Is It Too Late To Switch To Synthetic Oil?

coolwater · July 14, 2004

My 2000 ES300 now has 53K miles on it. I've read many posts regarding synthetic oil and many have said it often causes a leakage if you switch too late. I don't think 53K is too high for Lexus standard, but what do you think?

FreddT · July 15, 2004

I switched to synthetic for my LS400 with 99K miles. Now have 104K. No problems. And I watch my garage floor for leaks like a hawk.

SW03ES · July 15, 2004

Naa you should be able to switch.

sgriffith · July 15, 2004

I switched to synthetic around 65K on my RX (1999) and had leaks. I actually ended up getting my rear main seal replaced. So, I don't recommend it, but I am no mechanic.

gbhrps · July 17, 2004

Why would you bother putting synthetic oil into the car in the first place? Are you going to race it? Are you going to keep the car and not trade until it has 600 000 miles on it? If so, then synthetic may be the way to go. If not, save your money and do regular oil changes at the recommended times, with the recommended oil viscosity. Toyota makes great engines. My last two cars (Toyota Cressidas) went over 370 000 km before I traded them, without an engine related problem. (Sorry, a mouse ate up the ignition wires on one of them.) There's 148 000 km on the present ES, and I suspect it will go well over 300 000 before I look to trade it on another Lexus. Its the same kettle of fish with using premium fuel when the car was designed for regular. Check the threads on that topic. Most of respondents couldn't tell the difference between how the car ran with the two fuels, ...and their cars couldn't either. Pay the extra money if you must, for something that you'll never derive any benefit from, but the oil company will. Me, I'll save the money to use for new tires, the next brake job, timing belt service, or (heaven forbid) a door repaint where some idiot opened his door into mine.

dcfish · July 17, 2004

Never too late , drop the oil and run it for 1000 mi. and drop it again then fill with your fovorite flavor of synthetic , then every 5000 and you ;) will sleep well :cheers:

hammer008 · July 17, 2004

Never too late , drop the oil and run it for 1000 mi. and drop it again then fill with your fovorite flavor of synthetic , then every 5000 and you ;) will sleep well

I went with a semi-synthetic at 140000km without any problems...no leakage detected.

Nunyabiz · July 19, 2004

just make sure you flush out the engine a couple times with fresh oil and maybe something like this

http://www.auto-rx.com/

I have never used this, but might be worth a try.

THEN put in your Synthetic, once the engine is clean

monarch · July 19, 2004

A Toyota run on conventional oil will stay clean inside regardless of mileage

http://www.saber.net/~monarch/329.cor.jpg as long as it has been changed at least

every 6 months or 5000 miles.

Purists will say: "I can see some surface varnish in that picture".

Yes, surface varnish is normal in an engine that has been run on conventional oil, but it's just a cosmetic thing that does not affect oil circulation or engine operation.

Nunyabiz · July 21, 2004

That picture is of a 1989 Corolla which does not have this problem of the oil not draining back down into the oil pan properly, nor does it have the very high cylinder head temps.

Show me a pic of a 1997 Camry with 300,000 miles on it with 5K drain times with standard petroleum oil and point will be noted.

Until then I still say you are much better off running 100% synthetic and draining every 5K or so, synthetic actually CLEANS your engine as you run, does NOT break down, has very little if any oxidation within 7500 miles.

Petroleum oil starts to break down within 5 min after fresh oil change. The cylinder head temps on this engine reach over 260deg, that WILL break down petroleum based oil, that temp will not even effect 100% synthetic oil.

Granted if you are meticulous with your oil changes doing them every 3K miles odds are very good you wont have any problems anyway, even though that petroleum oil after just 3K miles on it has no where near its original protection/properties, but that still doesn't change the fact that 100% synthetic is a FAR superior oil that all but alleviates the possibility of sludge forming in the first place.

You cant have a sludge problem with an oil that doesn't break down or oxidize.

Thus doing an oil change in the "recommended" 5-7500 mile intervals are not a problem, and are not anymore expensive at all since you can safely get more than 7500 miles out of that oil without any problem regardless of your driving conditions & habits.

I fail to see why this is even a debatable issue.

Im actually quite surprised that Toyota just doesn't come right out and recommend synthetic oil be used.

Then of course there is the other extreme which is basically NO oil changes at all with Synthetics, or at most every 50K+ miles like this.

http://www.synlube.com/testcars.htm

Here is another independent test done on Synthetics, so far they have only completed the Mobil 1 part, and probably about 1/2 way through the Amsoil part.

