Buying Used Rx 300 Today, Have Question

[tealboy]

There are two cars, both certified from lexus, both white and if the two were side by side, you would not pick one over the other based on condition, they are both perfect. One has 33k miles but with limited lexus service history and no record of the 30k svc(may have been none lexus serviced ). The other has higher mileage (37k) but has all lexus svc records, including the 30k mile service. I would rather have the lower mileage veh but it seems simple enough, the higher mileage vehicle is a safer bet, agreed? The 161 pt inspection did not find problems with either, other than needing new car mats, tires, rear brakes on one, front on the other, etc.

My other question is, I have a choice of tires, but unfortunately, a limited choice. The dealer will put either Bridgetone duelers or Kelley Safari all season tires. I'm not really familiar w/ either. What would you pick? I don't drive in snow, so quietness is more important to me. Personally, I would prob put cross terrains but that's not one of my choices.

Last, any other suggestions about buying a used, but certified car? (by the way, against the grain for some, but it is awd, which I need for very light off road use).

there is a 3rd option i am looking at, but i like the saleman i am working with so if the price works out, I will get one of the two above.

[lexus411]

I would go with the 37k one. Thats just over the hump where the dealer has to replace brakes and tires if they werent already done. Secondly the more service the customer did, the less the dealer paid to certify it. Should pass on the savings to you.

As part of the certification the dealer is suppossed to bring the service history up to date as well as do the next major service if its within 2k miles of it. So if you go with the the 33k they should complete the 30k for you.

[4482]

Why don't you try to make a deal on the car with the lower mileage by telling them if they do the 30K service (free) you will buy the car.

I would get the Bridgestone tires if that's the only choices.

[RX in NC]

Bridgestone Dueler tires are woefully substandard as many of us RX owners whose vehicles came equipped with those tires will readily attest. I have no ownership experience with Kelly Safari tires but I doubt if they're much better.

Your best bet would be to negotiate with the dealer for him to give you (either in cash or deduct from the price you'll pay for the vehicle) the amount of what it will cost him for the new tires he'll owe you. Then apply that money towards a new, thoroughly-researched set of rubber of your choosing. In your case that might be Michelin CrossTerrains although I think there are better tires available for less money than the relatively expensive CrossTerrains will set you back for.

[LexKid630]

Are they both the same year? Look at the sticker on the inside of the door...They might both say 2003, but one could have been MADE in 9/02 and the other may have been MADE in 4/03 etc (not sure when production of rx300 stopped). That's a difference of 7 months! and they're both considered "2003"

The one with 37,000 miles could have been made after the one with 33,000...If this was true, then i would get the one with 37,000 miles (made last)...Since the mileage is so close it only takes a little to make your mind (time).

Butttt..the one with 33,000 miles could have been made 7 months AFTER the one with 37,000 miles...this would mean that the one with 33k miles was not only less miles, but made after the other one..then you deffinetely know which to get!

and i wouldn't worry TOO much about the 33k one not having the 30,000 service...It's not life or death of you don't do the 30,000 service RIGHT at 30,000 miles LOL...Plus if the rx your looking at is only a 2003, the time is a big factor...33,000 miles is very high for an 03 (well for an average person, not for me LOL), and this means that it was mostly highway miles...that's a hell of a lot better than city! Just ask your dealer to do the 30k service NOOW and you'll buy it..3k miles isn't going to matter ;) Plus since they "certified" it they already did what was needed at 30,000 miles (pretty mcuh NOTHING anyway) ;)

And with the tires, i would get the ones that come standard with the rx (bridgestone). Something works, don't fix it...

good luck with your decision!

Edited August 26, 2005 by LexKid630

[monarch]

I'd go with the 37K RX300 because it likely has less mechanical wear and tear due to the extra preventive maintenance it has received. I'd even be willing to pay a higher price for it.

If price is important to you then I'd search for a non-Lexus certified RX300 that has all it's service records and is being sold by the original owner. That might save you $5,000. Search for such cars at cars.com. Be willing to travel out of state if necessary to pick up the car.

