To Ls Or Not To Ls...

[jainla]

Hello everyone...

I am thinking about taking the plunge and purchasing a 01/02 LS 430. I drove an '01 at my local CPO Center and I was very impressed...but i'm not enamored with the color. Also for a model with sunroof and Nav-Lev the price seemed a little high, but only 38k miles totally covered by the CPO warranty.

There is one at another dealership (same year, '01) that is not a CPO car, but a much nicer color with the Ultralux package. B) However at 65k miles it's just out of warranty. Price is almost 8k less however.

So....which way to go? Is the CPO warranty really worth the extra $$ for what many say is the most reliable car ever made? Aside from the air struts going out at 100k miles+ which I'm willing to deal with when the time arises, has anyone heard about other niggles with the Ultralux LS vs. non Ultralux at the 60,000 mile mark? Is the rest of the Ultralux package worth the hassle of dealing with the air struts if and when they go?

I live in LA so there is a pretty good supply of these on the pre-owned market.

Thanks in advance for your advice,

-J

PS-- BTW great forums, look forward to spending more time here if/when I become one of the 'family.'

[ED.]

If it was a BMW or MB I would force you to get the CPO. With Lexus I think you are safe not to. I would go for the one with the Ultra Luxury package myself and if you really wanted the coverage you could go for an extended warranty. We use Merury Insurance and they have worked great for my BMW. I am sure those extended warranty guys want people with a Lexus to buy them : ). All in all I think you should be safe without.

thanks

[larryp]

38K is pretty low miles, whereas 65K is about normal for an 01. That's a difference of about 2-3 years worth of driving depending on your annual miles.

The UL package has a lot of extras: perforated leather which allows for air cooled seats; reclining massaging rear seats; rear seat passenger controls for radio; rear sunshades; and a few more bells and whistles. The heart of the vehicle, the drivetrain, is no different between the two cars.

MSRP for the UL package was around $70K, for non-UL about $65K.

The miles are the most determining factor IMHO. If you carry passengers in the rear a lot you may want to opt for the UL. If not, and you can afford, I'd pick the lower miles. However, if you don't like the color of the non-UL car you might want to keep looking. No sense spending that kind of money if you're not happy with the color. BTW, what are the colors?

Good luck on your decision.

[branshew]

Is there a reasonthat the car isn't CPO. I thought that almost any car could be added to the CPO program of most makers as long as it was under 5 years old and under 75K miles. It would probably cost an extra $2K to have the car CPO.

If you're a chauffer then get the UL car - otherwise screw the passengers. They'll just have to "suffer" in the back of your Lexus without the reclining massaging seats.

[monarch]

Few used car shoppers understand the connection between driving style and mechanical wear and tear or the connection between frequent preventive maintenance and mechanical wear and tear. That's why few used car shoppers search out grandma / grandpa owned and driven used Lexus's or make an effort to acquire and study the preventive maintenance service records of a used Lexus they are considering.

The used car industry understands this too so that's one reason they invented the CPO car marketing scheme. They know the average used car shopper views a CPO car in such high regard they will pay extra $$$ for one without knowing anything about the driving style of the former owner or the maintenance history of the car. So CPO is a great marketing tool for the used car industry

[larryp]

Each dealership makes the decision about which cars to make CPO. The decision is based upon what repairs would be required to make it qualify, whether they have met their CPO sales quota, the miles on the vehicle, etc. The cost to certify runs anywhere from $1k - $2k depending upon what is needed to bring it up to spec. Once the vehicle is certified it is Lexus that gets stuck with the bill if a warranty repair is later needed. With 68K miles they probably figured it wouldn't help that much on resale because of the limited miles left before the CPO warranty expires, or there may be expensive repairs needed to make it "Certifiable".

[myls430rox]

Howdy, Sewell Lexus told me that 65K miles was the cutoff. Anything over 65K was not eligible for CPO. I purchased an 01 CPO and wondered if the CPO was worth it as well. You can read about my experience in the Dealer Forum on page 2. Due to the outstanding customer service at Sewell, I firmly believe in the program and highly recommend it.

What color did you not like. We got the Lavender Mist and love it. Not your typical Lexus color and we like that.

Just my 2 cents....Good luck with your decision

[1990LS400]

I'd say to go with whichever car you like. And I agree that 27K miles more on the UL isn't much of a concern -- verify the maintenance history though.

I was in a somewhat similar situation when I bought my 00 LS in 2003. The local Lexus dealer was asking $9,000!!! more for either of two CPO 2000 LS400s with 36K miles than I ended up paying a non-Lexus dealer for an even better equipted 00 LS (in my favorite color) with 38K miles.

Almost two years and 23K miles later, I am still glad I didn't spend the extra $9K and that I bought the nicer non-CPO LS. My CPA/wife is REALLY glad I didn't spend the extra cash.

[jainla]

Wow, thanks for all the feedback.

Here are the two contenders:

'01 Nav-Lev Mystic Sea/Light grey leather (not sure what its called), 34k miles CPO

'01 Ultralux, Blue Onyx, Ecru leather 65k miles.