Currently it is hard to say, but Amsoil seems to be a bit better at the 9000 mile mark, time will tell.

But either one is FAR superior to what a top quality Petroleum based oil would register, that test would probably end by the 3000 mile mark.

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/oil-life.html

Synthetic>Petroleum

coolwater · July 21, 2004

Do Toyota or Lexus dealers provide the synthetic oil change service? (I think not... but, if yes, how much?)

SW03ES · July 21, 2004

Yes, but I wouldn't pay them for the oil. My dealer charges almost $20 a quart for synthetic oil (Mobil one which is about $5.30 a quart in the stores) so thats an extra $100 just for the oil. I always bring my own synthetic oil and they don't have a problem with that.

coolwater · July 21, 2004

If you bring your own oil, how much do they charge?

tundra-lover · July 21, 2004

$15. Not worth it!

And no, they do not usually carry any synthetic oil unless one of the tech's happen to have a case of it.

It's easy enough to do, you can do it!

coolwater · July 21, 2004

I know I can do it myself (if I learn to do it), but the only reason I haven't done it is that I wouldn't know what to do with the old oil. What's the best way of discarding the old oil? I heard that some Jiffy Lube shops take them at no cost as their service to the community. But, carrying one or two plastic 1-gallon milk bottles full of black motor oil around store to store and see if they'd take them just sounds inconvenient. Also, I don't drink milk so where would I get those bottles? :chairshot:

monarch · July 21, 2004

Show me a pic of a 1997 Camry with 300,000 miles on it with 5K drain times with standard petroleum oil and point will be noted.
Until then I still say you are much better off running 100% synthetic

On other Toyota forums I've heard owner testimonials of from '97 on up V6 Camry / Sienna/ Avalon owners that were in the 200,0000 - 300,000 mile range. All these owners did was use conventional oil and change it every 3000 - 5000 miles or 6 months.

Even though Toyota is obviously very knowledgeable about synthetic oils and oil analysis, Toyota strongly warns against extending oil changes when using synthetic motor oils. Therefore owners who disregard this advice are knowingly taking a risk of unknown proportions.

In addition, there is no demonstated engine wear, fuel economy or power gain benefits from using synthetic oils in Toyota engines. Therefore there is no return on the inventment for a Toyota owner to use synthetic oils.

SW03ES · July 22, 2004

$15. Not worth it!
And no, they do not usually carry any synthetic oil unless one of the tech's happen to have a case of it.

It's easy enough to do, you can do it!

All the Lexus dealers around here carry synthetic oil.

My dealer charges me $130 for a "Mini maint" which is their oil change when I bring my own oil. If I don't bring my oil and they use their own conventional oil the service is $160, so they charge $30 for conventional oil, which is $6 a quart (WAY overpricved). The "mini maint" includes a tire rotation, inspection of about a dozen things, topping off all fluids, a road test, a wash (which I don't let them do) and a loaner car if you want one.

Nunyabiz · July 22, 2004

In addition, there is no demonstated engine wear, fuel economy or power gain benefits from using synthetic oils in Toyota engines. Therefore there is no return on the inventment for a Toyota owner to use synthetic oils.

Not so, Iv seen many test that very clearly shows that synthetic oil gives greater protection especially after just 1000-2000 miles when Petroleum oils have already lost quite a bit of their properties, especially in these engines since they have such hot cylinder head temps which has little to no effect on the synthetic and breaks down the petroleum fast.

This fast break down is VERY pronounced in "Multigrade" petroleum oils, (You know, exactly the oil recommended and no doubt what you use 5W30W) This is because 5W30W "Petroleum" oil starts its life as a 5W base oil, then large polymer chains are ADDED to get the 30W rating, those chains break down FAST especially in an engine with such high cylinder head temps, which produces small chains with an open electron charge at the ends. These ends attract grim and form SLUDGE.

Here is an interesting fairly non biased (not done by some Amsoil or Mobil salesman) post from some NASA Engineer "Tribologist" that I think explains it well enough.

http://forums.yellowworld.org/archive/index.php/t-1136.html

Also that first 15-30 secs when you start your car up in the morning especially if it is cold outside is where you get allot of your engine wear, your internal parts are reciprocating with minimal lubrication that was left from your oil residue the last time you shut off your engine. This is where synthetic becomes important. The residue of synthetic has FAR superior lubrication and viscosity properties than regular oil, allowing more protection until the pump brings more to the top of the engine. Second, synthetic maintains viscous properties at far lower temperatures than any petroleum based oil and will be pumped to the top of the engine and flow through those journals much quicker.

