How Long Can The Water Pump Make It?

[backwoods lex]

New member here. I noticed the other day while revving my engine while under the hood that there is a rattle. I am assuming that it is the water pump. It isn't present at idle, but when I raise the RPM I can hear a noise that sounds like a woodpecker tapping on a hollow log. I can also smell antifreeze, but the level is fine and does not appear to be leaking. It has 89k and I am getting the TB and water pump changed next thursday, but I still need transportation. How safe is it to drive with the interference engine. Any estimates as to how long it can make it? Thanks in advance for any help.

[Toysrme]

It's fine. The water pump & TB should be changed every 90,000 miles. Many people have gona 150,000m on the OEM timing belt for whatever dumb reason. Many people have also gone over 200,000m on the OEM water pump. If you can't vouche that the coolant hasn't been flushed every other year, ditch the water pump & check the fins. They most likely have started corroding away from the anti-freeze.

Toyota is smart, they know most people won't do normal maintenece, so they just replace *BLEEP* that would fail from that anyways! :)

[backwoods lex]

Thanks Toys. But any idea what the noise could be? No cel, regular oil changes since I've owned it last 40k. I've never heard that noise before.

What did you mean checking the "fins"? Thanks again.

[monarch]

backwoods lex, I frankly doubt the noise is coming from the water pump because bad water pumps are usually more noisy at idle than when revving the engine, plus 89K is early for water pump failure. 89K is also early for timing belt replacement. Older, long time Toyota owners have found 120K is a safe timing belt replacement interval (unless the car owner was an aggressive, leadfoot type driver) and even then the belt is usually not badly worn. One senior aged owner (wwest) for example, found his belt was still looking good at 150K

If the factory original Toyota red antifreeze was never changed then your 5 year old cooling system will still look like new inside and have zero oorrosion or mineral buildup - that's how amazinginly good stuff it is. Water pumps also tend to last 150,000 - 250,000 miles when using the Toyota red antifreeze in combination with distilled water. But if the factory original Toyota red antifreeze was changed at some point over to green / yellow auto parts store brands of antifreeze and mixed with tap water (which is what most auto repair shops use) then you probably have some mineral buildup. The silicates in the green / yellow freeze could have also begun to abrade the water pump seal.

In summary, chances are the noise may not have anything to do with the water pump or timing belt. Therefore you may wish to have the noise diagnosed first because maybe it is just coming from a worn serpentine drive belt or belt tensioner or something minor like that. If the shop says something $serious$ is wrong then I'd get another opinion from another Toyota or Lexus dealer before blindly forking out the $dough$.

[backwoods lex]

Thanks so much guys. I really appreciate the help. That kind of stuff just scares me with the interference engine. Thanks again.

[Toysrme]

If the factory original Toyota red antifreeze was never changed then your 5 year old cooling system will still look like new inside and have zero oorrosion or mineral buildup

Toyota red doesn't last any longer than a traditional coolant. That's why Toyota has replaced so many damn radiators in the last 10 years. Toyota grossly over-estimated the life span it's red coolant would have in the real world. I don't trust the lifespan of TR any farther than I can throw a gallon in my bad hand LoL!

Yes it's an I engine, no you shouldn't worry about it. If you are really worried about it, take the timing belt cover off (It's a few 10mm bolts & a lot of wiggling) & check it out. Turn it over a few times, or rotate the crankshaft by hand so you get to see the whole belt. Make sure it's not cracked, or freyed much & that it isn't "bent" or "bulging" anywhere. (For lack of better terms). It's more of a "Now that you're around 90,000 miles, start *thinking* about changing it sometime soon" type of deal. You can check here & on CL & especially on Toyota Nation. There are lots of people that go 110-120,000 miles on the stock timing belt & there are no negative comments on what shape the belts were in.

Edited January 11, 2006 by Toysrme

[steviej]

Toyota red doesn't last any longer than a traditional coolant. That's why Toyota has replaced so many damn radiators in the last 10 years. Toyota grossly over-estimated the life span it's red coolant would have in the real world. I don't trust the lifespan of TR any farther than I can throw a gallon in my bad hand LoL!

