Had An Accident - 1998 Ls400

[Steve Chambers]

I've been registered on LOC since 2005 and have enjoyed reading the forums and have gotten a lot of interesting and useful information from them. I have never posted until now, not having anything I thought of enough interest to post.

We've had three LS400's (a white 1991, totaled in an intersection collision, other driver at fault; a gold 1995, sold at 207k miles; and our current white with tan interior 1998. All were purchased used). A few weeks ago our 1998 suffered an unfortunate frontal collision with the car ahead (heavy traffic, less than 10 mph, totally my fault as driver) that deployed the two front airbags and front seat belts, and distorted the Instrument Panel (the dashboard as commonly described) on the passenger side when the airbag deployed. There was virtually no other visible damage (not even a scratch on the bumper!), other than under-the-hood tabs on the front bumper which I can remedy and am fine with. The insurance company totaled the car.

As a side comment, let me say that the airbag deployment "experience" was a little like you might imagine an I.E.D. in Iraq - noise, smoke and violence. Obviously not like an I.E.D. in terms of danger, but still a pretty startling experience.

I've looked for a 1998-2000 model replacement car, but haven't so far been able to find one fitting my criteria (must have a Nakamichi, no Nav, and color of white, gold, or dark green) at a price that makes sense. We have already "purchased" our car back from the insurance company at salvage value, so we now have the choice of either repairing the car for our use (replace the airbags, control module, seat belts and dash, and of course the car will have a salvage title), or selling the car as is. The car is cosmetically very nice, and I'm sure I can sell it for more than we paid the insurance company, if we choose to sell.

Has anyone out there pulled the dashboard out of an LS400, and can share their experience? As far as I can tell, getting to the passenger airbag and the control module requires dash, components, and center console removal. Also, I am not sure whether the left and right collision sensors (also in the interior front area) must be replaced. I have gotten conflicting information on that. If anyone has any info on this it would be helpful.

The seat belts seem relatively simple-I have already removed and reinstalled the driver side to extend the belt length for temporary use.

So, I'm also looking for the components to replace the restraint systems mentioned, used, from a 1998-2000 with Tan interior. Finding these items used is essential, as purchasing at new prices doesn't make financial sense. I tried to post on the "Buy-Sell" forum but I seem to be blocked (apparently because of my lack of posting in the 4 years I've been registered here.) If a moderator or anyone else can tell me how I might post on the Buy-Sell forum for these parts, that would be appreciated also.

Thanks (from Orange County, CA)

[1990LS400]

Bummer about the damage. The following website might help identify part numbers if you need any new ones and show how components fit together: http://www.toyodiy.com/parts/p_U_1998_LEXU...EAGKA_5501.html

You may not want to go that route but I see a new "instrument panel" on http://www.parts.com for $707.86. But that doesn't included air bags or the miscellaneous parts you will need.

IMO, salvage companies often don't sell at enough of a discount off new part prices. 50% off retail for a used part isn't enough off when compared getting a new part at 30% off list price from a discount new parts sellers.

[Steve Chambers]

Bummer about the damage. The following website might help identify part numbers if you need any new ones and show how components fit together: http://www.toyodiy.com/parts/p_U_1998_LEXU...EAGKA_5501.html

You may not want to go that route but I see a new "instrument panel" on http://www.parts.com for $707.86. But that doesn't included air bags or the miscellaneous parts you will need.

IMO, salvage companies often don't sell at enough of a discount off new part prices. 50% off retail for a used part isn't enough off when compared getting a new part at 30% off list price from a discount new parts sellers.

Thanks for the links. I did find the ToyotaDIY site recently. The part numbers are helpful in determining if other years (e.g. 1995-97) parts are compatible, that is, have the same part number. Airbags and seat belts are different between 1998-00 and 1995-97, even though the interiors are very similar.

I do have a Lexus manual so it would guide me pretty well in doing the replacement work. It's not always clear, however, exactly what parts must be removed to get to certain other parts.

I will be interested to see, when removing the instrument panel, if it can possible be straightened. Right after the accident, the IP just in front of the passenger airbag "door" on top of the dash was depressed downward. I was able to pull it out and up, and it looks fine now. The remaining deformation is above the airbag door, towards the windshield. It bulges upward about an inch at its most deformed point.

[RDM]

Dashboard removal is not that hard at all, I haven't done a '98-'00 but I've had my '92 out four times, as well as a couple SC400s and numerous other Toyota products.

The service manual is your best bet if you're unsure where to begin, but it's basically a process of removing screws/bolts as you find them, I've always worked on cars so the majority of the work I do I figure as I go without needing assistance. Everything is typically laid out straightforward though in a Japanese built car anyway.

