Would You Buy Another Rx?

[gtfrench]

"Official EPA ratings...."

We'll probably see the first official EPA mileage listed on the sticker in the next couple weeks, but it's clear from the RX 400h Product Information sheet (updated in late February) that the numbers will be 31/27/29.

http://pressroom.toyota.com/presstxt/2006l...lex400h-2_s.pdf

EPA doesn't yet list the 2006 models, but this is the website where it will eventually show up. It's a pretty interesting list to sort and scan.

http://www.epa.gov/autoemissions/suv-05.htm

[SW03ES]

LexKid- Thats not entirely true, I fully believe there are more good salesmen than bad out there, but the bad just give the rest a stigma.

Coming from a profession that is stereotyped as being full of opportunisitic sleazeballs, I've met far more good colleagues than bad. But the bad ones are out there...

[wwest]

Hey, according to the post that was the SERVICE WRITER that said the RX400h would be a gas hog, not a saleman.

And from what I read each dealer is getting one, exactly ONE, RX400h demo version on the 20th of April and actual sales have been delayed until sometime in May.

[RX400h]

Hey, according to the post that was the SERVICE WRITER that said the RX400h would be a gas hog, not a saleman.

And from what I read each dealer is getting one, exactly ONE, RX400h demo version on the 20th of April and actual sales have been delayed until sometime in May.

←

I have a confirmed date of April 25th for delivery of my RX400h, so in all probability, your info source is in error.

[MightyPugs]

i was looking at the hybrid and my salesguy (who sold me my 04 330) told me to not bother. the 400 is limited production and they do not expect them to sell well. i was also told that lexus isn't expected to bring the hybrid back in 07.

again, this was told to me by my salesguy. i would think there would be some validity to this being that he was not trying to make a dollar off of me.

[apatrules]

That's why the highway MPG is so low. Any engineer worth his salt would simply charge, top off, the batteries and then not use them again as long as a reasonably constant speed were maintained or maybe if WOT is applied.

←

The AWD RX330 is rated (using the same EPA test cycles) at 18/24 MPG, so no matter how you look at it, the RX400h far exceeds the city mileage (72% increase) and even surpases the highway mileage by 12.5%, and I expect real-world-driving to produce the same increases. As I mentioned a while ago, if you drive primarily on empty country roads and average 50-60 MPH, then cylinder deactivation is the way to go. However, if frequent stop&go driving is the norm, you will make up the extra cost of the hybrid is short time, especially with these and future gas prices.

←

Seems to me the reason to buy the 400h has little to do with fuel economy and more to do with better performance (or having a good greeney feeling).

Let's see, the 400h is rated at 31 city and 27 highway and the 330 is 18 city and 24 highway. Let's assume you drive 14,000 miles a year, half in the city and half on the highway. By my rough calculations, that makes out to be 357 miles per tank in the 330 and 492 per tank in the 400h. Or 39.2 tanks of gas for the 330 and 28.45 tanks in the 400h. Assuming $2.20 per gallon, that makes the cost of a year's gasoline at $1,466 for the 330 and $1,064 for the 400h. Or a saving of $402 per year with the 400h.

Assuming the 400h is at least $5,000 more expensive than the 330, it will take you 12.5 years to recoup the $5,000 initial cost and in that time you will have had to have driven 175,000 miles to make up in gasoline what you paid to the dealer. Uh, but by 175,000 miles your battery pack will probably have already been replaced, probably at a cost in excess of an additional $5,000.

Even in a best case scenerio--you only drive in the city--the gasoline savings are $716 per year and it will take you 7.2 years to recoup the $5,000 added up front cost. Also in that period, you will have put about 100,000 miles on the car and what is going to be the resale value of a vehicle with that much mileage facing the probability of an at least $5,000 price to replace the battery pack?

As I said, if you want more performance, buy the 400h; but you ain't going to make up the additional cost in gasoline savings.

[wwest]

Mixed bag....

Those of us who want to be environmentally conservative, "greenies", likely will not be buying any vehicle being marketed based on V8, hybrid SUPERCHARGED performance.

So the market will most likely be "boy-racer" types that want to "look" green.

How many of those around??

And given the vehicle is being primarily marketed to "lead-foot" types, that Boston Lexus service writer may very well be correct, the RX400h will be a gas hog, not as a result of the hybrid aspects, but because of its use in the designated high performance market.

[RX in NC]

Hybrid gas/electric is not the automobile's powerplant future. Donald Fagen got it right with his 1993 song entitled "Kamakiriad":

"I was born yesterday when they brought my Kamakiriad

When they handed me the keys

It's a steam-powered 10, the frame is out of Glasgow

The tech is Balinese

It's not a freeway bullet, or a bug with monster wheels

It's a total biosphere

The farm in the back is hydroponic

Good, fresh things every day of the year...."

