Hyundai Genesis Beats Lexus 350

[1990LS400]

Not really...the topic was the Genesis compared to the Lexus ES, and we're discussing Hyundai's effort to compete with luxury nameplates like Lexus without its own luxury branding division...

How I spent my Columbus Day holiday ...

The Hyundai/Equus dealer is a few blocks away from the shop that replaced the tint on a side window this morning so afterward I test drove a "base" 2011 Equus. "Base" means air suspension, nav, power reclining/heated rear seats, rear audio controls, etc. etc.

Noticing that the left rear tire on the LS had gone flat from a roofing nail in the tread, I then visited the Lexus dealer where I had the tire fixed, all four tires road force balanced and test drove an LS460L. The LS460L I drove was an all wheel drive version with nav and without a rear seat power package.

I drove the Equus further and harder than I drove the LS460L -- mainly because I found the Equus more enjoyable to drive and much less "numb" than the LS460L. The really weird thing is that I found my 11+ year old 2000 LS400 more enjoyable to drive than the LS460L. And the Equus was by about the same margin more enjoyable than my LS400.

Laugh if you like but I'm thinking there's a Hyundai in my future.

[SW03ES]

I'm not laughing at all, nobodys saying they aren't great cars. I'm just saying without a luxury brand they're never going to have the same commercial success Lexus has had in e US.

As an aside, I too thought the LWB LS was a little barge-esque.

[gatoman39]

Laugh if you like but I'm thinking there's a Hyundai in my future.

The Genesis isn't as refined in terms of the pillow like ride quality as the LS. It's definitely more stiff-legged and entertaining. Some people will like that, just like some people who love Mercs, hate the way BMW's drive and vice versa.

I'm more of a BMW type so I really like the Genesis. With that said, I still drive the 95 LS, and use it as the beater. It's never stranded me and I'll keep driving it till it dies, but I don't think I'd get another one over the value proposition that Hyundai is delivering, especially in this fiscal environment.

[RX350lover]

A good source for info about the Genesis and Equus: http://www.genesisowners.com/hyundai-genesis-forum/showthread.php?t=2792

[pj8708]

The Hyundai line is not a luxury car line. The Lexus group of products is a luxury car line. All Lexus products are manufactured separately, designed specifically, and serviced solely as luxury automobiles. Out of their extensive line, Hyundai makes two cars that are luxury appointed cars.

Even after nearly a century of name recognition, people still use the phrase "such and such is the Cadillac of ....". The sale of Cadillac cars isn't what it used to be but the image of luxury is still a part of the American lexicon. The Genesis is an excellent car and creates a competitive player for the ES price range. But Hyundai is going to have to do more than come out with a couple of cars that they market as luxury if they want to be a full fledged luxury car line. Almost every manufacturer has a upscale/premium car in their line. But just because Ford has Lincoln,(when is the last time you thought of Lexus, Mercedes, and Lincoln all in the same thought), doesn't mean the consumer views Ford as a luxury car company.

Cadillac began and remains a luxury badge. Hyundai has begun as a economy brand and will have to invest heavily and for decades to establish itself as solely a luxury brand.

I don't think that the ES350 is directly in danger from the Genesis as the Genesis buyer will be a buyer of practicality, value over luxury, and won't care about badge/snob appeal.

[rob_es350]

The Hyundai line is not a luxury car line. The Lexus group of products is a luxury car line. All Lexus products are manufactured separately, designed specifically, and serviced solely as luxury automobiles. Out of their extensive line, Hyundai makes two cars that are luxury appointed cars.

Even after nearly a century of name recognition, people still use the phrase "such and such is the Cadillac of ....". The sale of Cadillac cars isn't what it used to be but the image of luxury is still a part of the American lexicon. The Genesis is an excellent car and creates a competitive player for the ES price range. But Hyundai is going to have to do more than come out with a couple of cars that they market as luxury if they want to be a full fledged luxury car line. Almost every manufacturer has a upscale/premium car in their line. But just because Ford has Lincoln,(when is the last time you thought of Lexus, Mercedes, and Lincoln all in the same thought), doesn't mean the consumer views Ford as a luxury car company.

