Love Lexus, Hate The Pricing Hassle.

[bem0626]

Resale value is not one of the things that I am basing my decision on and I intend to drive this car till the wheels fall off. Hopefully well after 100k!

How are you getting to $47,000 for an IS350?!?

Agreed, highest MSRP price I could get with the top package (Nav & the works!) for the IS 350 came to a total of $41,289...including destination.

BarrettF77 is correct about the pricing of the 350...my car has the luxury pkg w/ 18" wheels, Nav/ML, radar cruise and PCS, preferred accessory pkg, and spoiler and it came in just under $47000 MSRP, $46784 to be exact.

[James Willis]

What you have to understand is that buying a luxury car is different from buying a Dodge. I know you have an Acura, but I almost bought an Acura and its more similar to buying a Dodge than it is buying a Lexus, BMW, Mercedes etc. Its somewhat of a "you've got to pay to play" sort of thing and a "if you have to ask its too expensive" sort of thing too. Lexus dealers won't bend over backwards to sell you a car like a Dodge dealer will, no 0% financing, no games. They don't have to do those sorts of things to move product.

This may be the case with Lexus, but in general you can buy an Audi, BMW, Mercedes Benz for at most $500 over invoice. I test drove a MB C class on Saturday, very first thing the sales guy said to me after the drive is that he'd give me any car for $500 over invoice. I am interested in the IS 250 AWD which I also drove on Saturday, but Lexus will lose my business if the price doesn't settle down closer to invoice within a few months.

[lexus411]

Lexus doesnt have the cash back incentives these other dealer do to help sell cars. The car is selling because its a good car.

[James Willis]

Lexus doesnt have the cash back incentives these other dealer do to help sell cars. The car is selling because its a good car.

I understand that, and it is in pretty short supply. But MSRP for this car is (in my opinion) not competitive. Of course while they get 2 cars a month they will be selling them without probem, but assuming they want to sell a lot of cars at some point I assume they want to try and pull in a German die-hard like me. I didn't even want to drive the Lexus, but my girlfriend liked it, and I have to admit it was nice, if not a little soft on handling.

I like it but, and this is not intended as a flame, I don't like the sound of I drive a Lexus as much as I drive an Audi, BMW, Mercedes...

I only keep my cars for 3-4 years/25k miles so reliability is not my number 1 concern.

Again I am not trying to insult anyone, I was pleasantly impressed by the IS 250 AWD I drove and it certainly has a lot of toys. It definately thrust itself into the running.

[lexus411]

Its only not competitive when they are not selling. The customer sets the market. Lexus has always been the best buy for the dollar. The 350's like the GS 430 will never be a high production car. Dealers are always going to make the $ where the can. Im glad its not a high production car. It helps the car hold a little more prestige.

[James Willis]

Its only not competitive when they are not selling. The customer sets the market. Lexus has always been the best buy for the dollar. The 350's like the GS 430 will never be a high production car. Dealers are always going to make the $ where the can. Im glad its not a high production car. It helps the car hold a little more prestige.

Well restricting production actually means that the customer is not setting the market. Lexus can choose to sell a few at a high profit or a lot at a smaller profit. If demand is outstripping supply then Lexus are effectively following the first route. I hope at some point the "new" factor will wear off and they will have plenty of stock to sell.

Most car dealerships produce more cars than they can sell and then sell the remainder off at the end of the model year. But I can certainly walk into most dealers and choose from 50+ cars of the model I want on the lot.

Are you suggesting that Lexus is not going to do this? Are they trying to keep the numbers low or will the lots be full of them in 4 months?

[bartkat]

I don't think Lexus is purposely limiting supply. In fact I believe they have cranked up production at the 2nd factory. Sales appear to be far ahead of what they expected, so it's going to take some time to fill up the pipeline. Of course, you won't ever see 50 gen2 IS on some dealer's lot, but supply will catch up and demand will slack off a little. Probably in 6 months you'll be able to get better deals. It's obvious Lexus wants this car to be a hit after the dismal sales figures for the gen1 IS.

[LexTacoma]

two replys

to the person who said something about hopefully there will be a AWD version of the IS 350.

The IS350 won't have a AWD due to the fact that it already has VDIM (Vehicle Dynamic Management System) wear as the IS250 AWD does not have VDIM.

"Are you suggesting that Lexus is not going to do this? Are they trying to keep the numbers low or will the lots be full of them in 4 months?"

I don't know whether or not they are keeping them low, but I do know that there is a waiting list, and depending on the size of the dealership dictates how many vehicles they get per month. Our Dealership is currently like that with the 400h, I think we might have finally caught up with demand, but for a while there pretty much the instant they roll off the truck, they are sold.

Also, when you are looking for a deal, you have a better chance on a vehicle that is in stock vs one they have to order. If you want a black IS350 with all the bells and whistles, and the only one they have on the lot or on the way in the truck is a white IS350 w/o nav, you aren't going to get that awesome deal on the one they have to order you.