I personally get approx. 1 Mpg more using Amsoil 5W30W than I did using whatever petroleum based oil that was in it when I got it.

I get 1 Mpg more in my Jeep also using synthetic.

That's not much but doesn't hurt, saves me maybe $2-3 a month in fuel tops.

But in the 6 months life cycle of the oil that's about $12-18 to help offset the cost of synthetic, Plus IF I were to use petroleum I would never let it go past 3k for an oil change, with synthetic I have no worries going to 5K at all.

You will notice Im not saying let the oil go to 12-25K miles, just only WHAT THE OWNERS MANUAL RECOMMENDS which is 5-7500, which as far as im concerned in these vehicles is too far for petroleum oil, the oil simply can not handle the heat these engines put out.

I have also come to the almost obvious conclusion that one of the main problems that these 3400+ people with engine failure due to Oil gelling is that these people most likely are thinking that they are doing everything exactly right, many probably think that they are not putting hard miles on their engine so opt for up to a 7K+ oil drain interval that the OWNERS MANUAL recommends, probably using whatever "Bulk" multigrade oil the dealership is throwing in there, running it for at least 6K up to maybe 8K miles then a couple 1000 miles down the road when that petroleum oil is clogging those drain holes from the cylinder heads thus making it "appear" as though they are as much as a full 1 quart LOW, they put in another quart which is Overfilling the engine which just makes matters way worse, causing the oil to froth and oxidize way quicker. That multigrade petroleum oil was actually history 4-5K miles back.

So technically since I spend on average $45-52 for an oil change, (I buy the oil and filter) then take it to Carmax (They have certified mechanics not the $6 help you get at jiffylube) which charges $29 for a change and $21 if you bring your own, I can also usually within that 6 months get a coupon in the mail for $5-10 off an oil change that I keep and put aside, so usually $15 or so is what I spend so I don't have to screw with oil disposal, I also stand right there and watch to make sure everything is done right. The Amsoil & Filter are $32.50. ($4.50x5 +$10)

A normal (petroleum)oil change comes to be just under $32 and is good for 3K MAX. IMO

That's about 3-31/2 months. so $64 for 6 months.

I if you call it that "Let my synthetic go" for 5-6K which is 6-7months which is extremely excessive for synthetic & I guarantee my Amsoil with 5K on it is performing much better, is protecting & CLEANING my engine better, than the petroleum oil is the day after you put it in.

Regular petroleum oil change $64 for 6 months

Amsoil for 6-7 months is $45-52

THEN I save approx. $12-18 in fuel cost using synthetic for 6-7months.

lets say an average of $15 savings from the $52 oil change comes out to approx. the equivalent of $37 compared to the guaranteed $64 I would spend on petroleum based oil.

You know when you first put in that fresh (petroleum) oil how your car sounds and runs? real smooth and sweet for the first few days, well my car keeps that fresh oil change sound and feel throughout the whole 6 months, because my oil is not breaking down nearly as much every mile I drive.

Ever wonder why everyone clearly states emphatically to never put synthetic in your brand new car with 0 miles on it?

It is because petroleum breaks down and does does NOT protect your engine even close to as well as synthetic, the rings will take a long time to "seat", what causes the rings to seat? metal on metal engine WEAR. So run petroleum oil for the first 500 miles then drain it out change oil filter, put in synthetic and your GTG. That fact alone should clue you in on how much better Synthetic oil protects your engine, regardless of drain intervals.

As you can see I would actually spend MORE $$ to run petroleum based oil since there is no way I would trust any multigrade petroleum in this engine much past 3K miles but I have no problems at all trusting synthetic oil to 5-6K which is well within recommended drain intervals.

This whole discussion reminds me of some Religion Vs Reality debate, kinda funny actually.

We have the religious (petroleum users) on one side preaching out of that old bible, "believing" and having "faith" in that old petroleum oil.

Then the Atheist (synthetic users) simply going by common sense and empirical evidence and scientific fact that quite clearly is on their side.