[RX in NC]

LexKid630,

You missed my point. The Bridgestone Duelers DON'T work. They are known to be lousy tires from both short treadwear life and very poor wet grip perspectives. Stay away from them whenever possible.

[wwest]

First, be aware that the transaxles in the RX300 appear to be failing prematurely at 70,000 to 80,000 miles. The owners manual indicates that the ATF need not be changed for the life of the vehicle yet Lexus is now recommending ATF flush and drain at every 15,000 mile interval.

In my own case (2001 AWD RX300) at ~40,000 miles the ATF was most definitely showing signs of having been overheated, burnt odor and darkish brown color. I drained all five qts, dropped the sump pan and cleaned out about 1/8" of non-metalic graphite looking debris.

Go to edmunds.com and search for "hesitation" and read.

The only RX I would currently recommend is the RX400h. I keep hoping Lexus will soon come up with a fix for the RX330 downshift hesitation problem. I strongly suspect the RX330's downshift hesitation problem is an outgrowth of the RX300 premature transaxle failures.

For the moment I would stay away from any Toyota or Lexus V6/5-speed FWD until the hesitation issue is successfully resolved.

And please keep in mind that the AWD RX300 is series is not really AWD to the level you might need or expect. 90% of the engine torque is routed to the front tires unless or until there is enough slippage (over time) for the viscous fluid in the viscous coupling to heat up and increase the torque coupling to the rear. On a four wheel dyno the best ratio we could obtain with an extended period of simulating front wheel slippage was about 75/25 F/R.

Also be aware that tire chains CANNOT be fitted to the rear wheels.

I added 1.5 wheel spacers (all four) and upgraded to 17X8 wheels so I could safely use tire chains. At the rear first and then also at the front when needed.

Personally for quietness I run summer style Bridgestone Turanzas but keep tire chains at the ready, onboard, during the winter months.

If you should proceed with the purchase be sure and have the dealer set the two available c-best options such that YOU are in control of the A/C compressor operation.

[SW03ES]

I strongly suspect the RX330's downshift hesitation problem is an outgrowth of the RX300 premature transaxle failures.

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Not to drive the thread off topic but, why then do vehicles with totally different transmissions than the RX300 or RX330 have the transmission hesitation issue?

They're two seperate issues.

[LexKid630]

I strongly suspect the RX330's downshift hesitation problem is an outgrowth of the RX300 premature transaxle failures.

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Not to drive the thread off topic but, why then do vehicles with totally different transmissions than the RX300 or RX330 have the transmission hesitation issue?

They're two seperate issues.

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I still don't know how that helps us decide which of the 2 is a better bet..the one with 33k miles or the one with 37k miles....

We are all aware of the tranny problems that the rx series has. The problem we are trying to solve here has nothing to do with a tranny. All rx300's are prone to this, we just need to see which one is better.

[wwest]

I strongly suspect the RX330's downshift hesitation problem is an outgrowth of the RX300 premature transaxle failures.

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Not to drive the thread off topic but, why then do vehicles with totally different transmissions than the RX300 or RX330 have the transmission hesitation issue?

They're two seperate issues.

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Good ideas, hardware or software, travel fast throughout any industry!

Lots of job-hopping.

There is no question that the idea of upshifting the transaxle, as does my 2001 RX300, during closed throttle coastdown periods would result in improved fuel economy and overall lowered emissions.

Think about what you might do with a manual transmission. You might leave the transmission in gear, clutch engaged, to coastdown quickly. You might even downshift. But if your interest was high for fuel economy or lower emissions you might soon learn to shift into neutral during any coastdown periods, however brief.

And why not?

On the other hand would you EVER downshift to brake a FWD vehicle if the roadbed were known to be slippery?

NOT!

But the fly in this particular ointment is the fact that the driver might suddenly decide to accelerate briskly...

My RX300, absent the e-throttle, absolutely must downshift quickly when I start depressing the gas pedal, otherwise those 4th gear clutches would soon be toast. With the throttle fully closed the engine was at idle. 800 RPM, 13 revs/second, doesn't provide much flow from the transaxle's hydraulic pump now that engine/transaxle ECU has commanded the pressure control solenoid to go to high pressure.