But it is like what SW03ES said "if you have to ask its too expensive," alot of dealers won't go below msrp, heck most won't go 500 over msrp depending on the vehicle.

[James Willis]

"Are you suggesting that Lexus is not going to do this? Are they trying to keep the numbers low or will the lots be full of them in 4 months?"

I don't know whether or not they are keeping them low, but I do know that there is a waiting list, and depending on the size of the dealership dictates how many vehicles they get per month. Our Dealership is currently like that with the 400h, I think we might have finally caught up with demand, but for a while there pretty much the instant they roll off the truck, they are sold.

Also, when you are looking for a deal, you have a better chance on a vehicle that is in stock vs one they have to order. If you want a black IS350 with all the bells and whistles, and the only one they have on the lot or on the way in the truck is a white IS350 w/o nav, you aren't going to get that awesome deal on the one they have to order you.

But it is like what SW03ES said "if you have to ask its too expensive," alot of dealers won't go below msrp, heck most won't go 500 over msrp depending on the vehicle.

Maybe Lexus are different from every other car manufacturer out there, but I imagine when the initial demand has slowed there will be plenty of vehicles available for well under MSRP. I would never pay more than 1000 over invoice, and if they can't do it for me I will buy a different car, I'm not so in love with it that I will pay over the odds for it. Saying that I have already been reading about people getting deals under $1000 over invoice on the new IS. I think they really want to get some decent volume on this car.

As for getting a better deal for a car on the lot, that can really go both ways, of course a dealer wants to sell a car they have clear it off the lot and get the cash that day. On the other hand a factory order is great for them because they increase sale numbers, make some money and have 0 days for that car on the lot which of course reduces cost for them. Generally speaking you can get just as good a deal on a factory order, unless they are trying to shift a lime green car with weird options that they just can't shift.

[James Willis]

The first dealership I talked to here in Chicagoland mentioned about 2k off MSRP of 40k

[BarrettF77]

Well guys, decided to stop back in and see what was going on. I orderd the charger 3 weeks ago. Should be in in about another month or so. Black fully loaded SRT 8 with navi and the other bells and whistles.

I am happy to see a lot of good topics coming up and that you guys agreed with me on height and this car just not being meant for that. I also was a bit disappointed in the fact that Lexus never even called me back on the deal as my sales person pretty much blew me off at the lexus dealer. Guess that goes to show you I made the right decision.

On a brigher note, the sales guy I am buying my charger from is doing a you scratch my back I will scratch yours kinda deal. Extended warranty, lighted doors sill SRT8, SRT8 mats, and cool air intake all at employee pricing. Not bad huh? Anyways, I will post pics when I get her in.

[SW03ES]

This may be the case with Lexus, but in general you can buy an Audi, BMW, Mercedes Benz for at most $500 over invoice. I test drove a MB C class on Saturday, very first thing the sales guy said to me after the drive is that he'd give me any car for $500 over invoice. I am interested in the IS 250 AWD which I also drove on Saturday, but Lexus will lose my business if the price doesn't settle down closer to invoice within a few months.

Not around here. Audis maybe, and definately C class Mercedes (you do realize that car is nearly 6 model years old right?), but BMW dealers would laugh you right out of the dealership if you asked for a deal like that. The IS is an all new car, and you can't expect them to offer the same deals as Benz does on an ancient model like the C-Class.

Remember that the demand varies market by market, that may be whats happening in your market but its not in mine and we have 5 fairly local dealers for competition. I personally find $1,000 under invoice impossible to believe on any Lexus, let alone the new IS.

[James Willis]

This may be the case with Lexus, but in general you can buy an Audi, BMW, Mercedes Benz for at most $500 over invoice. I test drove a MB C class on Saturday, very first thing the sales guy said to me after the drive is that he'd give me any car for $500 over invoice. I am interested in the IS 250 AWD which I also drove on Saturday, but Lexus will lose my business if the price doesn't settle down closer to invoice within a few months.

Not around here. Audis maybe, and definately C class Mercedes (you do realize that car is nearly 6 model years old right?), but BMW dealers would laugh you right out of the dealership if you asked for a deal like that. The IS is an all new car, and you can't expect them to offer the same deals as Benz does on an ancient model like the C-Class.

Remember that the demand varies market by market, that may be whats happening in your market but its not in mine and we have 5 fairly local dealers for competition. I personally find $1,000 under invoice impossible to believe on any Lexus, let alone the new IS.

Do you mean $1000 under MSRP? I was talking about $1000 over invoice. And I have already been offered $2000 under MSRP on an in stock IS as an initial offer.

As for BMW, you should be able to get a 3 series for a $500 over invoice if you work hard enough, but $1000 over should be pretty straightforward.

