Bmw Killer?

[pj8708]

We're not in Kansas anymore. As we talked before on this board, the players on the playing fields are changing rapidly. This article spells out the exceptional success of Hyundai in busting into the luxury market, and now, moving further up into the $60k price range and selling out their inventory of those vehicles.

Has anyone driven the new Equus??

or Genesis?

http://autos.aol.com/article/hyundai-kia-luxury-cars/?icid=main%7Chtmlws-main-w%7Cdl7%7Csec1_lnk3%7C208759

[LEXIRX330]

Has anyone driven the new Equus??

or Genesis?

Everytime I see a Genesis I have to do a double take. Don't think that I will get one quite yet... ;)

[smooth1]

Remember that popularity is only a measure of being popular. Just because things become popular doesn't mean they are better or any good at all for that matter.

I'm reminded of the 70's- 80's when home stereos started becoming "popular". Before the Japanese electronics invasion, hi-fi stereos were purely a luxury item. Names like Macintosch, Phillips, Marantz, and a few others pretty much blazed the trail for reproducing sound as acquriately and completely as technology would allow. They put in years and who knows how much money into the pursuit of perfect sound reproduction. I've heard a tube amplifier made by Carver that's about 30 years old on a set of Paradigm Espirit speakers at decibel levels you can't scream to each other over even if your standing next to each other, and the sound is so amazingly real, there is no way possible, that if you were blind folded you could tell the difference between live or recorded. In fact, as I stood there and closed my eyes, my ears could easliy create a picture in my head of the exact location of each instrument. The drums sounded as if they were in the rear, the guitar was on the left side and the singer was out in front. I could in my mind, look across the stage and "hear/see" the stacks of amplifiers and speakers thumpin it out. You could "feel" the spaciousness of the stage. Just like when I was actually at the concert. Man, was I amazed, and convinced! So along comes the Japanese transistor radio......made by of course....Sony. Changed everything. Pioneer, JVC, Kenwood, oh man the list goes on, and doesn't everyone know these names? Suddenly, you could go to the store, like Circuit City, or Best Buy, and for about 500 or 600 bucks walk out with a 100 watt per channel amplifier, a double cassette deck, remember all the bouncing and flashing light EQ's?, a turntable on the top, a beautiful wood or glass multi shelf stand, and two huge speakers that seemed to sound pretty good. And at that time, a thousand dollars would barely buy the speakers alone from the high end "audiophile" grade stereos. What the heck was going on? Either the audiophiles were just crazy over marking up thier stuff, or the Japanese stereo was just the deals of the century! So fast forward to now. And look around. High end audiophile stereo companies are still here making high end stereos. But the "popular" thing now has become Mp3 players and micro systems. No more big rack stereo's being made by all these huge electronics names anymore. And still about 5 or 600 bucks.Interesting.

So, my take is, For people who listen to music while vacuuming, or working in the garage, and while cooking dinner, "middle of the road" stuff is more than they will ever really need anyway, so the JVC mini rack is more than enough sound. But for the passionate, and much more dedicated listener, which whom there will always be, a Mark Levinson complete home sound system is the ultimate goal and still a bargain!! It's never going to change. I wonder what the name of the next car company to be "new challengers of" what ever segment will be next?

[pj8708]

Remember that popularity is only a measure of being popular. Just because things become popular doesn't mean they are better or any good at all for that matter.

