Sea Foam

[nc211]

Not to spark an argument with Monarch as I have never had, and hope to never have an arguement with him.

But I cannot discount the thought and theory of the original engineers who designed and developed not only these engines, but all engines, that at some point in the process the finance department of the company did not come down and say "now guys, don't make this thing so good that we can't make some money off of fixing it either, and end up with a shelf full of new parts that nobody needs to buy". Case-in-point....GMC / Chevy trucks and all of their transmission problems that result in replacements. If some third party company designed a $20 bottle of some kind of magic guee that said "tired of fixing your chevy transmission? pour some of our $20 magic gue into the tranny and you will never have to fix it again, or we will unconditionally pay for a new OEM transmission to be installed by the dealership". I seriously doubt GM would put in thier owner's manual "At 30k, 60k, 90k miles, please add this additative to prolong transmission life".

Not to say all GM trannys are bad, some are pretty much bullet proof, but I think you get my point.

When Acura came on the scene back in 1986, they nearly went under because they stocked up too heavy on parts, anticipating problems with their 2 brand new cars, the Legend and Integra. They spent more money on parts for the Integra because they felt the market for them would be younger people, who drove harder. And, it was a buzzy, more wear and tear 4 cyclinder engine than the Legend's 2.5 V6. Well, they engineererd and built the Integra soooo good that nobody ever had to go back and fix the thing. Heck, I've actually seen people who have those cars drive them for 20k miles with no oil changes in between. Many beat to sh*t integras were sitting in my old college fraternity parking lot many moons ago, and not a single one of them ever broke.

[sha4000]

carbon build up is never a good thing for an engine so i would have to agree with TOYS and SK but monarch monarch most times you sound like you have good mechanical sense but other times you sound like you have too much faith in these engineers. if theengines were made so perfect there would be no reason to constantly make them BETTER. do you believe a toyota engine from the 80s is more efficient than the BEST toyota engine made today?

[monarch]

carbon build up is never a good thing for an engine so i would have to agree with TOYS and SK. You sound like you have too much faith in these [factory] engineers.

But TOYS and SK have not explained why the factory engineers warn owners not to use gasoline and oil additives. TOYS and SK havn't explained the specific short or long term consequences that can happen to an engine following their use.

Likewise there are owners on the forum who disregard the warnings of the Toyota engineers and advocate extending oil changes when using synthetic oil and who further say there are no consequences if an owner switches back and forth between synthetic and conventional oil. But these same owners can't tell you why the Toyota engineers warn against these practices.

[sha4000]

you might be correct, but why do toyoa engineers advie against gas & oil additives? as for the longer drain intervals, i havent commented on that, so i dont know why you would address that question to me. plus you still didnt answer my original question about an 80s toyota engine and todays toyota engine

[branshew]

But TOYS and SK have not explained why the factory engineers warn owners not to use gasoline and oil additives.

Are you saying that you can't figure that out on your own? It seems pretty obvious, but here's a thought - It's to cover their asses!

Let's face it - some additives are pure crap. Not all, but many are nothing but smoke and mirrors and a false panacea from snakeoil salesmen. (Slick 50 comes to mind as a recent one) There's probably a new additive out every month that is supposed to do something wonderful for your engine.

It's pretty obvious that Toyota (nor any other car manufacturer) doesn't have the time to test or verify all of the claims made by these additive producers. If they recommended one or didn't specifically say not to use them then some idiot somewhere would come crying back to Toyota when his engine fouled up after not following directions or using some snake oil. "You didn't say not to do it so it's your fault I need a new engine - I'm calling my lawyer."

and in order to end this debate.....

We'd all like to see some internal shots of your pristine, carbon-less 400K mile Toyota engine!

[Toysrme]

The short term consiquences of a gasoline additive are next to nothing. I honestly don't believe they do much, if anything, on Toyota/Denso/Nippon fuel systems.

AFA oil, there are little short term conciquences. As the oil pump mixes the entire mixture together, then circulates all of it, the entire mixture is thinned out to some degree. This increases the amount of oil actually pumping.

5W-30 + 1 quart of kerosene, or seafoam; remains thicker than the brand new 5w-20 Mobil1 Synthetic I currently have in my engine.

I am not talking about longer drain intervals. This thread is discussing the enourmous amount of *BLEEP* that builds up in the engine.

Until you take your engine apart, or give cleaning everything by hand, or by any other method a try monarch. Have no legitimate opinion to wether something causes a problem or not. You wouldn't know a perfect idle, a killer throttle transision, what the actual highest powerband, or best economy because you've not experienced it since your vehicle was in a new state.

I hate to say it... But as much as you hate the idea of someone cleaning their engine - by any means - you don't have a valid input one way or another. All you have, is a baseline of how your vehicles preforms now, against no cleaned state of your vehicle to check against.

[monarch]

You wouldn't know a perfect idle, a killer throttle transision, what the actual highest powerband, or best economy because you've not experienced it since your vehicle was in a new state.

I bought my two identical trucks brand new, one got driven 468,000 miles, the other sits mostly in the garage,

but serves as a baseline about how well a near new truck can perform. I've monitored fuel economy, power compression and emissions of both trucks since they were new. The 468,000 mile truck still idles as smooth as the low mileage truck and power and fuel economy continue to be like new, despite never having been treated with gasoline or oil additives.

To get to my house I have to climb a long 7% freeway grade nearly every day which requires near full throttle to maintain speed up the hill (if I use 5th gear). If my power was down, my speed up that hill would be down, but it hasn't gone down.

[Toysrme]

And monarch, unless you drive 400,000 miles in six months, like I said. You wouldn't know any of that if it bit you.