[RX400h]

The AWD RX330 is rated (using the same EPA test cycles) at 18/24 MPG, so no matter how you look at it, the RX400h far exceeds the city mileage (72% increase) and even surpases the highway mileage by 12.5%, and I expect real-world-driving to produce the same increases. As I mentioned a while ago, if you drive primarily on empty country roads and average 50-60 MPH, then cylinder deactivation is the way to go. However, if frequent stop&go driving is the norm, you will make up the extra cost of the hybrid is short time, especially with these and future gas prices.

←

Seems to me the reason to buy the 400h has little to do with fuel economy and more to do with better performance (or having a good greeney feeling).

Let's see, the 400h is rated at 31 city and 27 highway and the 330 is 18 city and 24 highway. Let's assume you drive 14,000 miles a year, half in the city and half on the highway. By my rough calculations, that makes out to be 357 miles per tank in the 330 and 492 per tank in the 400h. Or 39.2 tanks of gas for the 330 and 28.45 tanks in the 400h. Assuming $2.20 per gallon, that makes the cost of a year's gasoline at $1,466 for the 330 and $1,064 for the 400h. Or a saving of $402 per year with the 400h.

Assuming the 400h is at least $5,000 more expensive than the 330, it will take you 12.5 years to recoup the $5,000 initial cost and in that time you will have had to have driven 175,000 miles to make up in gasoline what you paid to the dealer. Uh, but by 175,000 miles your battery pack will probably have already been replaced, probably at a cost in excess of an additional $5,000.

Even in a best case scenerio--you only drive in the city--the gasoline savings are $716 per year and it will take you 7.2 years to recoup the $5,000 added up front cost. Also in that period, you will have put about 100,000 miles on the car and what is going to be the resale value of a vehicle with that much mileage facing the probability of an at least $5,000 price to replace the battery pack?

As I said, if you want more performance, buy the 400h; but you ain't going to make up the additional cost in gasoline savings.

←

Ah, but your reasoning is faulty, grasshopper. Let's first consider driving conditions: The average person (who lives in a big city) has to deal with horrendous traffic congestion every day, and it only gets worse. Therefore, I will use city milelage as a basis for my calculations. Secondly, gas prices are heading up and will easily reach $2.50 per gallon by Summer. Now, let's talk torque. How much is it worth? 650 lbs-ft is worth $10,000 or more to some people, but for the sake of argument here, I'll select $3000, a figure that most would pay to have this much pulling power. Lastly, you forgot to mention the $2000 tax break that comes off the top of your income when tax time rolls around. For most people, that's a good $600 in their pockets.

Now, taking all these factors into consideration, it would take 1.7 years to recoupe the extra cost of the RX400h. We can always go into why I didn't include discounting, but this is true for every new model comparison. New design=MSRP.

BTW, batteries are projected to cost $1000 8 years from now, so even if you factor that cost in, you still add little to the "recoupe" time figure.

[wwest]

"it would take 1.7 years to recoupe..."

How long does it take if the choices are that I either stick with my 93 Ford Ranger with I4 and manual transmission vs trading up to the RX400h?

Or what if I trade up from my 2001 AWD RX300, how long does it take to recoupe the actual FULL tradeup cost?

Looking at just the value of fuel savings isn't nearly the FULL picture.

[RX400h]

"it would take 1.7 years to recoupe..."

How long does it take if the choices are that I either stick with my 93 Ford Ranger with I4 and manual transmission vs trading up to the RX400h?

Or what if I trade up from my 2001 AWD RX300, how long does it take to recoupe the actual FULL tradeup cost?

Looking at just the value of fuel savings isn't nearly the FULL picture.

←

Primarily, it's:

1) Not having to stop at the gas station twice per week

2) Having 650 lbs-ft of torque at your toes

3) Having every option known to man (and woman) at your fingertips

4) Did I mention 650 lbs-ft of torque?

5) Not having any squeeks, rattles, or tranny hesitation issues

6) Getting stuck in traffic and not using any gas for 2 miles or more

7) driving the most advanced vehicle on the planet. Heck, even Porsche is asking to lease the technology, and you how nationalistic they can be!

[mikey00]

Add #8

I forgot I can't even drive this thing in sand.

[RX400h]

Add #8

I forgot I can't even drive this thing in sand.

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Not only can you drive it on the beach, but you can also drive it in the snow and mud. You can't drive it up a 50 degree incline with boulders the size of refrigerators, but then again, who does that in an RX330 or RX300 anyway?

[SW03ES]

Hey, according to the post that was the SERVICE WRITER that said the RX400h would be a gas hog, not a saleman.