I know what I know, others believe what they believe. B)

mburnickas · July 22, 2004

You have a good post here and I am not trying to throw in a “money wrench” but since 1994 I have seen zero increase using Amsoil; or it is to small an increase to tell. I have used in things from my tractor, to my car, motorcycle etc. Do I like it yes, is it the best oil out there, No way. For the money I feel it is the best “bang for the dollar” though. Mobil was good in the 90’s and they even had the 10K mile drain, but that stopped but the price did not go down. If you like to drain at 3K miles I would not use it. If you like draining oil, so be it.

All I will say is see my lastest oil change tests results (as I am sure you have all seen). This is for my own car and other might differ by some delta. Can someone show there es300 with lets say 7500 miles so we can at least show some kind of comparison? I know what the un-used oil teats are so I can compare it to my used sample. Looks pretty darn good.

Can you go longer 100% yes using a good-oil. Can you drain sooner, 100% yes you can. Drains are not set “in stone” to what you must do.

Next is some say synthetic is not needed. You are 100% correct; but then again we do not need cars, phones, etc since we can use a horse and buggy and mail respectfully.

This is the great oil debate from 1970+and will it change, not really unless the manufactures give a nice “warm and fuzzy” out there with drain intervals. Look at Europe they go 10 to 12K miles, not km, and thinking nothing of it. The good-old USA is still stuck on the 3K mile drains. Give it a few years and it will change. Nevermind the fact that synthetic is nothing new here. You can thank Hitler for making it. Nutbag....

I started doing to short drain when I was in high school, then I at least went by the book (higher miles). Then I went longer and now I am here. All the testing I have done, as never come back bad on any of my cars. My motorcycle was perfect except for 1.1% fuel in the oil. My diesel was high in silicones due to the oil glazed air filter. This was because of my extensive idling and a lot of starts on the bike.

To go back on the topic at hand, someone stated it correctly. If there is sludge covering up holes, leaks in gaskets (preventing Leaks) the synthetic will clean the sludge and cause leaks. Does it directly cause leaks, No. The leaks were always there. Also synthetic about 10 years ago never have seal enlargers in it so that was bad. Now they are fine. I have used a synthetic from my truck with 00008.2 miles, my bike with 00018.7 miles (both new) to my used Lexus with 41K miles etc and never had a leak. My tractor and wifes MB were both new too. Works fine.

I know on my wifes old cars (87 Toyota and a 94 accord) 4 bangers with oil changed every 5K miles with petroleum, the oil dipsticks had a lot of yellowish varnish on it. The T had car had 160K miles on it and the accord had 130K when we sold them. Is it still running, yup and see them all the time. But I would not want to open the valve covers on the those things! Plus I would not put synthetic oil in there due to its age and it is not worth it. Nevermind the T leaked like a sponge and the accord just started. Yes it looks nice to see the high miles but look at all the $$$$ it took to keep it running. No one ever talks about that.

My Lexus is still young in miles, (76,932 as of today) and it is perfect and the car runs mint. I will be doing yet another 12,000 mile oil-change (YES again) to compare the oils at the same mileage on oils. This will be the best test in my book. You can have shorter drains but the oil does not show a linear pattern. Plus levels affect other levels and not the same.

coolwater · July 22, 2004

So technically since I spend on average $45-52 for an oil change, (I buy the oil and filter) then take it to Carmax (They have certified mechanics not the $6 help you get at jiffylube) which charges $29 for a change and $21 if you bring your own, I can also usually within that 6 months get a coupon in the mail for $5-10 off an oil change that I keep and put aside, so usually $15 or so is what I spend so I don't have to screw with oil disposal, I also stand right there and watch to make sure everything is done right. The Amsoil & Filter are $32.50. ($4.50x5 +$10)

My local auto shop charges only $12.99+tax (with coupon) for an oil change with Valvoline motor oil and they even include free tire rotation! That's a really good deal. However, I asked the guy there if I could bring my own oil and he said no.

I didn't know Carmax lets you bring your own oil. But, $21 seems a bit much when you can get a regular oil change around $20 at most places. (Jiffy Lube costs over $30 even WITH coupon--obviously, I don't use them anymore)

Maybe, I will just have to learn to do it myself.

monarch · July 22, 2004

Then the Atheist (synthetic users) simply going by common sense and empirical evidence and scientific fact that quite clearly is on their side.

It's the major oil companies that have been selling synthetics for 20-30 years who have failed to provide the public with the results of side by side tests of identical cars / engines running synthetic & conventional oil to show whether or not their are power gains, fuel economy gains or engine life gains when using synthetics.