I'm reminded of the 70's- 80's when home stereos started becoming "popular". Before the Japanese electronics invasion, hi-fi stereos were purely a luxury item. Names like Macintosch, Phillips, Marantz, and a few others pretty much blazed the trail for reproducing sound as acquriately and completely as technology would allow. They put in years and who knows how much money into the pursuit of perfect sound reproduction. I've heard a tube amplifier made by Carver that's about 30 years old on a set of Paradigm Espirit speakers at decibel levels you can't scream to each other over even if your standing next to each other, and the sound is so amazingly real, there is no way possible, that if you were blind folded you could tell the difference between live or recorded. In fact, as I stood there and closed my eyes, my ears could easliy create a picture in my head of the exact location of each instrument. The drums sounded as if they were in the rear, the guitar was on the left side and the singer was out in front. I could in my mind, look across the stage and "hear/see" the stacks of amplifiers and speakers thumpin it out. You could "feel" the spaciousness of the stage. Just like when I was actually at the concert. Man, was I amazed, and convinced! So along comes the Japanese transistor radio......made by of course....Sony. Changed everything. Pioneer, JVC, Kenwood, oh man the list goes on, and doesn't everyone know these names? Suddenly, you could go to the store, like Circuit City, or Best Buy, and for about 500 or 600 bucks walk out with a 100 watt per channel amplifier, a double cassette deck, remember all the bouncing and flashing light EQ's?, a turntable on the top, a beautiful wood or glass multi shelf stand, and two huge speakers that seemed to sound pretty good. And at that time, a thousand dollars would barely buy the speakers alone from the high end "audiophile" grade stereos. What the heck was going on? Either the audiophiles were just crazy over marking up thier stuff, or the Japanese stereo was just the deals of the century! So fast forward to now. And look around. High end audiophile stereo companies are still here making high end stereos. But the "popular" thing now has become Mp3 players and micro systems. No more big rack stereo's being made by all these huge electronics names anymore. And still about 5 or 600 bucks.Interesting.

So, my take is, For people who listen to music while vacuuming, or working in the garage, and while cooking dinner, "middle of the road" stuff is more than they will ever really need anyway, so the JVC mini rack is more than enough sound. But for the passionate, and much more dedicated listener, which whom there will always be, a Mark Levinson complete home sound system is the ultimate goal and still a bargain!! It's never going to change. I wonder what the name of the next car company to be "new challengers of" what ever segment will be next?

Your reasoning begs the question that if something is no good, why does it become popular? Is Madison Ave. advertising that good, that it can fool all of the people all of the time? I give my fellow consumers a little credit for being smarter than you do. No offense.

[smooth1]

Remember that popularity is only a measure of being popular. Just because things become popular doesn't mean they are better or any good at all for that matter.

I'm reminded of the 70's- 80's when home stereos started becoming "popular". Before the Japanese electronics invasion, hi-fi stereos were purely a luxury item. Names like Macintosch, Phillips, Marantz, and a few others pretty much blazed the trail for reproducing sound as acquriately and completely as technology would allow. They put in years and who knows how much money into the pursuit of perfect sound reproduction. I've heard a tube amplifier made by Carver that's about 30 years old on a set of Paradigm Espirit speakers at decibel levels you can't scream to each other over even if your standing next to each other, and the sound is so amazingly real, there is no way possible, that if you were blind folded you could tell the difference between live or recorded. In fact, as I stood there and closed my eyes, my ears could easliy create a picture in my head of the exact location of each instrument. The drums sounded as if they were in the rear, the guitar was on the left side and the singer was out in front. I could in my mind, look across the stage and "hear/see" the stacks of amplifiers and speakers thumpin it out. You could "feel" the spaciousness of the stage. Just like when I was actually at the concert. Man, was I amazed, and convinced! So along comes the Japanese transistor radio......made by of course....Sony. Changed everything. Pioneer, JVC, Kenwood, oh man the list goes on, and doesn't everyone know these names? Suddenly, you could go to the store, like Circuit City, or Best Buy, and for about 500 or 600 bucks walk out with a 100 watt per channel amplifier, a double cassette deck, remember all the bouncing and flashing light EQ's?, a turntable on the top, a beautiful wood or glass multi shelf stand, and two huge speakers that seemed to sound pretty good. And at that time, a thousand dollars would barely buy the speakers alone from the high end "audiophile" grade stereos. What the heck was going on? Either the audiophiles were just crazy over marking up thier stuff, or the Japanese stereo was just the deals of the century! So fast forward to now. And look around. High end audiophile stereo companies are still here making high end stereos. But the "popular" thing now has become Mp3 players and micro systems. No more big rack stereo's being made by all these huge electronics names anymore. And still about 5 or 600 bucks.Interesting.

So, my take is, For people who listen to music while vacuuming, or working in the garage, and while cooking dinner, "middle of the road" stuff is more than they will ever really need anyway, so the JVC mini rack is more than enough sound. But for the passionate, and much more dedicated listener, which whom there will always be, a Mark Levinson complete home sound system is the ultimate goal and still a bargain!! It's never going to change. I wonder what the name of the next car company to be "new challengers of" what ever segment will be next?