That is exactly what my Lexus dealership and two other Toyota dealerships stated as well. They don't trust the red stuff to go the distance so they routinely suggest changing it out at 3 years or 45,000 miles.

Monarch, don't lump ALL independent shops into one category. Many around here are well stocked with the fluids that are "mandatory" by the factory, this especially includes Toyota and Honda. Part of the responsibility goes to the owner to seek out a reputable knowledgable shop.

steviej

[mburnickas]

I have beenn saying that Toyota coolant (red) was nothing special since 2003, go figure.

monarch is a little wrong about the silicates here. There are many that have the same "stuff" as Toyota if you look around. Color means nothing in my eyes; go for WHAT is it made of. The color is just a dye as Lexes/Toyota told me.

For me the water pump for an extra $199 was worth it. I spent XX for the car and now I am thinking about $199 for a water pump??? Hell my blades on my RC heli cost more!

[monarch]

That is exactly what my Lexus dealership and two other Toyota dealerships stated as well. They don't trust the red stuff to go the distance so they routinely suggest changing it out at 3 years or 45,000 miles.

Specifically what happens to a Lexus cooling system if the factory fill coolant is not changed for 6 years / 90,000 miles? I have found the cooling system will still stay clean and free of corrosion and mineral deposits for that length of time. I got to see this first hand when I purchased my '91 LS400 in the spring of 2004 and found out from the service records the coolant had only been changed once (and fortunately using Toyota red coolant) since the car had been built in 1990. When I drained the radiator (to replace the alternator) the red coolant was still clear and the aluminum cooling pipes were still free of pitting or other signs of corrosion. There were no mineral deposits anywhere. I am grateful the Toyota red coolant has kept the system corrosion free because now I don't have to worry about leaks ever developing in the heater core - a component that costs $2,000 to replace on the LS400. I also don't have to worry about cylinder head gasket failures caused by aluminum corrosion, heater valve malfunctions due to corrosion nor worry about radiator leaks due to corrosion. Furthermore, since there are no mineral deposits inside the radiator core tubes degrading it's heat exchange capability , I know I can climb the 7% grades in the Mojave desert in heat of July without worry about engine overheating. Lastly, I can still confidently drive fairly long trips without worry my 15 year old factory original water pump is going to start leaking because the Toyota red coolant is free of silicates that can abrade the water pump seal.

[Toysrme]

I'm not reading that post. I know, I'm ignorant.

Monarch I know YOU have had good luck with your vehicles, and maintenece schdule, but that doesn't discredit that thousands of others have not been able to share your experience, and that real world experiance has shown the stuff to be the cause of a lot of problem.

BTW I like the new butterfly avatar. ;)

[monarch]

real world experiance has shown the stuff to be the cause of a lot of problem.

As Ross Perot used to say "I'm all ears".... I'm open to hearing about how the Toyota red has been shown to be "the cause of a lot of problems". Please provide some links to information or photos where these problems are described such as the alledged "corrosion of water pump fins". And documentation of your comment: "Toyota red doesn't last any longer than a traditional coolant. That's why Toyota has replaced so many damn radiators in the last 10 years." Thanks.

[mburnickas]

I'm not reading that post. I know, I'm ignorant.

Monarch I know YOU have had good luck with your vehicles, and maintenece schdule, but that doesn't discredit that thousands of others have not been able to share your experience, and that real world experiance has shown the stuff to be the cause of a lot of problem.

BTW I like the new butterfly avatar. ;)

I agree 100%. I was going to comment but the search function is a powerful tool; like the internet. Just need to do some homework...

Oh Toysrme, there is a cool feature on this forum, it looks like this "You have chosen to ignore all posts from: XXXXX" ....GOD I LOVE IT!!

Edited January 12, 2006 by mburnickas

[Toysrme]

Naw man, I like reading monarch's posts.