I would add though if it was my car, I would put it back stock without the airbags at all. In the numerous salvage cars I've bought in the past and seeing friends and other people have collisions, the airbag always does more harm than good. Bruises, powder burns, not to mention the need to replace several thousand dollars worth of parts. If you don't plan on selling it there's no need to put the time and money into it unless *you* feel safer with them installed. In my own opinion I do not feel safe with airbags and remove them from every car I've owned since their introduction. Again though this is strictly my opinion based on my experiences. I'm sure someone will jump down my throat since this board is good for doing that, but it is an opinion only. There is no factual data behind that, just speaking my mind.

Salvage yards have free reign to choose prices, but a lot of them don't get the call for interior as much so they don't go for broke on what they charge. You may find prices anywhere from $100-500 for the dashboard, it's a process of tracking down leads and more importantly, going to the yard in person. No one is going to be willing to pull a dash for some joker over the phone, but if you show up in person, cash in hand, the motivation is there. I buy from salvage yards weekly in my line of work and knowing what you're buying and what it's worth to them is the key, no one wants to have their time wasted over trivial parts. Another thing to consider is buying through numerous yards, the one that will sell you everything you need will charge more as they know you need all of it, so it's all or nothing.

[landar]

I would add though if it was my car, I would put it back stock without the airbags at all. In the numerous salvage cars I've bought in the past and seeing friends and other people have collisions, the airbag always does more harm than good. Bruises, powder burns, not to mention the need to replace several thousand dollars worth of parts. If you don't plan on selling it there's no need to put the time and money into it unless *you* feel safer with them installed. In my own opinion I do not feel safe with airbags and remove them from every car I've owned since their introduction. Again though this is strictly my opinion based on my experiences. I'm sure someone will jump down my throat since this board is good for doing that, but it is an opinion only. There is no factual data behind that, just speaking my mind.

I agree about the air bags RDM. Biggest mandated waste of money in a vehicle. I can remember when air bags were first talked about in the 1980's. I thought they were joking. Sadly, no. I was in a head-on accident in 1999 while driving a 1993 Chrysler with airbags. The airbag went off in my face but the seatbelt/shoulder harness and my death grip on the steering wheel kept me from even touching the airbag. All it did was put a bunch of powder/smoke in my face and I found myself choking for air because of it. The Chrysler was totaled but thank goodness, I was not hurt(no thanks to the airbag BTW).

As with you, strictly my opinion. Same sentiment for "global warming" and a host of other subjects. Not for this board. ;)

[Steve Chambers]

Dashboard removal is not that hard at all, I haven't done a '98-'00 but I've had my '92 out four times, as well as a couple SC400s and numerous other Toyota products.

The service manual is your best bet if you're unsure where to begin, but it's basically a process of removing screws/bolts as you find them, I've always worked on cars so the majority of the work I do I figure as I go without needing assistance. Everything is typically laid out straightforward though in a Japanese built car anyway.

I would add though if it was my car, I would put it back stock without the airbags at all. In the numerous salvage cars I've bought in the past and seeing friends and other people have collisions, the airbag always does more harm than good. Bruises, powder burns, not to mention the need to replace several thousand dollars worth of parts. If you don't plan on selling it there's no need to put the time and money into it unless *you* feel safer with them installed. In my own opinion I do not feel safe with airbags and remove them from every car I've owned since their introduction. Again though this is strictly my opinion based on my experiences. I'm sure someone will jump down my throat since this board is good for doing that, but it is an opinion only. There is no factual data behind that, just speaking my mind.

Salvage yards have free reign to choose prices, but a lot of them don't get the call for interior as much so they don't go for broke on what they charge. You may find prices anywhere from $100-500 for the dashboard, it's a process of tracking down leads and more importantly, going to the yard in person. No one is going to be willing to pull a dash for some joker over the phone, but if you show up in person, cash in hand, the motivation is there. I buy from salvage yards weekly in my line of work and knowing what you're buying and what it's worth to them is the key, no one wants to have their time wasted over trivial parts. Another thing to consider is buying through numerous yards, the one that will sell you everything you need will charge more as they know you need all of it, so it's all or nothing.

Interesting thoughts on the airbags and their usefulness (or lack thereof.) My wife did sustain a bruise on the side of her head near her eye, caused by the airbag. She was looking slightly to the side when the accident happened. The seat belts with their instant tightening (they have an explosive in them) really held us in place. But this was a low speed accident.

The tips on buying from a salvage yard are good. As far as going in person, I may end up finding the parts out of state - they don't seem to be very plentiful.

[jcrome04]

Sorry to hear! Glad you're ok!

I was recently in an accident that made my insurance decide to total my LS.

Now I have an 06 Maxima and am loving every second of it B)

good luck in your search.

[SW03ES]

I will say...statistical data overwhelmingly supports airbags as a crucial component of vehicle safety. Thats just not even debatable...in a low speed collision they may seem dangerous or a hassle, but hit another car at 45 MPH and come back and tell me airbags are pointless...they're not.