Your reasoning begs the question that if something is no good, why does it become popular? Is Madison Ave. advertising that good, that it can fool all of the people all of the time? I give my fellow consumers a little credit for being smarter than you do. No offense.

Well, as for consumers smarts........that would be an entirely different discussion, but I agree, I don't think the "mass consumer group" as a whole is a very smart bunch at all. But my point here was much more specific. Let's first remove any bias we may have about certian car makers for a moment, and just look at the overall history and evolution. What has really happened here is that the top car makers have become so good at making cars, that 60-75% as good is still more than most people would ever need anyway now. Look at the rocket ships MB and BMW are making! 550 hp V8 stock!!!!!!! the Lexus IS-F. The Nissan GTR. Those were super car numbers just 10 years ago. I remember when a 350 hp 350 cid engine was the marvel of all the car shows and no one was producing anything like what we are seeing today. Take a 1995 BMW M3. Off the showroom floor it produced 195 hp. today, the same car produces 420 hp. And look at all the new toys that cars come with today...Nav, keyless, 800 watt super stereo systems, automatic just about everything. So if a stout businessman decided to start a new car company, do you actually try to compete???? or just make a car that rides smooth, maybe not as state of the art, and instead of pushing the limits of technology and looking for ways to make it better, they use "other" methods and materials, and instead of 400 + hp, let's use a 300 hp engine. You see. the car itself is engineered to be the "middle of the road", or "good enough". So of course it's going to be cheaper. They didn't have to pay for all the R&D it took to get this good.

I'm not for or against any one in the car industry. I understand that each car maker has a different set of goals and how they achieve those is according to thier philosophy. Whatever works. But just because your popular doesn't mean your the best, and the "best" can mean alot of different things to alot of different people. Everyone has a right to their point of view on this. I just don't like the idea that the car I am driving is engineered to be "middle of the pack." and then justify it with a lower price tag.

[cduluk]

Hyundai has proved they can make a pretty damn good car for an even better price. If they only changed the name...

If the Lexus lineup had a Toyota badge, my guess is that they would be having the same problem. It might be difficult for an LS owner to say they drive a car from the same manufacturer who makes the Tercel. I mean, they really "do", but it's the name that makes the difference when they tell their friends.

It must also be hard for the driver of the Equus or Genesis to say they drive a car from the same manufacturer who makes the Sonata... There's really no shame in buying one (i mean heck, you're getting a lot of bang for the buck), it's just that they don't get the same prestige that comes with a name like Lexus, BMW, Mercedes and such... It's sad, but it's just the way it is.

[RX350lover]

We're not in Kansas anymore. As we talked before on this board, the players on the playing fields are changing rapidly. This article spells out the exceptional success of Hyundai in busting into the luxury market, and now, moving further up into the $60k price range and selling out their inventory of those vehicles.

Has anyone driven the new Equus??

or Genesis?

http://autos.aol.com/article/hyundai-kia-luxury-cars/?icid=main%7Chtmlws-main-w%7Cdl7%7Csec1_lnk3%7C208759

I did test drive the Genesis/Equus. I consider a car to be only half of the equation. To me, the service at the dealer as well as the reliability is the other half. Hyundai has built a 'great' car, though some have some serious issues. But the main factor why I would never buy a Genesis/Equus is that you have to take it to a Hyundai dealer. The attitude, approach and treatment you will get at a Hyundai dealer could be a very rude awakening to anyone who is used to the Lexus service department. Let me be blunt, Lexus dealers have class, Hyundai dealers have 'crass'.

The car is very quiet but some materials are, in my opinion, of lower quality. One thing really remarkable is the power you get out of the V6 (base engine). It is fantastic.

[SW03ES]

I really don't see what materials in a Genesis are of lower quality than an RX350. Than an LS...sure, but when compared to similarly priced Lexus vehicles like the ES, RX, etc...if anything the materials in the Genesis are of better quality...

I don't know if they do the same for the Genesis, but for the Equuus they will pickup and dropoff the car, even for the purchase they will come to the customer so they don't have to go to the dealer.

[RX350lover]

I really don't see what materials in a Genesis are of lower quality than an RX350. Than an LS...sure, but when compared to similarly priced Lexus vehicles like the ES, RX, etc...if anything the materials in the Genesis are of better quality...