Cadillac began and remains a luxury badge. Hyundai has begun as a economy brand and will have to invest heavily and for decades to establish itself as solely a luxury brand.

I don't think that the ES350 is directly in danger from the Genesis as the Genesis buyer will be a buyer of practicality, value over luxury, and won't care about badge/snob appeal.

decades is a loooong, time...loyalties can fall way quicker than that imo

look, the luxury car market is in trouble from all over..showrooms are empty and sales are horrible

the luxury market is losing share to it's so called "non-luxury" competitors and that trend should continue

feature rich cars are all over the place and at reasonable price points..sooo many all wheel drives, etc, available that really are great cars, though the reliability will take some time to rival the Japanese

nissan recently built a new showroom replacing an older one not too far from me, and it is empty day after day, even weekends..lot is filled with unsold cars...pretty much the same for all the dealerships, at least in my area

hey, money is dirt cheap, awesome time to buy a car if in good shape financially

[RX350lover]

The Hyundai line is not a luxury car line. The Lexus group of products is a luxury car line. All Lexus products are manufactured separately, designed specifically, and serviced solely as luxury automobiles. Out of their extensive line, Hyundai makes two cars that are luxury appointed cars.

Even after nearly a century of name recognition, people still use the phrase "such and such is the Cadillac of ....". The sale of Cadillac cars isn't what it used to be but the image of luxury is still a part of the American lexicon. The Genesis is an excellent car and creates a competitive player for the ES price range. But Hyundai is going to have to do more than come out with a couple of cars that they market as luxury if they want to be a full fledged luxury car line. Almost every manufacturer has a upscale/premium car in their line. But just because Ford has Lincoln,(when is the last time you thought of Lexus, Mercedes, and Lincoln all in the same thought), doesn't mean the consumer views Ford as a luxury car company.

Cadillac began and remains a luxury badge. Hyundai has begun as a economy brand and will have to invest heavily and for decades to establish itself as solely a luxury brand.

I don't think that the ES350 is directly in danger from the Genesis as the Genesis buyer will be a buyer of practicality, value over luxury, and won't care about badge/snob appeal.

There is one point in favor of Lexus you omitted; Lexus products are mature, while the Genesis and Equus are a 'work-in-progress'.

[SW03ES]

decades is a loooong, time...loyalties can fall way quicker than that imo

look, the luxury car market is in trouble from all over..showrooms are empty and sales are horrible

the luxury market is losing share to it's so called "non-luxury" competitors and that trend should continue

Do you have some kind of source for this? All the data I've seen has shown that luxury car sales are hanging in there...

[gatoman39]

decades is a loooong, time...loyalties can fall way quicker than that imo

look, the luxury car market is in trouble from all over..showrooms are empty and sales are horrible

the luxury market is losing share to it's so called "non-luxury" competitors and that trend should continue

Do you have some kind of source for this? All the data I've seen has shown that luxury car sales are hanging in there...

It's sort of bifurcated. Some are doing better than they ever have like BMW, while others are floundering like Lincoln. Lexus has been losing mkt share as has Acura. For Lexus a lot of it has to do with a confluence of many things. Lexus product cycle right now is a bit long in the tooth with many models due for overhaul in the next few years. Not to mention bad PR from the unintended acceleration BS and a brand image problem for building precise, reliable, boring, appliance-like vehicles. The financial crisis has made the yen very strong and harder for Japanese exports, and the tsunami has made a bad situation worse.

[RX350lover]

An interesting Canadian report.

As has been the trend, three German brands sit atop the half-year new luxury vehicle sales charts.

In an overall new luxury vehicle market that was up 2.7 per cent for the first six months of 2011 compared with 2010, Mercedes-Benz continues as the best-selling luxury brand in Canada, with sales up by 6.5 per cent with 15,735 vehicles sold.

With sales up 11.5 per cent, rival German brand BMW remains in second-place with sales of 12,964 new cars and trucks

Taking third spot in the mid-year luxury brand sales race was Audi. The Volkswagen Group’s luxury brand continued its torrid sales growth with 8,819 new vehicles sold, a gain of 18.8 per cent compared to 2010.

While both suffered double-digit declines compared with this time last year, Japan’s Lexus and Acura battled it out for fourth- and fifth-places, with Toyota’s Lexus just nipping Honda’s Acura by 36 vehicles — 6,492 to 6,456.