You have no comparison to a brand new, rebuilt, or atleast cleaned engine.

[sha4000]

pictures would be nice

[nc211]

Monarch....

step up and PROVE you statement.....or take a seat and enjoy the show.

Yes.....I AM calling YOU out!! I do think you are wrong here.....if that means we're against eachother...well so be it.

but you're saying some tall tale stuff with NO PROOF. SO, pony up the proof, and we'll stop asking.

How about some general pictures of all of your cars??

[monarch]

you might be correct, but why do toyota engineers advise against gas & oil additives?

The engineers say the additives "can be harmful to the fuel system and engine" but don't say specifically what the consequences could be. I'm just pointing out that the Lexus owners who disobey the engineers and go ahead and use gas & oil additives and / or advise others to do so don't know what the specific consequences could be either.

[SKperformance]

you might be correct, but why do toyota engineers advise against gas & oil additives?

The engineers say the additives "can be harmful to the fuel system and engine" but don't say specifically what the consequences could be. I'm just pointing out that the Lexus owners who disobey the engineers and go ahead and use gas & oil additives and / or advise others to do so don't know what the specific consequences could be either.

Thank dad (monarch) , like we really need or care to hear you and the owners manual.

I think most of us could figure out that adding them is at our own consequence .

Since you have no proof would you please stop posting on the thread for arguments sake of being devil's advocate.

[monarch]

We'd all like to see some internal shots of your pristine, carbon-less 400K mile Toyota engine!

I'm not saying I have a "pristine, carbon-less 400K mile Toyota engine". I'm just saying that the carbon that exists in my engine hasn't been causing pinging or preignition or a decline in fuel economy, power, compression, drivability, spark plug cleanliness etc.

As far as "proof" is concerned, well most of us know that if an engine is consuming excess gasoline it's also producing excess hydrocarbon emissions which in turn causes the EGR valve and pipes to become clogged with carbon and decreases the life of the catalytic converter. Now since my 468,000 mile engine still has it's factory original EGR valve and catalytic converter and still passes California smog testing, I believe that proves these components are still in good operating condition and in turn proves carbon deposits never caused my engine to burn excess gasoline.

[nc211]

Monarch, please post a picture of your cars, or please provide a link to your cars.... I want to believe you, but you need to show us a picture of these vehicles that you own.

[kcpth]

I'm not arguing with anyone. Nor am i trying to choose sides... as i'm sure the post will probably make it look so.

I just want to say is that most things you do to the car is at your own risks if you don't follow what the FSM states. But i'm sure we have the engineers dumping these things to their own cars.... even mechanics. Mechanics constantly tear down engines and put them back up... i'm sure someone would have said something about it. Granted i don't nearly have much of a mechanical knowledge nor have i driven a car that long.... but i'm ASSUMING Seafoam is a great product if applied correctly. I haven't heard that much negative comments about them... but who am i to judge. But i have heard many raves about it... not only from LOC... but from the outside world.

I'm not picking on u monarch or anyone for that matter. This is my assumption on the topic n for that matter. But Toys have shown something remarkable to me... n has some pictures for me to see. I dont know if i can do that to my own vehicle since i don't even know how to take the whole engine apart... but it shows that the product does work... if used properly... even if it was used improperly... he hasn't shown me n e thing that has been damaged YET. Who knows... perhaps u could b right 5-10 yrs down the line... n then u can tell us "I TOLD U SO."

U can leave the car as is... and do preventative measures. Nothing wrong with that... if u lose fuel economy etc... then fix it accordingly. If i put seafoam... i'm just purely taking the easy step out short of bringing to the mechanic. If a can that cost me $6 and can even help me a little... i wouldn't mind doing that... as i am poor as hell.

Speaking of which... does n e one know if i can put another treatments of Seafoam in my gas tank. The last time i put the treatment was 2 tanks ago... i dont know if it would do something. I'm going to do a partial tune up soon.

Thanks.

Tom

[Toysrme]

I, personally, don't care to see pictures. I know it's full with carbon from snort to snip. He may not have valve build-up looking like a funnel, but it's there.

My thing, is that he doesn't accept the fact that regardless of how often you change the oil, or what engineering Toyota does - oil splashes everywhere & coagulates & some of it builds up, and simply turning the key starts shoving carbon all back through the system, coating snip to snort in nasty !Removed! carbon.

How he cleans it, or if he ever does is his biz. He practices manually scrubbing his TB's. So regardless of what comes out of his keyboard, he knows all engines have carbon deposits problems from the intake down through the exhaust.

Including his 400,000 mile ones.

kcpth

AFAIK you can keep putting it in there. I dumped a whole can in the F150 & it had a light smoke until i filled up because it was double the recommended dose for awhile.

There is only one negative application of seafoam I know about, and it was on a Toyota truck. The guy dropped his intake line in a FULL seafoam can, it instantly sucked the entire bottle up, and hydrolocked a cylinder, killing a rod, or spinning a bearing (I forget exactly). Which is why if you look, I always suggest metering out 1/4-1/3-1/2 a can depending on displacement.

[Sweet95LS400]

You arent supposed to put the line in the can and suck it up that way, you slowly pour it in the line with it running and it more or less "sips" it.

[Toysrme]

Pour out a 1/3 of a can for a v6, 1/2 a can for a v8. Just stick your finger on the end of the brake booster line, drop it in your little container, take your finger off.

The problem I've found with pouring it in, is that people are slow. They'll *BLEEP* around for a min until the engine stalls, or take too much time to shut it off. The idea is for it to be sucked up, & not all burn off.