The first one is almost $8k more than the second one. Both are lease returns, the blue one is a corporate lease (probably someone's company car). Both are at Lexus dealers as well, so I assume they could pull the entire history. I agree with Monarch's post...if I could find the car the little old lady in Beverly Hills drove to canasta every day I'd take it in a heartbeat.

I've had my current car (an old diesel Mercedes) for 11 years, so I'm probably going to have this one for a while as well. Personally I'm not that enamored with the Ultralux. I think it makes the car heavier and more gizmos to break. But it has a couple of features (parking assist, sunshade, hot/cold seats) that I really want here in SoCal and are hard to find as standalone options on the first series 430's (sunshade and seats I think were UL only).

I guess my dream machine would be a Custom Lux with sport suspension (has all the goodies I would want and no pesky air shocks) but these are pretty hard to come by, even new. I read in another post (probably in this forum) that the LS's in dealer stock tend to come 3 ways, base, NavLev, and UltraLux. Anything else would be special order.

I see alot of Mystic Sea out here (believe it or not), especially on the ES and GS cars. Our old office garage was the storage depot for the local Lexus dealer so I've seen these cars in pretty much every color they come in (nothing like stepping out of the elevator to be greeted by about 40 different LS, RX, ES and GS cars!). Somehow I find Mystic Sea less attractive than the similar Cypress Pearl.

Flint Mica and either Millenium or Mercury silvers I find particularly fetching....if we were talking about any of those colors we might be having a very different conversation now. :D

I'll have to go test drive the other car, but my gut tells me to keep looking at this point. But thanks again, and I guess no reason to fear the Ultralux.

Have to admit though, the fridge in the back sounds awful nice when it gets hot out here....

Thanks so much for your comments, keep 'em coming!

-J

[SW03ES]

Thats true, in an 01-03 car they basically shipped 3 ways, base, nav/lev, and UL (it was me who you read say that ;). Thats blurred a little with the 04-05 where you see more CLs and the ML package replaced the Nav/Lev.

Just so you know, Flint Mica wasn't availiable on the LS until 04.

As for the Mystic, its a nice color but I do agree the Cypress (which replaced it in 2004) is more attractive. I've never cared for the Blue Onyx.

[akewlguy]

I am not an expert on any LEXUS, but checking carfax is critical.

If you see the car was a lease stay away. Contact LEXUS and get maintenance record. If either car has not been taken care by LEXUS I would be concerned.

I say this since they both were with in the warentee.

Reguardless I have a 93 and it is awesome! The car is a fast tank and the best car I have ever driven.

Cheers to LEXUS!

[SW03ES]

Why stay away if its a lease? Leasing is huge nowadays, especially on cars this expensive. MOST of the 3 year old Lexuses you see come on the market are lease returns, its a great way to get a nice lightly used vehicle.

Its going to be hard to find one 3 yrs old for sale that wasn't a lease.

Also, why be concerned if Lexus didn't maintain the car? As long as you have records it really doesn't matter who did the work. The engineering on a Lexus, even an LS, is pretty basic and its not as complex as a BMW, Audi, or Mercedes. Almost anyone can work on one.

[larryp]

Many times a lease car means company vehicle, so maintenance is expensed to the company and therefore more likely to have a great service record. In addition, lease cars are inspected at lease end for any damage, and believe me they will take a close look to find anything wrong. Lease turn-ins, especially Lexus, would be a good buy - but as Steve said, the most important aspect to consider is the maintenance record and the intervals it was performed.

[jainla]

Something like 50% of all cars with MSRP over $30k are leased. Here in LA I would venture that number is considerably higher.

Especially with Lexus, where they give you a loaner car (at least here in SoCal) there is a big incentive to service the car regularly, especially since the dealer has the capability to pull up the service history when your return the car (whether they do or not is another question). I'd bet the majority of the CPO cars here are lease returns...most people who buy the car probably hold onto it until the warranty is up, if not long after, which means there's less incentive to certify the cars if they still qualify. Also the dealership has most likely serviced the car through its entire life so they'll know what condition it's in and what problems it may be developing.

I would venture to say that the engineering on an LS, Merc S class and BMW 5-7 series are all fairly complex, except that the Japanese cars the individual components seem to be designed to last longer. My Mercedes will run virtually forever if I feel like spending $500+ every 15K miles to keep up with the service schedule. They replace everything before it breaks.

Also the German facination with drive-by-wire is not as evident in the Japanese cars (although this tide may be turning: witness electrohydraulic braking in the new GS). The German cars seem to have come too far to fast.....although traditionally they seem to spend the first production year working out the bugs.

The Japanese cars arrive on the market (at least in the US) virtually perfected; the LS has been the winner or top 5 in JD Power's initial quality survey pretty much forever, through 2 model changeovers. The LS also wins after 5 years of ownership, a substantial number of people report NO problems with the car at all during the first 5 years. BMW, Mercedes and Audi haven't even come close.