The remaining five luxury brands saw both sales increases and decreases for the first six months of 2011.

With sales up 7.5 per cent, China’s Volvo sold 3,657 vehicles, taking sixth-place, followed by Nissan’s Infiniti, which saw sales drop to 3,245 cars and trucks, down 17.3 per cent compared with the first half of 2010.

Rounding out the bottom three, Jaguar/Land Rover’s sales of 1,833 vehicles is an increase of 13 per cent, compared with the first six months of 2010.

Ninth-place VW’s Porsche brand sales are up by a substantial 43.6 per cent to 1,396 vehicles sold while the handful of Saab dealers in Canada managed to sell just 88 cars through to the end of June.

Porsche plans to introduce a new model every year

The Volkswagen Group’s luxury Porsche brand is selling more cars around the world than ever before.

And to keep showroom traffic humming, the German brand is planning on introducing a new model every year.

In a post-recession economy, Porsche is enjoying a resurgence in sales. For the first half of 2011, global sales rose 36.8 per cent to 60,659 deliveries, mainly due to non-traditional Porsche offerings like the Cayenne SUV and Panamera sedan models.

This September at the Frankfurt auto show, Porsche will unveil the next-generation of its venerable 911 sports car. Next, a compact SUV, tentatively called the “Cajun”, is set for 2013. But the German brand isn’t stopping there.

In a report from Automotive News Europe, Porsche officials confirmed a new super car will be added to slot between the topline 911 GT2 RS and the forthcoming 918 Spyder hybrid.

Further into the future, Porsche is also looking at expanding its next-generation Panamera lineup for 2014/15.

In a report form the U.K.’s Autocar, Porsche is said to be working on a new, two-door model based on a short-wheelbase version of the next Panamera’s chassis, similar to the 928 coupé from the late 1970s.

The new coupé and soft-top convertible would allow Porsche to compete against the likes of the Aston Martin DB9, Bentley Continental and Ferrari California.

A third Panamera body style, a sporty “shooting brake” wagon like the Mercedes CLS wagon due in 2012/13, has also been reported as a possibility.

Hyundai, Kia both planning upscale models

There’s little doubt that Korea’s Hyundai-Kia Motors is on a roll.

In its 2011 half-year analysis of the Canadian new vehicle market, industry analyst firm DesRosiers & Associates reported that while the Japanese brands have seen a collective sales drop of 9.6 per cent, Hyundai-Kia Motors has seen a sales increase of 14.8 per cent, compared with the first half of 2010.

And now, building on that success, several reports foresee the pair of Korean brands expanding their lineups beyond the traditional budget-oriented offerings, with even more luxurious and performance models coming down the pipe.

The U.S. website Inside Line is reporting that an industry “rumour” sees Hyundai developing a super car that would cost between $80,000 and $100,000 and take on some of the more respected high-performance cars like the Nissan GT-R and the Porsche 911.

Allegedly, the Hyundai super car would be a two-door coupé. Power would come from the current Genesis R-Spec sedan’s 429 hp 5.0-litre V8 engine. Also, owners would get the same “perks” as buyers of the Equus sedan, including an iPad owner’s manual and pick-up and delivery service when the car needs servicing.

In a separate report from Australia’s The Age, Hyundai’s Kia sister brand is working on its own flagship.

Dubbed the K9, the new Kia sedan will allegedly be sized between the Genesis and larger Equus Hyundai four-doors.

Expected to debut at this September’s Frankfurt auto show, the rear-wheel-drive Kia is targeted at established European midsize sedans like the BMW 5 Series, and might be offered with a 4.0-litre V8 with about 400 hp.

The report says K9 prototypes have been spotted in South Korea during testing.

Audi looks to build cars in North America

After nearly abandoning the North American market in the late 1980s, the Volkswagen Group’s Audi luxury brand has confirmed that it will start building cars in the U.S. sooner rather than later.

"It is totally clear that we need new production capacity in the U.S.," Audi CEO Rupert Stadler said in an interview with Automotive News.

"The question only is when."