I don't know if they do the same for the Genesis, but for the Equuus they will pickup and dropoff the car, even for the purchase they will come to the customer so they don't have to go to the dealer.

Beige leather turned blueish because driver was sitting on it with brand new jeans. The rear seat can be folded, but is poorly built as I was able to bend it at the top corners.

Only the Equus get the special treatment. Hyundai built a wonderful car. Too bad Hyundai didn't follow the example of Toyota and built the proper support for a car that is supposed to be upscale.

[SW03ES]

Beige leather turned blueish because driver was sitting on it with brand new jeans.

Read the forums here...that is a HUGE complaint about Lexus beige leather. Theres a whole thread about it in the 2010 RX forum...as well as in almost every other specific forum.

I thought the leather in the Genesis was nicer than the leather in my ES...

The rear seat can be folded, but is poorly built as I was able to bend it at the top corners.

Rear seat in Lexus sedans doesn't even fold!

Even if these things were unique to the Genesis, do they outweigh the massive feature and size benefit it has over its competitors, or the fact that its RWD with an available V8? Hardly.

Too bad Hyundai didn't follow the example of Toyota and built the proper support for a car that is supposed to be upscale.

This I agree with. I'd almost certainly be driving one now if they had...

[pj8708]

I really don't see what materials in a Genesis are of lower quality than an RX350. Than an LS...sure, but when compared to similarly priced Lexus vehicles like the ES, RX, etc...if anything the materials in the Genesis are of better quality...

I don't know if they do the same for the Genesis, but for the Equuus they will pickup and dropoff the car, even for the purchase they will come to the customer so they don't have to go to the dealer.

Beige leather turned blueish because driver was sitting on it with brand new jeans. The rear seat can be folded, but is poorly built as I was able to bend it at the top corners.

Only the Equus get the special treatment. Hyundai built a wonderful car. Too bad Hyundai didn't follow the example of Toyota and built the proper support for a car that is supposed to be upscale.

Unfortunately, the dye transfer from jeans and other heavily dyed fabrics is also a problem with Lexus. Both my 05' ES and my 10" ES have shown a proclivity for this problem. The detailer's are all aware of it and say it is an issue for many manufacturer's leather seats. Sometimes it can be cleaned off if the stain is worked frequently to keep the dye from building up over time.

Paul

[nc211]

My problem with Hyundai, is the clear lack of creativity in their designs. They just seem to say "ok, let's build a big luxury sedan. Bill, you go rent a MB, Frank you go get the Lexus, and I'll go get a Jag, and we'll all meet at the design studio. We'll make the front look like the MB, the sides look like the Lexus, and rear like the Jag, and we'll build it in Korea so we can sell it for half price and still make money".

I don't have a problem with them building it in Korea. You don't sell something unless you want to make a profit. I drive a car that was built in Mexico. But, I don't like the fact that they "and KIA...which by the way, stands for Killed In Accident" simply seem to just rip-off design cues from others who spent the money to design a fresh car, and bet big that it would sell.

Personally, I think most of the Asian cars are starting to "blend" together too much. Acura had a unique design with the previous TL, but now, it looks like a Transformer doll barfed on a Buick. The Camry is a solid car, so much so that I would be hard pressed to spend the extra premium for a Lexus vs a fully loaded Camry (used of course, I'm too cheap to buy new ;-). Nissan..they lost me in 2004 with the Maxima, and haven't grabbed me since. Infinity, I flirted with the G35 sedan once, and only once. Lexus though, with the late model LS430, has always had me a "hello". That, is my favorite Lexus car. But, that's about it for me. Although, my latest fasination for smaller pocket-rockets has my eye caught by this new CT they've got. Hubba Hubba, I like the interior dash!

This is one of the main reasons why I've become a German fan, specifically VW/Audi. I think their designs are unique and fresh, and not very expensive to buy (VW), or own (warranty). Plus, they're simply a riot to drive and put together a lot better than I believe they're given credit for, so long as you don't go "tweaking" them, and realize they're not a Toyota and you need to maintain them as instructed in the manual. My wife, who made fun of me for buying the GTI initially, has now asked me about the Jetta Tdi sportwagons as a possible 3rd car when the 4runner gets paid off and bumped to the family "back-up". She simply loves driving our VW.

