Electronic Throttle Control

[tim john]

CNN has a report stating no fault in the electronic throttle control system on Toyota and Lexus vehicles.

[The G Man]

CNN has a report stating no fault in the electronic throttle control system on Toyota and Lexus vehicles.

If you mean this article, it doesnt mean much since it is only a preliminary report and it is from a consulting firm hired by Toyota.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/02/13/toyota.re...?iref=allsearch

[cduluk]

CNN has a report stating no fault in the electronic throttle control system on Toyota and Lexus vehicles.

Toyota can't even find the problem with it, you think someone else is?

It's like dealing with a computer that glitches "every once and a while". Unless an engineer is IN a car WHILE it's failing having every electrical component hooked up to diagnostics... they'll never find where the glitch is.

[The G Man]

CNN has a report stating no fault in the electronic throttle control system on Toyota and Lexus vehicles.

Toyota can't even find the problem with it, you think someone else is?

It's like dealing with a computer that glitches "every once and a while". Unless an engineer is IN a car WHILE it's failing having every electrical component hooked up to diagnostics... they'll never find where the glitch is.

Exactly, if the glitches only happens under a rare condition or it only happens to 1 car in a million and on that 1 in a million car, it only happens once every 5 years, how are these Toyota hired engineers going to find it? Their chances are as good as hitting the lottery.

[cduluk]

Oh trust me, somewhere in the world Toyota's got 200+ cars running on a dyno 24/7 with everything hooked up hoping they can duplicate the problem...

If not, they'll just start fresh. Build a new ECU that they'll just replace with all of the cars that have the issue.

[The G Man]

Oh trust me, somewhere in the world Toyota's got 200+ cars running on a dyno 24/7 with everything hooked up hoping they can duplicate the problem...

If not, they'll just start fresh. Build a new ECU that they'll just replace with all of the cars that have the issue.

Problems dont always shows up in a lab condition, thats why there is nothing better than real world testing.

The ECU might not be the problem, it can be the programing or maybe the sensors.

[cduluk]

I doubt this problem is beng caused by faulty sensors/switches. The only switch that "could" be causing this is the gas pedal. All it is, is a sort of potentiometer that sends a changing signal to the computer based on how much it's being depressed-sort of like a dimmer switch for a light, or an auto-leveling switch for headlights...

The only way this type of mechanical switch could fail is if it gets "stuck" in one position or if the internal components break and cause things to touch that aren't supposed to. And when a switch breaks, it breaks. It cannot repair itself.

And out of all the cars that have had this runaway problem, all of the switches were fine, and users stated that the pedal wasn't "stuck" itself, but that it just wasn't responsive no matter how much it was moved.

The only component left is the computer itself or any of the motors/devices after the computer. But none of those devices seemed to be damaged on any of the cars with the problem, and it's just not likely that they'd all fail the same way (wide open throttle). So the computer is the only device left...

It's like when your computer freezes. You can move the mouse, press Ctrl+alt+delete, nothing will happen. Doesn't mean the mouse or keyboard is broken, it's just that the computer is in a state where it isn't accepting input to change the output (screen).

Just my educated guess.

[The G Man]

I doubt this problem is beng caused by faulty sensors/switches. The only switch that "could" be causing this is the gas pedal. All it is, is a sort of potentiometer that sends a changing signal to the computer based on how much it's being depressed-sort of like a dimmer switch for a light, or an auto-leveling switch for headlights...

The only way this type of mechanical switch could fail is if it gets "stuck" in one position or if the internal components break and cause things to touch that aren't supposed to. And when a switch breaks, it breaks. It cannot repair itself.

And out of all the cars that have had this runaway problem, all of the switches were fine, and users stated that the pedal wasn't "stuck" itself, but that it just wasn't responsive no matter how much it was moved.

The only component left is the computer itself or any of the motors/devices after the computer. But none of those devices seemed to be damaged on any of the cars with the problem, and it's just not likely that they'd all fail the same way (wide open throttle). So the computer is the only device left...

It's like when your computer freezes. You can move the mouse, press Ctrl+alt+delete, nothing will happen. Doesn't mean the mouse or keyboard is broken, it's just that the computer is in a state where it isn't accepting input to change the output (screen).

Just my educated guess.

Modern day gas pedals use a Hall effect switch, a magnetic field determines the position of the gas pedal. If that magnet field is interfere with, it can cause a run away situation, but that senerio is very unlikely.

When you step on the gas pedal, that signal doesnt go to the throttle body directly. the pedal will open up a valve to lwt more air in, the mass flow sensor senses more air and sents a signal to the computer to increase gas injected into the combusion chamber. There are many sensors in this chain, but its a proven system that have work reliably for years. Also, some car's stability system and traction control is connected to the throttle computer, and lastly, dont for the cruise control :)

[The G Man]

Seems like most Toyota and Lexus dealers are mostly done with their warranty phase and they are starting to go back to the sales mode. On a side note, the Feds have received 10 complaints so far about sudden acceleration on Toyota and Lexus that have already had the recalls done, the Feds are investigating.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/03/03/autos/Toyo...ndex.htm?hpt=T2

[cduluk]

Seems like most Toyota and Lexus dealers are mostly done with their warranty phase and they are starting to go back to the sales mode. On a side note, the Feds have received 10 complaints so far about sudden acceleration on Toyota and Lexus that have already had the recalls done, the Feds are investigating.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/03/03/autos/Toyo...ndex.htm?hpt=T2

I knew this day was coming, just didn't think it would happen this soon :o

10 is still too small a number though...