Throughout the world, Audi is running into a nice problem. Demand for its cars is outstripping supply. A North American facility would go a long way to not only meet growing demand here, but also help offset currency fluctuation costs caused by importing vehicles outside of the North American Free Trade zone.

Under Audi's "Strategy 2020" plan, Stadler said the brand aims to nearly double its global sales by the end of the decade. Last year, Audi sold 1.1 million new cars.

So far in 2011, Audi Canada’s sales are up 18.8 per cent, with 8,819 vehicles sold.

Stadler said Audi plans to increase American sales by 10 to 20 per cent this year and could surpass 150,000 units by 2015.

In addition to an American assembly plant, the automaker is looking at building an engine and transmission plant in North America to increase local content.

That second plant may end up as an expansion of VW’s new U.S. plant that is currently building its Passat sedan.

http://www.thestar.com/wheels/article/1025329--who-s-no-1-in-luxury-car-sales

[SW03ES]

It's sort of bifurcated. Some are doing better than they ever have like BMW, while others are floundering like Lincoln. Lexus has been losing mkt share as has Acura. For Lexus a lot of it has to do with a confluence of many things. Lexus product cycle right now is a bit long in the tooth with many models due for overhaul in the next few years. Not to mention bad PR from the unintended acceleration BS and a brand image problem for building precise, reliable, boring, appliance-like vehicles. The financial crisis has made the yen very strong and harder for Japanese exports, and the tsunami has made a bad situation worse.

I don't think the issue for Lexus is really one of perception, that seems to have died off, I think its more that almost all of their models are ripe for redesign, and delays in rolling those new models out due to the Tsunami. Its largely the same problem with Acura, although Acura has a *really* tired lineup at this point...

Think about it, the only Lexus vehicle out right now that isn't an SUV and is less than 5-6 years old is the Ct200h. The LS, ES, GS, IS...all from '06. '07 model year for all but the GS, but they came out in '06 just the same.

[LexBob2]

It makes you wonder what the strategy was to introduce so many models close to one another and then have them age at the same time. The new models will be interesting but not good for sales in the meantime.

[SW03ES]

I know, I've always kind of thought that...

I remember the same discussions around 2005-2006 before all the new models came out.

[rob_es350]

decades is a loooong, time...loyalties can fall way quicker than that imo

look, the luxury car market is in trouble from all over..showrooms are empty and sales are horrible

the luxury market is losing share to it's so called "non-luxury" competitors and that trend should continue

Do you have some kind of source for this? All the data I've seen has shown that luxury car sales are hanging in there...

after the crash, I believe sales for everything are up except for the real low gas mileage cars

however,the luxury market recovered the least, if I am recalling correctly meaining that they lost share to everything else

I will find a link to some data that is easily understandable..some of this stuff requires a bit of reading and interpretation

[rob_es350]

decades is a loooong, time...loyalties can fall way quicker than that imo

look, the luxury car market is in trouble from all over..showrooms are empty and sales are horrible

the luxury market is losing share to it's so called "non-luxury" competitors and that trend should continue

Do you have some kind of source for this? All the data I've seen has shown that luxury car sales are hanging in there...

after the crash, I believe sales for everything are up except for the real low gas mileage cars

however,the luxury market recovered the least, if I am recalling correctly meaining that they lost share to everything else

I will find a link to some data that is easily understandable..some of this stuff requires a bit of reading and interpretation

here is a good one with year over year, and ytd right up front..real interesting data on the other charts there too

http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html

[SW03ES]

I mean...I don't see how that data can lead you to the conclusion that:

look, the luxury car market is in trouble from all over..showrooms are empty and sales are horrible

the luxury market is losing share to it's so called "non-luxury" competitors and that trend should continue

[RX350lover]

decades is a loooong, time...loyalties can fall way quicker than that imo

look, the luxury car market is in trouble from all over..showrooms are empty and sales are horrible

the luxury market is losing share to it's so called "non-luxury" competitors and that trend should continue

Do you have some kind of source for this? All the data I've seen has shown that luxury car sales are hanging in there...

after the crash, I believe sales for everything are up except for the real low gas mileage cars

however,the luxury market recovered the least, if I am recalling correctly meaining that they lost share to everything else

I will find a link to some data that is easily understandable..some of this stuff requires a bit of reading and interpretation

here is a good one with year over year, and ytd right up front..real interesting data on the other charts there too

http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html

The situation in America is not necessarily representative of what's happening in the whole world...