To be honest, I've come to the conclusion that with internet boards such as this one, any car is "managable" to own in a relatively cheap format. About the only car maker that I'm still scared of would be Land Rover. My wife and I simply love the Discovery SUV, and would love to try one, but not quite there yet in trusting it. An example of this is in the 2.0t engine so widely used in VW and Audi. When you hear folks talk about their engine being ruined by a failed part, it's usually a $40 part that literally takes a screw driver, a small wrench, and 20 minutes to replace every 45k miles or so, on some of the cars. It's called a cam-follower in the high-pressure fuel pump. Some wear out, especially on those who've "tweaked" their engines with chips and such (200hp bumped to 260hp). 260hp from a 2.0 liter turbo 4banger, and you don't think you'll break something? Get real. Personally, I think the Passat sedan is one of the sexiest sedans on the road for under $20k. I know RXNC would agree, with his experiences with his used Jag.

Buyer demographics aside, I'm of the personal opinion that Hyundai is missing a winning design that is uniquely theirs, that identifies them as a car "designer" over a car "maker". Once they've done that succesfully, then they can head into the higher altitude price-points. But, again, that's being said with buyer demographic (and budgets) aside. Dollars speak louder than opinions!

[SW03ES]

My problem with Hyundai, is the clear lack of creativity in their designs. They just seem to say "ok, let's build a big luxury sedan. Bill, you go rent a MB, Frank you go get the Lexus, and I'll go get a Jag, and we'll all meet at the design studio. We'll make the front look like the MB, the sides look like the Lexus, and rear like the Jag, and we'll build it in Korea so we can sell it for half price and still make money".

Thats EXACTLY how Lexus got started, and they continued doing that for YEARS! Just now are we starting to see a cohesive Lexus styling theme.

Hyundai's not trying to innovate, they're trying to build something similar looking...of better quality...for less money. That's EXACTLY what Lexus did with the LS in 1990.

[nc211]

Oh, I agree Lexus came on the scene in similiar fashion. But, they first showed up with a similiar competitor and eventually evolved away from it, except the LS400 and the MB. They came out of the gate day one like that. Hyundai has been around since the 80's (if memory serves correct). I don't really see the GS series ever trying to mimic others, just competing. Same with the IS and ES. To me, they've all had their "own" design identities that have set them apart from others. If anything though, lately I think they've all gotten a little to close to eachother within the same brand. I kind of see the sedans as "small. medium, large" now. I know they're all entirely different cars throughout, but there's just enough similiarity to blur that line, in my own eyes. I think there are enough styling differences in any Lexus car, either the 90' LS or current, that unmistakenly have always said "Lexus". When I see a Hyundai Genesis coming towards me, I honestly think it's a MB at first. I just see so many other existing cars wooven into the Hyundai design, that it leaves me with a feeling of it being a "knock off". But, I know it's not! It's their version of the 90' LS400...similar in many ways, but different.

We'll see where they evolve to now though. Since they've come through design phase 1, I'm curious to see what direction they take in the future.

[cduluk]

I actually remember a specific Kia commercial, where they revealed certain angles of the car while the narrator said things like, "it's not a Jaguar, it's not a Mercedes, it's a Kia..."

Kia Amanti. Price new: $26,000-$29,000

Jaguar S-Type. Price new: $49,000-$62,000

Mercedes E-class. Price new: $47,000-$60,000

I mean, COME ON!

[smooth1]