[eatingupblacktop]

It would be interesting to know whether these failures ocurred only after the repairs were done and not before. If so, it would indicate that the repairs are not the solution to the problem. Or, could it mean the repairs actually caused the failures. Either scenario does not bode well for Toyota.

[cduluk]

Changing out the pedals with the other brand isn't going to solve anything, as they both work the same way and send the same signals to the computer... It's the computer itself that's the issue.

More of these complaints will come even on cars with the different pedals, it's just a matter of time before Toyota's put on the spot again.

Toyota needs an ECU fix asap.

[The G Man]

I knew this day was coming, just didn't think it would happen this soon :o

10 is still too small a number though...

The latest news report had the complaints up tp 20 now.

One thing I would not rule out is that these people are trying to cash in on the up coming class action suits. This is the good old USA after all :) Either way, this is not a good place for Toyota to be in right now. It is a good thing that Toyota have deep pockets. After all this, I would say their rainy day fund will be pretty much gone.

[blake918]

Changing out the pedals with the other brand isn't going to solve anything, as they both work the same way and send the same signals to the computer... It's the computer itself that's the issue.

More of these complaints will come even on cars with the different pedals, it's just a matter of time before Toyota's put on the spot again.

Toyota needs an ECU fix asap.

Couldn't agree more. This has intermittent ECU problem written all over it to me, and the pedals/mats is just their proactive move to appease people until they figure this out. Have yall seen the way they cut the ends off the pedals. It looks horrible, and I'd never accept it in my car.

Are the shifters in these cars electronic too? I remember seeing a video from a Lexus driving event, and someone driving a RX put it in reverse while driving forward, and the car disregarded the shift to reverse. Can anyone confirm this?

[tim john]

good question about the shifting problems. my 04 es sometimes shifts goofy, low speeds,under 20-30m.p.h. very rare. still a great car.

[The G Man]

Couldn't agree more. This has intermittent ECU problem written all over it to me, and the pedals/mats is just their proactive move to appease people until they figure this out. Have yall seen the way they cut the ends off the pedals. It looks horrible, and I'd never accept it in my car.

Are the shifters in these cars electronic too? I remember seeing a video from a Lexus driving event, and someone driving a RX put it in reverse while driving forward, and the car disregarded the shift to reverse. Can anyone confirm this?

The newer smart transmissions link the gear shifter to the electronic control modules via electronic signals. This is what make it scary for me, the ECM controls everything. So even if you shift into neutral, the ECM might still lock you out. I would take the old fashion mechanical linked shifter any day of the week.

[eatingupblacktop]

Are the shifters in these cars electronic too? I remember seeing a video from a Lexus driving event, and someone driving a RX put it in reverse while driving forward, and the car disregarded the shift to reverse. Can anyone confirm this?

I've read the tranny prevents a shift to Park when in motion at speed. Could be similar lockout?

The newer smart transmissions link the gear shifter to the electronic control modules via electronic signals. This is what make it scary for me, the ECM controls everything. So even if you shift into neutral, the ECM might still lock you out. I would take the old fashion mechanical linked shifter any day of the week.

That's another reason I like my '91!

[The G Man]

A automotive professor have found a inherent design flaw with Toyota’s electronics that can cause a vehicle to experience unintended sudden acceleration. According to the professor, “The system is fallible, in fact, it’s got some really troubling design strategies that are employed by Toyota that appear to be outside the norm [of the auto industry]. And their system clearly has a design strategy that has a very slim margin of safety,” said Sean Kane, safety advocate from Safety Research and Strategies. Kane was responsible for first spotting the pattern of so-called “runaway Toyotas” from NHTSA complaints.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/report-toyota-...tion-video.html

[The G Man]

I just saw this on CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2010/0...ment.cnn?hpt=C2

Toyota have been hiding a TSB since 2002 that stated that there might be a sudden accelaration issue related to the electronics system.

Here is the timeline of Toyota's 1st drive by wire system and their 1st TSB for sudden accelaration soon after. It looks like they had problems with the DBW system from the very beginning.

http://www.safetyresearch.net/toyota-sudde...ation-timeline/

[timj]

Why didn't the NHTSA do anything about?

[tim john]

Why didn't the NHTSA do anything about it?

[The G Man]

Why didn't the NHTSA do anything about it?

Some thinks that is why NHTSA is so tough on Toyota now, NHTSA was caught in bed with Toyota. I am sure there was a lot deals and bribes going on under the table at that time. This is the reason Toyota is trying so hard to keep those office memos and email out of the court's hands. I am sure this type of things goes on in every big car companies.

[tim john]

Daimler paying 185 million in fines in bribing foreign officials, BAE 400 million, Siemens, 1.6 billion, the list goes on. Very sad.

Tim

[The G Man]

Daimler paying 185 million in fines in bribing foreign officials, BAE 400 million, Siemens, 1.6 billion, the list goes on. Very sad.

Tim

I don't think what Toyota did was any worst than what Daimler did, the only big difference is people dead as a result of Toyota's corruption.