So my RX300 quickly downshifts but since there is not yet enough high pressure to fully and firmly engage the clutches they slip for a few revolutions as the engine torque is rising.

The RX300 transaxles begin to fail prematurely...

The FIX?

......None.

The MPG and emissions ratings are already on file at the EPA and CARB and cannot be recinded.

Otherwise the firmware could be simply "reflashed" to prevent the upshifting sequence.

So the long term fix became a new design that incorporated the e-throttle so the engine develops NO torque until the gearbox clutches are fully and firmly seated.

My guess is that the early TSBs that were issued to address the hesitation symptom simply extended the period the throttle would be in coastdown before upshifting. That would "filter out" a lot of gas pedal "dithering" and thereby substantially reduce the happenstance of delayed accelerating.

Has anyone heard of a RWD or rear biased AWD experiencing "engine hesitation" resulting from delayed, 1 to 2 second downshift squencing?

[tealboy]

I bought the 37k mile car based on the svc history but opted to forego the $1000 extended lexus warranty since it still has 8 months left on the original.

[bluestu]

Everyone needs to realize that the RX300's transaxle holds around 16 quarts of fluid. The only way to replace the fluid with clean fluid is to have it hooked to a flush machine. Pulling the plug and draining a few quarts is useless because two thirds or more of the dirty fluid still remains in the transmission. This is the main reason why all the transmissions are failing. I own two RX300s with approx. 90k on each and the transmissions on both cars shift very smoothly and the fluid is clean and pinkish in color. I have them flushed every 15k. The drain and fill that Toyota and Lexus offer is totally useless and a waste of money. This is not something I made up!!! I have talked to quite a few foreign car mechanics concerning this matter and they are well aware of the problem.

[wwest]

16 quarts = 4 gallons.

The entire transaxle case probably couldn't hold that much even if you removed all of the internal components.

Sounds to me like you have been victomized by your Lexus dealer.

It probably does take 16 quarts to fully flush the transaxle but I can assure you that for the AWD RX300 5 quarts results in a bit of an overfill.

[bluestu]

Using the word probably implies to me that you are speculating rather than stating factual information. I'm not trying to create controversy, only relay what I've experienced and what I've been told by foreign car mechanics. I've never taken either one of my cars to a Lexus dealer. I do take them to a place that specializes in foreign car repair and they have a flush machine for replacing the entire fluid in the transaxle. They told me for a fact that it takes aprrox. 16 quarts to refill the transaxle on an RX300. I did call Toyota to confirm this information. Toyota also told me that if the scheduled drain and fill was performed every 15k that eventually over time all the dirty fluid would be replaced with clean fluid. I thought the guy was joking, but he was serious.

It's possible that I have been misinformed and it certainly wouldn't be the first time. I can state for a fact that the fluid in my cars' transaxles are very clean and don't have a discolored appearance or burnt odor. They also upshift and downshift very quietly and smoothly. In my opinion, the flaw with the RX300's transaxle is in the servicing, not the design.

[wwest]

The reason I know, and am sure.

At ~44,000 miles my ATF looked dirty and had a definite burned odor.

Drained it and installed 4 qts purchased from Lexus.

A week of so later the ATF looked dirty again.

Discovered via the internet that to drain the 5th quart you need to remove a second drain plug in the diff'l case (NOT PTO).

The second time I purchased 5 qts and dropped and cleaned about 1/8" of non-metalic graphite looking debris from the bottom of the sump pan. 5 qts turned out to be a tad of an overfill.

But a week later, unlike previously, the ATF still looked pink and clear.

As it did also last evening when in sometime of a panic, immediately after I read your 16 qts statement, I rushed out into the garage to recheck the ATF condition.

So I'm fairly certain about the 5 quart amount.

[monarch]

Toyota also told me that if the scheduled drain and fill was performed every 15k that eventually over time all the dirty fluid would be replaced with clean fluid. I thought the guy was joking, but he was serious.

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I agree with Toyota that a simple and inexpensive drain and refill every 15K will keep the fluid pink and clean looking for hundreds of thousands of miles. In the 1960's and early 70's Toyota and many other car makers specified a tranny pan drain and refill every 12-18K miles. Those were the days transmission rebuilders like AAMCO and Cottman barely existed - they're business mushroomed when car makers began extending fluid drain intervals.