I haven't liked GM very much lately, and I think Ford is the best America has to offer right now, I think I want to wait a few more years to see what Fiat is going to really do with Dodge/Chrysler, could be good, maybe......I'm not holding my breathe....Honda/Aqura looks goofy and wedgey. I don't know. They got a techy look thing going but still haven't really figured it out yet. Toyota/Lexus I think is going back into another identity crisis. The GS is due for a revamp, the LS is getting beat now, What's next for the IS, and the SUV's are out of step with everything else it seems, and the only thing they have again is the Corolla, Camary, and 4Runner. Nissan just released the awsome rocket GTR, and everything else get's lumped into everything else for them. They always seem to me like an "Asian Cadillac" impression. LOL!! Which brings me to Cadillac. Man I hope they just keep going. They are on the right track, but I think they need a couple more model evolutions to get there, and they need to focus more on the driver interaction and feel. I think of Hyundai/Kia like MDF. It has it's uses but you would never make your fine furniture out of it. No matter how good the laminate. Is Suzuki still making cars???? well, I think that question answers what's going on over there right now anyway. I think Volkswagon/Audi is hot right now. There cars "feel" so much better in so many ways it's not even funny right now. Merc Benz I think just reclaimed the #1 spot. The new E550 with the pano roof, built in drivers massage and active positioning monitor, along with the new interior design........and the S550......these are the top of the ring right now. BMW is just a tick or two behind in the 5 series to the E class, but the 3 series is way better than the MB 3 series, and I have been a very long time Volvo fan and I have to say their new car line up is looking much nicer, and the suspension system component upgrades I've been seeing are going to go along way to helping Volvo get back some market share. The new S60 is shocking to hear it's a Volvo.

I wish american made cars could really come back. Ford needs to start a new luxury car line that competes with MB and BMW. And beats them! We need a champion again. Back in the 60's the Mustangs and Camaro's were kicking everyone butt. BMW's and MB's were laughed at...but not now. Not any more, atleast not by anyone still driving one of those. We stood still, and they kept advancing and evolving. I even drive a MB now! LOL!!!

[cduluk]

Ford does have a luxury line, two actually- Lincoln and Mercury...

[RX350lover]

Hyundai is doing exactly what Toyota did when they introduced the Lexus LS 400. They brought a good car to the market and under priced it. When the LS400 came out, I think it sold for $30K. But the price has been creeping up every year since. Once established, the price is jacked up. I have no problem with that. M-B and BMW needed a reality check and the Lexus LS400 provided that. Again, the same thing has happened; Hyundai is providing a reality check to Lexus, Benz and BMW.

Unfortunately, as with any brand new model, there are issues and unfortunately, it is my opinion that the Hyundai dealers are not fully prepared/equipped to deal with an upscale car, as well as with a more sophisticated clientele. It is not just about money and the car, it is also about how much time (and aggravation) will you spend at the dealer. Often, the more money you have, the less time you have. IOW, it is not just about the car itself, but the whole equation of owning a vehicle and finding the right balance.

[SW03ES]

When I see a Hyundai Genesis coming towards me, I honestly think it's a MB at first.

Thats the goal!

[smooth1]

Ford does have a luxury line, two actually- Lincoln and Mercury...

I said a luxury line that competes with and beats MB and BMW. I don't think Lincoln-Mercury are even close! Do you?

[cduluk]

Ford does have a luxury line, two actually- Lincoln and Mercury...

I said a luxury line that competes with and beats MB and BMW. I don't think Lincoln-Mercury are even close! Do you?

Not even a LITTLE! :P I think that was Ford's goal though, but it never happened...

Ford did well with the Aston Martin, but it's not really in competition with, well, anything. They tried with Range Rover, maybe Volvo, but i guess their best success was Jaguar.

[smooth1]

Hyundai is doing exactly what Toyota did when they introduced the Lexus LS 400. They brought a good car to the market and under priced it. When the LS400 came out, I think it sold for $30K. But the price has been creeping up every year since. Once established, the price is jacked up. I have no problem with that. M-B and BMW needed a reality check and the Lexus LS400 provided that. Again, the same thing has happened; Hyundai is providing a reality check to Lexus, Benz and BMW.

Unfortunately, as with any brand new model, there are issues and unfortunately, it is my opinion that the Hyundai dealers are not fully prepared/equipped to deal with an upscale car, as well as with a more sophisticated clientele. It is not just about money and the car, it is also about how much time (and aggravation) will you spend at the dealer. Often, the more money you have, the less time you have. IOW, it is not just about the car itself, but the whole equation of owning a vehicle and finding the right balance.

When Lexus brought over the LS400, it already had a 10 year evolution and was already hailed as one of the best built cars around the world. Lexus used what they already built to prove in america they can build cars. And by the way, on the Hyundai forums is where your going to learn the truth about them. Just like here. I cruise the forums there quite a bit. I see:

"like a paint chip that fell off the rear quarter panel (with no apparent cause), I closed the door and watched it fall off."