And from what I read each dealer is getting one, exactly ONE, RX400h demo version on the 20th of April and actual sales have been delayed until sometime in May.

←

Thats assuming that service writers know more about these cars than Salespeople, which they don't.

Do you know you need NO education and NO training to become a service writer for Lexus, or most other car companies ww? Ads in the paper all the time from the Lexus dealers here, its as easy to be a service writer as it is to be a salesman. They have no insider knowledge nor often any mechanical experience at all. They sell service to you, thats their job.

i was looking at the hybrid and my salesguy (who sold me my 04 330) told me to not bother. the 400 is limited production and they do not expect them to sell well. i was also told that lexus isn't expected to bring the hybrid back in 07.

First of all, Lexus doesn't do limited production. Nothing in their history has shown they have any inclination to do that, certainly to the extent that they have put into refining the hybrid system on this car and marketing it. They expect it to be a huge success, and they do already have some 20,000 orders....

Wait and see.

I do also have to remind you that you dont have to have any knowledge of automobiles or even be a high school graduate to sell Lexuses. Consider that when you take info from car salesmen as truth. I deal with car salesmen for a living, trust me, most of them have no insight into what they sell and they get no more information about new products really than we do until they arrive.

Car salesmen also like the sound of their own voices and will often talk about things that are blatantly untrue and total misinformation, often that they just make up. Some are quite good at this and are adept at making it sound like its coming from a credible source. It isn't. The big guys on this board know more about whats going on at Lexus than your salesman, trust me.

Ask your Lexus salesman to describe how some complex function of your car works, say the adaptive lighting or the laser cruise control, VSC or the AWD system. Listen to what he says, I bet it'll be amusing. I've heard things from the cruise control uses sound waves to the adative lighting reads the road ahead of you and anticipates turns.

Then ask him to talk about the breif history of a model, the LS or the RX and see what he says. I bet you he's wrong. I've had salesmen tell me the RX came out in 1990 etc

What I'm saying is your salesman or service writer is no more reliable a source of info than anyone on this forum, in fact they're LESS reliable because you can guarantee everyone here has the interest, the time, and the means to find whatever information is out there.

[wwest]

I was simply pointing out that the service writer would have little motivation to earn a quick commission for selling something in stock, unlike what some have said would be the case if a saleman had said this.

"Limited production" "Nothing in history"

One can also say that Lexus has NEVER encountered the number of product delays nor the duration of those delays as has occurred with the RX400h.

And I think you could say the SC430 has had a "limited" production run.

Making an announcement that the RX400h will be "limited production" would be an easy way of "saving face" for the embarrassment of non-public acceptance of a hybrid gas hog.

[LexKid630]

Hey, according to the post that was the SERVICE WRITER that said the RX400h would be a gas hog, not a saleman.

And from what I read each dealer is getting one, exactly ONE, RX400h demo version on the 20th of April and actual sales have been delayed until sometime in May.

←

Thats assuming that service writers know more about these cars than Salespeople, which they don't.

Do you know you need NO education and NO training to become a service writer for Lexus, or most other car companies ww? Ads in the paper all the time from the Lexus dealers here, its as easy to be a service writer as it is to be a salesman. They have no insider knowledge nor often any mechanical experience at all. They sell service to you, thats their job.

i was looking at the hybrid and my salesguy (who sold me my 04 330) told me to not bother. the 400 is limited production and they do not expect them to sell well. i was also told that lexus isn't expected to bring the hybrid back in 07.

First of all, Lexus doesn't do limited production. Nothing in their history has shown they have any inclination to do that, certainly to the extent that they have put into refining the hybrid system on this car and marketing it. They expect it to be a huge success, and they do already have some 20,000 orders....

Wait and see.

I do also have to remind you that you dont have to have any knowledge of automobiles or even be a high school graduate to sell Lexuses. Consider that when you take info from car salesmen as truth. I deal with car salesmen for a living, trust me, most of them have no insight into what they sell and they get no more information about new products really than we do until they arrive.

Car salesmen also like the sound of their own voices and will often talk about things that are blatantly untrue and total misinformation, often that they just make up. Some are quite good at this and are adept at making it sound like its coming from a credible source. It isn't. The big guys on this board know more about whats going on at Lexus than your salesman, trust me.

Ask your Lexus salesman to describe how some complex function of your car works, say the adaptive lighting or the laser cruise control, VSC or the AWD system. Listen to what he says, I bet it'll be amusing. I've heard things from the cruise control uses sound waves to the adative lighting reads the road ahead of you and anticipates turns.