[bluestu]

You might want to talk to a Toyota specialist to confirm your conclusion. I have talked to three or four different mechanics and they all told me that the entire transaxle on an RX300 holds around 16 quarts. The transmission and front differential share the same fluid. One of the mechanics specializes in Toyotas, so I think he would know. The only precaution is to make sure you use the correct fluid that is clearly marked on the dipstick.

[wwest]

The only possible place for the extra non-drainable 11 quarts to be is within the bottom half of the torque converter. Almost three gallons of ATF in 1/2 of a transaxle torque converter?

Not !Removed! likely!

I think there is a missunderstanding about the fact that the typical flushing machine uses 16 quarts to flush the RX300 transaxle, not that it actually contains 16 quarts.

[bluestu]

Why don't you guys call around and find out exactly how many quarts an RX300 transaxle holds. Not just the transmission, but the entire transaxle assembly. I would be curious as to what you find out. I'm just relaying the information that I was given by very qualified technicians. I have a drain and fill performed on my minivan every 15k and the transmission on it holds 5qts. of fluid. That's just the transmission. It's a rear wheel drive vehicle.

[mikey00]

Just curious, how much does this 16 Qt flush cost? It looks like at least $60 in just fluid alone, unless they are not using the real Toyota fluid. If you add in the labor and the price of the machine it must be expensive. I do a drain and fill every 30K for about $15. I am approaching 90K and my transmission shifts smooth and fluid is pink in color, same as yours.

[bluestu]

It costs me about $140.00 to have the transaxle totally flushed and replaced with new Toyota fluid. The main reason I have it flushed is that I was alerted to the fact that all the people complaining of transmission failure also stated that their car's fluid appeared dark and burnt smelling. They had the drain and fill performed according to the maintanence schedule. That in itself tells me that there is something messed up with the drain and fill. I've looked at quite a few RXs with higher mileage and all of them had dirty looking transmission fluid. Maybe draining the fluid plus removing the pan and emptying it is just as good. I don't know. I doubt if too many Lexus owners are going to crawl under their cars to perform the service. I'm just trying to alert owners that the drain and fill performed at the dealership is inadequate. I had it done when I bought my second used RX and the fluid was still dark and dirty after the service was performed. I'm happy with the flush service and feel confident that my transaxles are going to live a normal Toyota life expectancy which I'm sure is more than 70 or 80k.

[RX in NC]

Flush if you wish but the flushing procedure entails much greater risk. There's always the possibility that you'll dredge up debris that is safely lodged on or near the magnet which is part of the tip of the front differential drain plug. A routine drain-and-fill every 15,000 to 30,000 miles with Toyota Type T-IV fluid should be sufficient to give these transmissions a fighting chance of staying alive for a greater duration than we've witnessed when one chooses to follow the owners manual recommendation and not change their transmission fluid for the life of the vehicle.

I agree with wwest - these flushing shops acknowledge that they use 14 to 18 quarts of fluid to clean out the lines and components, but there's no way that an RX is going to hold that much fluid within its closed system. And how do you know the shop is flushing your vehicle with T-IV instead of Dexron or some generic cleaning fluid? And if they happen to be re-using this fluid for multiple transmission jobs before they flush and clean their own flushing machine, then you're really asking for trouble. You're paying a lot of money to take a calculated risk. I think that's a mistake when I can do my own drain-and-fill for less than twenty dollars.

I wouldn't trust anyone else !Removed! around with these fragile, flaky RX all-wheel-drive transmissions. I'll stick to my careful drain-and-fill plan using T-IV fluid and pulling both drain plugs and cleaning them thoroughly with a clean rag. Our original transmission failed at about 48,000 miles and was replaced under warranty by Lexus. Since that time I've been following my drain-and-fill plan and the fluid has remained clean (although this vehicle has never shifted nearly as smoothly as I believe a $40,000-plus SUV should). My wife is approaching 93,000 miles on the thing now so my plan appears to be working. But we still look forward to unloading this albatross which will probably occur between 125,000 and 130,000 miles.