

Sweet:

Yeah, I'm curious about the labor content/cost...........

Yes, you should absolutely ask for (demand & receive if necessary) the old parts back. I live in Washington State & it's law that they save the old parts & give them back to you. Chances are better than even that you have a similar law in PA.

If the "old" seals look "OK", don't second guess the decision to replace them. The new seals will give you a lot longer life than the old ones, end of story.

If I were in your shoes, I'd think seriously about finding another dealer or a good Indie. This whole thing smells.....

You might want to seriously consider subscribing to the Toyota/Lexus Service Manual website (c'mon guys, help me with the link) so at least you can read up on what a dealer/Indie is saying about what needs to be done.

[Leadfoot]

c'mon guys, help me with the link

OK http://techinfo.lexus.com/

[Threadcutter]

c'mon guys, help me with the link

OK http://techinfo.lexus.com/

Lead:

See how easy that was to answer?...........................

"Spammer?"........................Hah!

c'mon guys, help me with the link

OK http://techinfo.lexus.com/

Lead:

See how easy that was to answer?...........................

"Spammer?"........................Hah!

BTW:....................Thanks!

[Sweet95LS400]

The problem is, I am about 2 hours away from the dealer, I dont have a close Lexus dealer. Should I drive up there and present these items in person or do you think a call to the service manager would do?

Does anyone have any kind of written documentation from Toyota/Lexus recommending the replacement of those parts while the 90k service is being completed? Or is that just good practice?

[Shadow]

I believe there is no replacement interval for pulleys and seals, aka, inspect and replace only when necessary.

Perhaps you can leverage the price you paid for the service when negotiating with the service manager, if the price sound like it should includes installing the seals and pulleys, then raise hell with them. How much did you pay for the service?