"highway-speed balance that they just couldn't get quite right, and the dreaded clunky suspension that others have addressed repeatedly with their dealers, at the cost of much time & energy, and to no avail. Hyundai had revised the shock absorber three times and nothing helped."

"the finish on all the cars' wheels was staining a little around the edges, which was unsightly. All of that was (barely) within tolerance for a car at this price point and again, with the excellent feature content. Then, almost at the same time, both of our cars developed the double-dreaded dashboard airbag seam crack. Both were replaced under warranty - one required follow-up work because the dashboard was not re-assembled correctly - with exactly the same part as the outgoing part. "

"Many Genesis sedans in Korea suddenly stops(engine dies) and won't accelerate fast enough, and finally Hyundai admitted that ECU might be bad. Hyundai said it's NOT a serious problem since it can be fixed simply by replacing ECUs. Korean government will do investigation and release the result at the end of this year to decide whether Hyundai should recall Genesis or not. Don't buy Genesis now if you are planning on buying one in the future. Buy it after this issue is resolved. Sorry to say this, but Hyundai is a shady company and I don't trust their products. Good luck."

These are the most common issues I see, among a few others. So, it's like I keep saying......If all car companies have some issues with their cars, and all your really doing is trading problems, then I would think it's way better to stay with what you know, and the car companies that prove over and over again they want your business, and are willing to go the extra lengths it takes to keep you coming back. Maybe their cars a bit more, but in the long run, the trade offs aren't worth it to me. The Hyundai family values and direction matter to me. I just don't see that they have any. Working with Hyundai is almost like working with a big bank anymore. They advertise low cost junk and free to get you in the door. Then when you walk out, how much did you really save after owning the car? was it really worth it?

[nc211]

Well....they could be worse...say....Government Motors 2.0....where one of the new Tax Payer Bailout "options" is a nifty little trick that results in the friggin' steering wheel falling off as you're driving down the highway at 70mph! "Dang it, I just can't get enough leg room in this fancy new Cruze"..."here, Bill, just turn the steering wheel to the left and it'll come off...there, see, lots of leg room now!"

Unbelievable. I assume you guys have seen this in the news? A funky computer is one thing..an abs sensor acting up is bad...a susposed stuck gas peddle is really bad.....BUT the friggin' steering wheel falling off in your hands? That takes the cake!! Way to go, GM! Only you could make Yugo look like a Honda....Good to see you spent that bailout money on some new manuals on how to build a car! Geezzzz

I need a drink...and it's only 9:45 in the morning!

[SW03ES]

Smooth...I also am a member over at the Genesis forums and read them. Less now that I've got my ES350, but I read quite extensively when I was looking at the Genesis. Those quotes are honestly out of context, and you could pull similar quotes from here and CL just as easily. Overall the members there are very happy with their Genesis sedans...as the members here and at CL are with their Lexus vehicles.

How can you say with a straight face that Hyundai values quality more than Toyota with all the evidence we've found over the last couple years that Toyota basically doesn't really care all that much either.

[smooth1]

Smooth...I also am a member over at the Genesis forums and read them. Less now that I've got my ES350, but I read quite extensively when I was looking at the Genesis. Those quotes are honestly out of context, and you could pull similar quotes from here and CL just as easily. Overall the members there are very happy with their Genesis sedans...as the members here and at CL are with their Lexus vehicles.

How can you say with a straight face that Hyundai values quality more than Toyota with all the evidence we've found over the last couple years that Toyota basically doesn't really care all that much either.

I wasn't trying to highlight or point to "they have bigger problems than anyone else." I was just pulling the most common issues I see to make the point that the grass isn't any greener over there. Your really just exchanging the problems your going to have.

How can you say with a straight face that Hyundai values quality more than Toyota with all the evidence we've found over the last couple years that Toyota basically doesn't really care all that much either

I can't and don't. My last purchase was a Mercedes Benz 6 months before the stuck accelerator issue, and then I bought the wife a Volkswagen Jetta just last year. Both European mfgrs. I thought the pendulum was swinging back to them and jumped on board this time. I still have the IS 350. And I've had no issues with any of our cars. What I think is Toyota got greedy and wanted the #1 spot,,,and it may have become no matter what, and at all costs..the general formula for destruction. And I see Hyundai much the same way.