The inspection schedules in Japan are much tougher than they are here; basically the car has to be in near-new condition when it comes in every year. So engineering cars to need less maintenance means they are less expensive and less hassle to own...probably important in a country where gas costs about $5 a gallon.

I'm not sure about the service, but certainly in use I find the Lexus cars MUCH more user-friendly than the German ones. My dad's good friend dumped a 745i after nine months because he hated the iDrive so much. Merc's COMMAND system isn't much better. The most advanced technology in many cases is actually the easiest to use (oddly enough I read that in an MB brochure).

I stare at computer screens all day at my job, the less time I spend in front of one in my car the better!

The search continues...someone suggested going to a more suburban area like the OC or the SF valley for pre-owned cars as there's less wear and tear. Any thoughts?

Also anyone know (or can direct me to a post here at LOC) where I can find the service schedule for an LS 430 I can compare to? Thanks!

Why stay away if its a lease? Leasing is huge nowadays, especially on cars this expensive. MOST of the 3 year old Lexuses you see come on the market are lease returns, its a great way to get a nice lightly used vehicle.

Its going to be hard to find one 3 yrs old for sale that wasn't a lease.

Also, why be concerned if Lexus didn't maintain the car? As long as you have records it really doesn't matter who did the work. The engineering on a Lexus, even an LS, is pretty basic and its not as complex as a BMW, Audi, or Mercedes. Almost anyone can work on one.

←

Many times a lease car means company vehicle, so maintenance is expensed to the company and therefore more likely to have a great service record. In addition, lease cars are inspected at lease end for any damage, and believe me they will take a close look to find anything wrong. Lease turn-ins, especially Lexus, would be a good buy - but as Steve said, the most important aspect to consider is the maintenance record and the intervals it was performed.

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[akewlguy]

Like I said my experiences are with a 93LS with 90k miles.

I am sure things are changing, but I know my friends who have leased automobiles pound the hell out of them. I know when I have a leased or rented auto its a bit easier to slam a gear, play around and abuse.

So a leased auto can be abused. Check carfax and maintenance record. Good luck..

[akewlguy]

As for maintenance there is a difference... Preventive maintenance is good.

I know a post 2000 should not have issues, but if someone has 110k you would like to see a new timing belt and regular tune ups.

Some people focus on preventive maintenance which is taking care of potential issues before they happen. This is very good. If you see someone with a new 50,000 dollar car who does not get the regular check ups I would question how well they took care of the LEXUS.

Now I am not saying that someone has to do everything to the T, but that is a good sign. Also many owners take extreme care of their new LEXUS. Damn us poor folk take great care of our 93 LEXUS's. :)

Cheers to LEXUS

[SW03ES]

But renting a car for a weekend and leasing one for 3 years are two very different things. It costs $1100 a month or so to lease an LS430, not a small investment and you have to enjoy the car for three years, and answer to them when you turn it back in.

I know you like your Lexus but its really annoying when you always capitalize "Lexus"...

[LexKid630]

But renting a car for a weekend and leasing one for 3 years are two very different things. It costs $1100 a month or so to lease an LS430, not a small investment and you have to enjoy the car for three years, and answer to them when you turn it back in.

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I leased my 98 Ls. For the first and ONLY time. I HATED leasing. You don't really get the feeling that you "own" it.

[SW03ES]

That I agree with, I leased mine and then bought it out of the lease a while back and I definately feel different in it now that its not only mine, but totally paid for.

But leasing is a very attractive business move for small business owners that have monies they want to protect. I'll probably lease my next one again.

[LexKid630]

That I agree with, I leased mine and then bought it out of the lease a while back and I definately feel different in it now that its not only mine, but totally paid for.

But leasing is a very attractive business move for small business owners that have monies they want to protect. I'll probably lease my next one again.

←

When leasing when you own your own business you write it off. That saves you a lot of money. That's what happened with my Ls.

[SW03ES]

Right, in some instances you can write off the entire lease payment, saving you more than you could write off for a purchase.

The only real reason I bought mine was to save the monthly expense since I was starting a new business, my accountant and I labored hard on the decision too.

[amarslex430]

I am not an expert on any LEXUS, but checking carfax is critical.

If you see the car was a lease stay away. Contact LEXUS and get maintenance record. If either car has not been taken care by LEXUS I would be concerned.

I say this since they both were with in the warentee.

Reguardless I have a 93 and it is awesome! The car is a fast tank and the best car I have ever driven.

Cheers to LEXUS!

←

I disagree about the car fax idea I brought a used gs 300 supposedly according to car fax never in an accident well after someone hit it in the rear bumper cracking the paint I found out differently. after the repairs where done I notice a space on the right quarter panel after talking with the lexus collision manager he showed me different as far as the car not being in any prior accidents to include overspray on different parts of the car So don't believe the car fax thing

[SW03ES]

Carfax only knows what becomes a matter of public record. So an accident that isn't reported to the police usually won't be included.

Its cheap and worthwhile to see who the owners are etc, but its not bulletproof.