[SW03ES]

No I mean $1,000 under dealer invoice, thats what you said you could get an IS for which with my knowledge of Lexus pricing structures I don't believe, the dealer would be paying you to take the car in that scenario.

And a 3 series for $500 over invoice, the new 3 series that just came out? Not here, MSRP maybe a little below.

EDIT- Nevermind, I re-read what you said and you said less than $1000 over invoice, not $1,000 under invoice.

[James Willis]

No I mean $1,000 under dealer invoice, thats what you said you could get an IS for which with my knowledge of Lexus pricing structures I don't believe, the dealer would be paying you to take the car in that scenario.

And a 3 series for $500 over invoice, the new 3 series that just came out? Not here, MSRP maybe a little below.

EDIT- Nevermind, I re-read what you said and you said less than $1000 over invoice, not $1,000 under invoice.

Believe me you could get an 06 3 series for $1000 over invoice with almost no effort at all. As for the Lexus, the fact that I have already been offered 2k under MSRP (which is about $1500 over invoice) makes me believe that $1000 over invoice is getting closer day by day.

Maybe these prices are in Chicago because it has a lot of dealerships and they are more competitive. Go on the BMW forums and check out what people are paying if you don't believe me.

[SW03ES]

Maybe where you live, and if you just wanted a car off the lot, but thats certainly not the case here.

[Rx330driver]

just a little side note, the C class is not 6 years old...and they are making a new one for 2007/8. Merc fan here. lol

[bartkat]

If someone tells you they got a car for XXXX over invoice, then you have to ask them if they bought it outright or traded something in. Then you have to know what they got for their trade in. Then if they financed, you need to know the terms. All that info goes into the actual cost of buying the car. If all the variables aren't considered, then the XXXX over invoice price doesn't mean all that much.

[Vegas Guy]

Just purchased a IS350 with MSRP of 45k. Equipped with every option possible. I used to sell cars and tried my best to beat them up. After hours and 2 visits, they only lowered it by 1500 off MSRP.

[James Willis]

If someone tells you they got a car for XXXX over invoice, then you have to ask them if they bought it outright or traded something in. Then you have to know what they got for their trade in. Then if they financed, you need to know the terms. All that info goes into the actual cost of buying the car. If all the variables aren't considered, then the XXXX over invoice price doesn't mean all that much.

OK, well I am not familiar with how Lexus works, but they have a massive markup between invoice and MSRP.

For example a well-equipped IS 250 AWD has an MSRP of $39,630 and an invoice of $34,690, thats a whopping $5000!!!!!

Compare that to a BMW 325xi MSRP $40,145, invoice $36,825 difference = $3,320. That is $1,690 difference between the markups on those cars, and you don't think Lexus has more room to come down?

Even better if we look at Audi A4 2.0T Q with an MSRP of $39,635 and an invoice of $36,747 a paltry difference of $2,888, that is $2,112 difference between the markup on the Audi and the Lexus.

I am more familiar with German cars and in a standard situation (not an M3, not within the first 3 months of production) where each dealer has 25+ cars sitting on the lot and there are 6 dealers within 35 miles they are more than happy to make a clean $1000 (+ any secret dealer cash they are making).

I'm not sure why so many of you are opposed to the idea that you can bargain on your cars to get a better deal. yes if you bought your IS car within the first 90 days of production you probably paid a premium, but if you are telling me that the $5000 markup on these cars is not negotiable than I don't understand. They guy who offered me $2000 off anything he had in the lot or incoming knew he would still make $3000 profit, that is more than an A4 at sticker.

[bartkat]

If someone tells you they got a car for XXXX over invoice, then you have to ask them if they bought it outright or traded something in. Then you have to know what they got for their trade in. Then if they financed, you need to know the terms. All that info goes into the actual cost of buying the car. If all the variables aren't considered, then the XXXX over invoice price doesn't mean all that much.

OK, well I am not familiar with how Lexus works, but they have a massive markup between invoice and MSRP.

For example a well-equipped IS 250 AWD has an MSRP of $39,630 and an invoice of $34,690, thats a whopping $5000!!!!!

Compare that to a BMW 325xi MSRP $40,145, invoice $36,825 difference = $3,320. That is $1,690 difference between the markups on those cars, and you don't think Lexus has more room to come down?

Even better if we look at Audi A4 2.0T Q with an MSRP of $39,635 and an invoice of $36,747 a paltry difference of $2,888, that is $2,112 difference between the markup on the Audi and the Lexus.

I am more familiar with German cars and in a standard situation (not an M3, not within the first 3 months of production) where each dealer has 25+ cars sitting on the lot and there are 6 dealers within 35 miles they are more than happy to make a clean $1000 (+ any secret dealer cash they are making).