You may think that a "death grip" on the wheel kept you immobile in a serious accident, but even at fairly low speeds it is just physically impossible for you to overcome the inertia with your own arms.

With that said sorry to hear about your accident...

[amcdonal86]

I would add though if it was my car, I would put it back stock without the airbags at all. In the numerous salvage cars I've bought in the past and seeing friends and other people have collisions, the airbag always does more harm than good. Bruises, powder burns, not to mention the need to replace several thousand dollars worth of parts. If you don't plan on selling it there's no need to put the time and money into it unless *you* feel safer with them installed. In my own opinion I do not feel safe with airbags and remove them from every car I've owned since their introduction. Again though this is strictly my opinion based on my experiences. I'm sure someone will jump down my throat since this board is good for doing that, but it is an opinion only. There is no factual data behind that, just speaking my mind.

I weep for the future.

[SW03ES]

I weep for the future.

Perhaps its evolution at work...

[amcdonal86]

I weep for the future.

Perhaps its evolution at work...

[RDM]

How did I know someone (or two) would chime in with their ego driven, better than thou attitude? Not surprised at all. But suggesting I should actually die based on that opinion, you guys have hit a new low. Hinting that anyone should hopefully die and that their death is a good thing, one to learn from, is really sad. Neither of you know me at all. I merely expressed my opinion about airbags, which is my right, but I never expressed a complete lack of respect for another person, especially one I don't know. You both are sick, sad individuals. But enough about that, on to the actual topic.

I never said anywhere that a 45MPH impact would serve airbags to be useless. Nowhere in this thread has high speed impacts even been discussed. You both pulled that out of your !Removed!. Nice guess work. Low speed, light impacts can trigger airbags, doing extensive damage to the dashboard and costing a ton of money to replace those parts. I've bought cars with less than $600 in damage that were totaled due to the added cost of the airbags, so again in my opinion that's a waste. At high speeds, anything is possible but again as this thread has shown, no one was talking about that. In fact, as quoted : A few weeks ago our 1998 suffered an unfortunate frontal collision with the car ahead (heavy traffic, less than 10 mph, totally my fault as driver) When does 10MPH become 45MPH in your minds?

I'm going to leave this post up for a few days so that other forum members can view your comments, but then I will delete it and other posts I've made as it's clear an opinion of any kind is not allowed here on this site. Apologies to those who are offended by someone else's ideas.

[1990LS400]

I'm going to leave this post up for a few days so that other forum members can view your comments, but then I will delete it and other posts I've made as it's clear an opinion of any kind is not allowed here on this site. Apologies to those who are offended by someone else's ideas.

RDM, take a pill!

Sure your comments are welcomed -- strange as they may be -- but don't expect people to necessarily agree with them. Removing airbags from a car certainly seems odd to me. I suggest having anyone who rides in the front passenger seats of your cars sign a release acknowledging that they understand that the airbag has been removed.

[jcrome04]

I weep for the future.

Perhaps its evolution at work...

+1

Can you REALLY think that by removing air bags you're IMPROVING safety??

[RDM]

I weep for the future.

Perhaps its evolution at work...

+1

Can you REALLY think that by removing air bags you're IMPROVING safety??

I find it really sad I am even bothering with a reply, but here goes.

To begin with, all three of you are assuming that airbags only save lives. So what happened before airbags were implemented, did everyone in an accident die? No. Not that I know of anyway, if you have 'proof' of this, I'd love to see it.

Secondly, why do auto manufacturers have switchable airbags for the passenger side of the car in some vehicles? For kids and smaller riders. So you're saying that by turning the airbag off, they're immediately doomed to die as well? What about suicidal people, should they not ride in the passenger seat, as they plan on dying by turning the airbag off? Have airbags always been so life saving, and if so can you explain the number of fatalities that still have occurred in cars equipped with airbags? Some people still drive cars old enough to not have airbags, I guess they're all destined to die as well? So your blanket statement should be "anyone in an accident with an airbag will live, while those without one will die." If you're going to me pompous about it, by all means do it with dignity.

Moving on. I don't know what experience any of you three have with cars. I can only assume based on your answers that you're at best shadetree mechanics but more likely are just fact checkers who surf the web and read a lot of nonsense. Good for you. I am a 22 yr veteran of working solely on automobiles, ASE certified and trained. I also ran a business for over half a decade buying salvage cars and either rebuilding and reselling them or parting them out. I worked the auction yards weekly and have seen and inspected thousands of wrecked cars during that time, buying over a hundred of them for my own work. I have seen every kind of accident imaginable firsthand, not read about them from behind a computer screen. I can safely say I know a lot more about airbag and SRS systems that any of you three. In my own experiences in buying cars I also have been able to buy from friends, associates, other people closer to me who have had accidents and sold me their car for parts or such, and have seen their injuries and issues firsthand as well. Several of these people have sustained injuries from airbags, two even have permanent damage from the bag, so again it's not with a 'guess' that I say any of this about airbags. What's more, this thread was about a low speed impact from the very beginning, no one can argue that a car showing no visible signs of damage should be totaled due to $2500 airbags. If you go back and read the original post, you'll see that. Furthermore, I have only expressed my opinion, something you three still fail to realize, based on my experiences. If your wealth of knowledge about traffic accidents and restraint systems is far better than mine, by all means share it. Stating your opinion based on what you read and see in the news is a weak effort.