Besides, sometimes (I think) he's right & I have agreed with him from time to time.

Edited January 12, 2006 by Toysrme

[dcfish]

Naw man, I like reading monarch's posts.

Besides, sometimes (I think) he's right & I have agreed with him from time to time.

Again another thread gone south, Only to wind up to be ANOTHER "I CAN PROVE IT , CAN YOU" Thread by you know who. Insanity

[wwest]

Well, first of all I didn't change out the factory "red" coolant in my 1992 LS400 until about two years ago, at about 90,000 miles. And I only did it then because while it was still pickish it was starting top look somewhat murky. Ph and freeze level were still within the proper range.

I don't think my brother's 1992 LS400, now well over 100k, has had its coolant changed out even to this day.

In my experience, dating back to the 1950's, the primary failure mode of automotive water pumps is the seal between the impeller/pump and the bearing. Once that seal gives 'way the bearing will begin to rust and failure will soon follow.

There is a weep hole in the front of the water pump shaft extension so minor levels of moisture passing through the seal can get out and not cause the bearing to rust. It's a good item to check each time the oil is changed.

I just installed a new alternator in a friends 1992 LS400 and rebuilt the power stearing pump. While there was stearing fluid leaking onto the alternator it turned out that that had nothing to do with its failure.

I had purchased a new set of slip ring brushes for the alternator on the assumption that at more than 150,000 miles those would be toast. It turned out that the slip ring brushes had about 50% wear but the slip rings themselves were worn down to the metal shaft of the alternator.

Time for a rebuilt alternator.

So IMMHO these Lexus alternator failures are the result of inordinantly SOFT copper slip rings and have NOTHING to do with the power stearing pump leaking.

So mine and my brother's LS400 can (slowly) leak all the power stearing fluid it wants and we plan to pay no attention unless the alternator fails. At that time we will likely rebuild the power stearing pump but still ignore the water pump unless the leakage rate indicates that its warranted.

[mehullica]

I've got a little over 332,000 miles on my 1990 LS400. Changed the coolant once a year since new. 3 water pumps, just because I didn't want to get stuck somewhere. Original cooling system otherwise. No problems.

[backwoods lex]

Found out what the problem was. I had a tough time isolating the sound, even using one of those electronic sound devices. I tried of all things a cardboard paper towell cylinder and it worked great. I traced the sound from my exhasut manifold down to the catalytic converter. I've heard that some of these things have ceramic parts inside that can break. The sound had been carrying up the exhaust in front of the engine. I feel a lot better now that I can drive the car.

Edited January 12, 2006 by backwoods lex

[Toysrme]

Kick !Removed!! Kill the cat!

[camlex]

Hello,

"Heat sheild" just take it out.

[wwest]

Found out what the problem was. I had a tough time isolating the sound, even using one of those electronic sound devices. I tried of all things a cardboard paper towell cylinder and it worked great. I traced the sound from my exhasut manifold down to the catalytic converter. I've heard that some of these things have ceramic parts inside that can break. The sound had been carrying up the exhaust in front of the engine. I feel a lot better now that I can drive the car.

Be aware that it is not at all unusual for the catalyst to come apart in chunks and then partially or almost fully block the exhaust flow. Other than poor engine performance the usual indication is a bright red, HOT, exhaust stack upstream of the converter after a relatively long drive.

Do not remove the catalyst heat shield if you often or sometime park over dry grass or "like" flamable material.

[steviej]

this happened on my old Bonneville SSEi. The honeycomb type element inside the cat came loose. The rattle noise was annoying but the emissions test (tested the old way with a probe up the tail pipe) were close to baseline. It was heard the most when driving around Boston and the Big Dig, jersey barriers on both sides of you in a tunnel makes for a wonderful echo chamber.

$295 and the cat section was replaced. The car was much quieter and even seemed to have better pick up.

I would say that the exhaust was partially occluded.

steviej

[yes250]

If you are posting in the right place, then you don't have an interference engine.

[Toysrme]

I think he has it covered already bro. ;)