Then ask him to talk about the breif history of a model, the LS or the RX and see what he says. I bet you he's wrong. I've had salesmen tell me the RX came out in 1990 etc

What I'm saying is your salesman or service writer is no more reliable a source of info than anyone on this forum, in fact they're LESS reliable because you can guarantee everyone here has the interest, the time, and the means to find whatever information is out there.

←

I couldn't have said this any better!! Salesman are not reliable at all. Last time i was buying a lexus the sales "woman" LOL told me VVT-i stood for some cazy thing that had to do with vital something or other, and that the "i" stood for interference.. WOW i could tell she was lying. I didn't even bother asking her about anything else because i knew i would get a lie! Never trust what they say.

[SW03ES]

wwest, I'll just say again, wait and see.

[RX400h]

Making an announcement that the RX400h will be "limited production" would be an easy way of "saving face" for the embarrassment of non-public acceptance of a hybrid gas hog.

←

I had to chuckle when I read that one. The RX400h has had the longest waiting list in the history of Lexus. And with city milage that bests the 330 by 78%, I would hardly call it a gas hog!

[wwest]

"longest waiting list in the history of Lexus..."

Yes, and how much of that wait was due to Lexus delaying production again and again? How many do you suppose lost faith and dropped off the waiting list.

Must have been very close to the 18, 000 Lexus touted as being on that waiting list since so many high population density area dealers are now offering first come first serve MSRP deals on the RX400h.

[RX400h]

You surely have forgotten the painful lesson Mercedes learned when they rushed the M-series SUVs to market not too long ago. That series went on to become the least reliable Mercedes vehicles ever. Honda didn't have ANY SUVs for many of the years that Toyota ruled the asian road. Their solution? Rush a deal with Isuzu to rebadge the Rodeo with the Honda nameplate. The result? Poor reliability tied to the previously unblemished Honda name - bad move, Honda.

Now Toyota, on the other hand, makes sure that they get it RIGHT the first time and what response do they get from WWest? Complainin!

[wwest]

Complainin!

Me?

NOT!

Just stating the facts.

I have no cause to complain, I dropped off the wait list years (seems like) ago. Now that Lexus is marketing to the HP/Torque set and not their Prius base I'm rather glad I did.

Back when I worked at Boeing if a vendor delayed the scheduled delivery of a machine tool we always sent an engineer to look into the reason. You just simply wouldn't believe some of the things we learned that way.

[SW03ES]

wwest- Because some dealers are offering first come first serve doesnt mean the demand has wained. Its up to each dealership whether they want to take pre-orders or just sell them as they come. It was the same way with the Prius.

[RX400h]

Complainin!

Me?

NOT!

Just stating the facts.

I have no cause to complain, I dropped off the wait list years (seems like) ago. Now that Lexus is marketing to the HP/Torque set and not their Prius base I'm rather glad I did.

Back when I worked at Boeing if a vendor delayed the scheduled delivery of a machine tool we always sent an engineer to look into the reason. You just simply wouldn't believe some of the things we learned that way.

←

I presume, then that everything you plan goes perfectly and is finished right on time? Have you ever ordered anything from another vendor, only to be told at the last minute that the order is delayed? Toyota does NOT make most of what they assemble. The nickel metal hydride batteries used in the RX400h are not produced by Toyota. One of the reasons for the launch delay was to make certain there were sufficient quantities of batteries. Would you have preferred that ultra-limited numbers of RX400hs be shipped last Fall, driving prices through the roof?

BTW, I noticed in yesterday's paper that someone is selling their place on the list for the RX400h for $5000. I guess you missed out when you bailed as early as you did! :chairshot:

[wwest]

With that kind of demand, if true, wouldn't most dealers who didn't take pre-orders and are still getting allocations find some way to blackmarket the cars for say, at least 10% over MSRP?

On one hand we have someone trying to sell their place in line for $5,000, and on the other we have dealers who are getting allocation without pre-orders.

Does that make sense to anyone?

Certainly not to me!

Unless it ends up that there are NO takers for the $5,000 offer, then I will understand.

[SW03ES]

Some dealers do that, they certainly did with the Prius. The dealer we bought ours from had no wait list when other dealers had 10 months but was selling them at MSRP first come first serve. Soon after we bought ours they started selling them at a 5k premium.

Some Toyota dealers actually deleted their lists to auction them as they came in really *BLEEP*ing customers off.

Lexus on the other hand seriously frowns on charging over MSRP. Some dealers did that with the SC430 and Lexus responded by no longer sending them cars until they agreed to sell them at MSRP or keep a list. Thats why Lexus dealers dont do that with the 400h.

Makes perfect sense when you realize all dealerships are independently owned and they do business differently. Demands for hybrid vehicles are also higher in different areas of the country. For instance dealers here STILL have months of lists for the Prius while dealers in the midwest have them sitting on the lots and are selling at a discount.