Here's a quote from the article I posted above: "Throughout the world, Audi is running into a nice problem. Demand for its cars is outstripping supply. A North American facility would go a long way to not only meet growing demand here, but also help offset currency fluctuation costs caused by importing vehicles outside of the North American Free Trade zone."

Most luxury car makers have increased their world wide sales.

Americans...

[pj8708]

I mean...I don't see how that data can lead you to the conclusion that:

look, the luxury car market is in trouble from all over..showrooms are empty and sales are horrible

the luxury market is losing share to it's so called "non-luxury" competitors and that trend should continue

I agree. Luxury car sales are doing fine and Lexus specifically, has been able to sell all of the inventory it can produce after the quake. Remember June and July?..., when everyone was complaining about not having any new or pre-owned inventory because they were selling out of their in-house stock and not getting anything out of Japan?

Just reading the post on various web-sites and reading the auto enthusiast press, it seems pretty obvious that people are eager for, and buying luxury cars at a pretty steady clip. For what ever reason, buyers are confident in their purchase regardless of the economy. Perhaps it is a way of saying I am living and working through hell, and I have survived so this is my family's reward.

[RX350lover]

I mean...I don't see how that data can lead you to the conclusion that:

look, the luxury car market is in trouble from all over..showrooms are empty and sales are horrible

the luxury market is losing share to it's so called "non-luxury" competitors and that trend should continue

I agree. Luxury car sales are doing fine and Lexus specifically, has been able to sell all of the inventory it can produce after the quake. Remember June and July?..., when everyone was complaining about not having any new or pre-owned inventory because they were selling out of their in-house stock and not getting anything out of Japan?

Just reading the post on various web-sites and reading the auto enthusiast press, it seems pretty obvious that people are eager for, and buying luxury cars at a pretty steady clip. For what ever reason, buyers are confident in their purchase regardless of the economy. Perhaps it is a way of saying I am living and working through hell, and I have survived so this is my family's reward.

Wealthy people are usually not affected by recession. If you have $100 million, it doesn't matter if your net worth drops down to $80 million, you can still buy any car you wish. The luxury segment is usually unaffected by difficult economic time.

[rob_es350]

I mean...I don't see how that data can lead you to the conclusion that:

look, the luxury car market is in trouble from all over..showrooms are empty and sales are horrible

the luxury market is losing share to it's so called "non-luxury" competitors and that trend should continue

steve,

year over year % change is the worst for luxury cars, other than large cars/SUVS

that means that they are losing share to ALL other categories

the most recent quarter does show a big improvement, so perhaps the crash is behind them for now

[rob_es350]

decades is a loooong, time...loyalties can fall way quicker than that imo

look, the luxury car market is in trouble from all over..showrooms are empty and sales are horrible

the luxury market is losing share to it's so called "non-luxury" competitors and that trend should continue

Do you have some kind of source for this? All the data I've seen has shown that luxury car sales are hanging in there...

It's sort of bifurcated. Some are doing better than they ever have like BMW, while others are floundering like Lincoln. Lexus has been losing mkt share as has Acura. For Lexus a lot of it has to do with a confluence of many things. Lexus product cycle right now is a bit long in the tooth with many models due for overhaul in the next few years. Not to mention bad PR from the unintended acceleration BS and a brand image problem for building precise, reliable, boring, appliance-like vehicles. The financial crisis has made the yen very strong and harder for Japanese exports, and the tsunami has made a bad situation worse.

agree

[rob_es350]

I mean...I don't see how that data can lead you to the conclusion that:

look, the luxury car market is in trouble from all over..showrooms are empty and sales are horrible

the luxury market is losing share to it's so called "non-luxury" competitors and that trend should continue

I agree. Luxury car sales are doing fine and Lexus specifically, has been able to sell all of the inventory it can produce after the quake. Remember June and July?..., when everyone was complaining about not having any new or pre-owned inventory because they were selling out of their in-house stock and not getting anything out of Japan?