I'm not sure why so many of you are opposed to the idea that you can bargain on your cars to get a better deal. yes if you bought your IS car within the first 90 days of production you probably paid a premium, but if you are telling me that the $5000 markup on these cars is not negotiable than I don't understand. They guy who offered me $2000 off anything he had in the lot or incoming knew he would still make $3000 profit, that is more than an A4 at sticker.

Negotiate all you want and get the best deal you can. I'm just saying that you can't always go by the "deals" some buyers claim they got, because they don't give the total picture. Maybe you can get as new IS for $1000 above invoice come September if there are any out there that are equipped the way you want. Other than that, I wouldn't attempt to tell you anything.

[SW03ES]

just a little side note, the C class is not 6 years old...and they are making a new one for 2007/8. Merc fan here. lol

It came out in 2000 as a 2001, according to your math how old does that make it?

Of course they're making a new one for 08...it'll be 7 1/2 years old.

James, That is not a massive markup at all when it comes to vehicle profit margins. I'll have to look into it a little more closely but I think your exagerrating a bit on the differences. Theres more that comes into play as far as how a dealer makes its profit than simply invoice to MSRP, there's holdback, factory to dealer incentives, upsales comissions of financing options, how the trade worked and the profit margins there etc.

And again, nobody said you shouldn't negotiate to get the best deal you can on your new car. As a matter of fact I believe I said, repeatedly, simply that car sales is a locally driven market and what you can get in one market is not at all applicable to what one should expect to get in another market. For instance in metro Washington you will be laughed off the lot if you asked a salesman to do a new 3 series for $1000 over invoice, obviously thats commonplace in Chicagoland. My point is its pointless asking what others in other locations in the US are paying, because unless you're gonna buy it from a dealer and have it shipped it won't matter. In fact, even that wont matter because the dealer wont be able to service the car making the deal less attractive to them.

[SW03ES]

Here's a breakdown:

Lexus IS350

Base Price: $35,440

Invoice: $31,186

Total Profit: $4,254

BMW 330i

Base Price: $36,600

Invoice: $33,485

Total Profit: $3,115

Audi A4:

Base Price: $34,498

Invoice: $31,811

Total Profit: $2,687

Mercedes C350

Base Price: $38,150

Invoice: $35,480

Total Profit: $2,670

Obviously there's more profit in the Lexus than in the others (Save the Mercedes which has a holdback of 3% of the total MSRP instead of 2% of the base for the Lexus) but thats not automatically a reason to expect a significant, or any, discount. It all has to do with the demand in your particular market. The profit is there to encourage dealers and salespeople to sell the IS harder so that they can grow market share, and as a cushion to be able to reduce prices if they should need to. If they can sell the car to someone at MSRP, why would they sell it to you for less, unless they're making extra profit from your trade or financing as bart suggested? Just because they have the room isn't a good enough reason.

Have you heard about Edmunds True Market Value estimator, or TMV? It uses statistical sales data to extrapolate an average of what buyers are paying by zipcode. Might be interested to know it quoted $2,000 below MSRP for a 330i. It quoted MSRP with no discount for the IS350, in my marketplace.

[Rx330driver]

just a little side note, the C class is not 6 years old...and they are making a new one for 2007/8. Merc fan here. lol

It came out in 2000 as a 2001, according to your math how old does that make it?

Of course they're making a new one for 08...it'll be 7 1/2 years old.

James, That is not a massive markup at all when it comes to vehicle profit margins. I'll have to look into it a little more closely but I think your exagerrating a bit on the differences. Theres more that comes into play as far as how a dealer makes its profit than simply invoice to MSRP, there's holdback, factory to dealer incentives, upsales comissions of financing options, how the trade worked and the profit margins there etc.

And again, nobody said you shouldn't negotiate to get the best deal you can on your new car. As a matter of fact I believe I said, repeatedly, simply that car sales is a locally driven market and what you can get in one market is not at all applicable to what one should expect to get in another market. For instance in metro Washington you will be laughed off the lot if you asked a salesman to do a new 3 series for $1000 over invoice, obviously thats commonplace in Chicagoland. My point is its pointless asking what others in other locations in the US are paying, because unless you're gonna buy it from a dealer and have it shipped it won't matter. In fact, even that wont matter because the dealer wont be able to service the car making the deal less attractive to them.

noooo, it is not 6 years old, if you look at the 16 year model on their website, you can see that as 2001, it is still that boxy shape. Starting 2002, it gave this new redesign. So! its only 4 years old. Okay upon further research, the C230 was the boxy shape still in 2001, but anything higher had the new redesign. but still, thats only 5 years at most

[SW03ES]

Check it out:

http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/default....z&model=C-Class

Clearly shows the first year for the current bodystyle C class is 2001, coming out in July of 2000, or nearly 6 years ago.

All of this is beside the point, the point is that the C class is not nearly as new or as in demand as the IS or the 3, meaning you'll of course be able to get a better deal on one.