Therefore some Lexus owners who are not using synthetics are rejecting them because the synthetic oil companies have failed to provide them with REAL WORLD "empirical evidence and scientific facts." We are experienced in both business and science and realize that big business often uses clever subliminal advertizing techniques to get the public to IMAGINE benefits

like power, fuel economy and engine life gains without actually ever providing data demonstrating such gains.

And like I said before, even though the Toyota engineers are familiar with synthetic oils and scientific oil analysis, they nevertheless still STRONGLY warn against extending oil changes when using synthetics and adviseagainst switching back and forth between synthetic and conventional oil Therefore, common sense dictates that synthetic advocates who advise Toyota owners

to disregard this advice are knowingly advising them to take a risk of accelerating wear or having other problems with their engines. That's not appropriate behavior for anyone who claims to be guided by "emperical evidence and scientific fact".

mburnickas · July 22, 2004

Hi monarch-

You are 100% correct and it has been around for along time and has shown proof that it works. But, on the flip side it could be the best thing in the world and if people do not feel ok, then it will not work.

Example look at laundry soap, about 10 years ago someone invented a soap that worked 10X better then what we have now. It was proven to work better and it did in lab tests and in the real world on a testing team. But since it did not have suds or bubbles people thought it did not work. So what happens, they stop making it.

Samething with the synthetics here; however, I can’t say it does not work since it has been used in everything from jet engines, cars, etc. Yes it works but people see the upfront cost and say, “ya right are you kidding”. Most people do not think about cost 10 years down the road, only today’s budget or this year.

The oil people could show a gain, power etc but most people need to weight this into the product. I did not see any gains to what you stated in your post. The HUGE impact for me is less oil changes, time –which is $$$ and my wear rates in my oil test are damn good. My family’s time is worth 5 qt of synthetic oil and cellulose, glass filter. Never mind finding a place to return it, bottling it up, bring receipt etc. Plus why do most people want their engine to last 600K miles when 40 to 50% of cars are leased? Why would they care to spend the extra money? It does not make practical sense here. Plus the cheaper oils are very cheap and again, people look at price VERY hard. Do I buy this $1.50 qt oil and get some crackers and milk (in Wal-mart) or buy the Mobil 1 at $4.50 with no crackers and milk and I still change oil at 3K miles? Basic math can do this one.

Back to real work evidence, hell I am doing it like many other people. I am not breaking new ground here. I am not that smart. The problem with extended, yes problem is that most people are clueless on how, the process to do oil changes and why it works. People want to get in their car and drive. It is not just put oil into a car and say it is good for XXX miles period! Not even Amsoil states that. Look at Amsoil diesels oil. They can go 100X longer then they post on paper, but there are a lot of variables to contend with. If Amsoil users read Amsoil warranty, there are a lot of things in there that must be working up to par. It is not a “fill and forget”. Plus look at it from a Lexus financial standpoint with extended drains. You are opening a MAJOR can of worms here. You will have a range of smart users all the way to morons doing it. And look what WILL happen. You will have some moron guess at something that is not spelled out in there manual and will sue. Plus who defines how long the oil is good for and correlate that to all users? Then some other person will do the same. It is much safer for Lexus to play on the conservative side and do not rock the boat unless told too by the EPA (gov) etc. Plus people will have a very hard time believing that things change. Most people HATE change but change is all happening.

Lastly, extended drains do not caused accelerated wear. They are a lot of moving parts in an engine and oil is just one. Are synthetic for all, no way. Is it over kill for a car? Depends how you look at it and what your application is. I did not want to turn this in a Amsoil thread but you get the point. There are other oil that also do extended drains.

amf1932 · July 22, 2004

mburnickas-

They are a lot of moving parts in an engine and oil is just one.

Please explain this statement since oil is the only means of lubricating metal to metal parts. :rolleyes:

mburnickas · July 22, 2004

Sure oil flows through many different material (Al, Cu, Pb, Ni etc). These parts all move since the engine has piston, cams, bearings etc and thus these items are mostly lubed by oil or coolant if you have a bad sleeve or cyl wall or bad turbo, ext cooler etc. All these moving parts wear to some degree (ppm) and the oil carries the particles into the oil. If you have a bad or cheap oil filter good luck.

Next, if you have a major soot problem do not blamn the oil. The oil is the effect of something gone wrong. Look for the source of the soot.

Lastly, notice I said moving parts not multi moving fluids. :D