Just reading the post on various web-sites and reading the auto enthusiast press, it seems pretty obvious that people are eager for, and buying luxury cars at a pretty steady clip. For what ever reason, buyers are confident in their purchase regardless of the economy. Perhaps it is a way of saying I am living and working through hell, and I have survived so this is my family's reward.

Wealthy people are usually not affected by recession. If you have $100 million, it doesn't matter if your net worth drops down to $80 million, you can still buy any car you wish. The luxury segment is usually unaffected by difficult economic time.

it was devastated by the financial crisis

[SW03ES]

year over year % change is the worst for luxury cars, other than large cars/SUVS

that means that they are losing share to ALL other categories

the most recent quarter does show a big improvement, so perhaps the crash is behind them for now

You're assigning your own bias into this data.

Just because the luxury car segment is not growing at the same rate as the mid market segment doesn't mean that luxury car buyers are buying mid market cars instead of luxury cars. It means...that all segments are growing, its just mid market segments are growing more. It could mean many other things, that luxury car owners are keeping their cars longer, that there aren't as many new luxury car models as new mid market car models out in 2011 vs 2010 that would skew the data.

For instance, Honda shows a fairly big decline in sales from 2010 to 2011, using your logic that means Honda buyers must be buying Mercedes...since their numbers are up. It doesn't mean that at all.

You are also assuming that a carmaker would view flat sales from 2010 to 2011 as a bad thing.

The data you are looking for is not included in this link you've shown us.

[rob_es350]

year over year % change is the worst for luxury cars, other than large cars/SUVS

that means that they are losing share to ALL other categories

the most recent quarter does show a big improvement, so perhaps the crash is behind them for now

You're assigning your own bias into this data.

Just because the luxury car segment is not growing at the same rate as the mid market segment doesn't mean that luxury car buyers are buying mid market cars instead of luxury cars. It means...that all segments are growing, its just mid market segments are growing more. It could mean many other things, that luxury car owners are keeping their cars longer, that there aren't as many new luxury car models as new mid market car models out in 2011 vs 2010 that would skew the data.

For instance, Honda shows a fairly big decline in sales from 2010 to 2011, using your logic that means Honda buyers must be buying Mercedes...since their numbers are up. It doesn't mean that at all.

You are also assuming that a carmaker would view flat sales from 2010 to 2011 as a bad thing.

The data you are looking for is not included in this link you've shown us.

"market share" mean the % of cars vs the rest..so our difference is simply a matter of the interpretation of that term

luxury cars are losing share

that does not mean that luxury car owners are buying cars in other segments as you point out

if one segment is growing less than the others, you are losing share, it is just that simple, the reason doesn't matter to make that statement

perhaps an example:

if there are 1000 cars total in the world with only 2 segments each having a 50% share, if segment A does not grow, and segment B grows 50%, segment B now has 60% of the share..for whatever reason

[pj8708]

year over year % change is the worst for luxury cars, other than large cars/SUVS

that means that they are losing share to ALL other categories

the most recent quarter does show a big improvement, so perhaps the crash is behind them for now

You're assigning your own bias into this data.

Just because the luxury car segment is not growing at the same rate as the mid market segment doesn't mean that luxury car buyers are buying mid market cars instead of luxury cars. It means...that all segments are growing, its just mid market segments are growing more. It could mean many other things, that luxury car owners are keeping their cars longer, that there aren't as many new luxury car models as new mid market car models out in 2011 vs 2010 that would skew the data.

For instance, Honda shows a fairly big decline in sales from 2010 to 2011, using your logic that means Honda buyers must be buying Mercedes...since their numbers are up. It doesn't mean that at all.

You are also assuming that a carmaker would view flat sales from 2010 to 2011 as a bad thing.

The data you are looking for is not included in this link you've shown us.

Exactly.

I have a suspicion that there may be a perceived problem with luxury car sales, but only on a regional or area by area basis, similar to housing. If people are seeing slow to no traffic in luxury car showrooms/lots, it is extremely scattered and is not being reported widely in the press. As we all know, Luxury autos are expensive, and right now money to lend is as cheap as it has been sense the 1950's. In that one respect, it is a strong market for luxury car sales. (I've noticed an absence of end of year close out promos this fall..might be a good sign that the manufacturers aren't needing to give away a lot to move the merchandise.)