More importantly though, even after expressing just my opinion, and not resorting to any factual backup or trying to push that opinion on anyone, all three of you jokingly suggest that because of my opinion, I should die. So, where is the line here? It's obvious you're only expressing an opinion too, but should your opinion be malicious and disrespectful to another person? Just because you don't agree with them? Where does it end that because of you what you assume, you should force your opinion on someone and openly call them out as someone who deserves to die? How can THAT be right?

[jpourcy]

Just adding a professional opinion.

I have 33 years as a professional collision repair technician and I have seen more wrecks than all of you combined.

Air bags can be good or bad but for the most part I believe they are a good safety device.

I have personally worked on cars and truck hit so hard the frame looks like a pretzel and the air bags did not go off and I have seen the slightest hit and pop the bags.

My son-in law left my house and hit a dog and his airbags went off in his Honda Accord. No damage to the car except slight front bumper cover damage.

Most of the time they work as engineered but that is not always the case.

One time an insurance appraiser was doing an estimate on a car that the air bags did not go off and he put his head through the drivers window and grabbed the steering wheel and the airbag went off and hurt him very badly.

But all this is moot to me.

They allow motorcycles on the road which are very dangerous and some of you complain about someone taking airbags out of their car? Doesn't make sense.

The safety laws made by our government don't make sense. If you are in a car you have to wear a seatbelt or you can get a ticket but you can drive a motorcycle without a helmet and it's OK.

Doesn't make a bit of sense.

I say, to each his own.

If you want to install a roll cage in your car and wear a helmet, fire suit and neck brace I say go for it.

If you want to take the airbags out of your car, go for it. It's your car.

If you want to ride a motorcycle without a helmet, go for it. It's your skull, you can do with it whatever you want.

JP

[1990LS400]

They allow motorcycles on the road which are very dangerous and some of you complain about someone taking airbags out of their car? Doesn't make sense.

The safety laws made by our government don't make sense. If you are in a car you have to wear a seatbelt or you can get a ticket but you can drive a motorcycle without a helmet and it's OK.

I am not following your logic. Removing air bags doesn't effect just the person taking that action. It affects anyone driving or riding in the car -- perhaps not knowing that the airbags have been removed -- and can affect people in other cars when a driver without an airbag loses control after the initial impact. The main function of air bags is to get the driver and passengers through the first and usually most severe impact, and to allow the driver to be conscious enough to be able to control his car, if necessary, to avoid additional impacts.

I spent 31 years around the private passenger insurance industry before retiring including 10 years in motorcycle insurance so I may have some additional insight.

Knowing what I know, I would never for a moment consider riding a motorcycle -- a Darwinian method of "culling the herd". So what if our government allows motorcycles with or without a helmet. I or any family member of mine isn't going to be riding one. Besides, it is rare for a motorcycle impacting a car to kill or even severely injure the occupant of a car. So what if the motorcyclist dies -- he made the choice to ride.

[killerFatty]

Knowing what I know, I would never for a moment consider riding a motorcycle -- a Darwinian method of "culling the herd". So what if our government allows motorcycles with or without a helmet. I or any family member of mine isn't going to be riding one. Besides, it is rare for a motorcycle impacting a car to kill or even severely injure the occupant of a car. So what if the motorcyclist dies -- he made the choice to ride.

Talk about being closed minded and biased. I bet you have never rode a bike more than once or twice, if that. Expressing your opion is one thing, but being a jerk is another. Maybe thats not how you ment it, but when typing, as we all know, it's very hard to express tone. That is one thing we all need to be careful of. I'm not tring to be a jerk myself, but there is no need to be offensive and condescending. Thats all I have to say

[1990LS400]

Talk about being closed minded and biased. I bet you have never rode a bike more than once or twice, if that. Expressing your opion is one thing, but being a jerk is another. Maybe thats not how you ment it, but when typing, as we all know, it's very hard to express tone. That is one thing we all need to be careful of. I'm not tring to be a jerk myself, but there is no need to be offensive and condescending. Thats all I have to say

Killer, I owned a motorcycle when I was your age. If I had known what I know now I wouldn't have done that. I have known people who have been killed and permanently maimed in motorcycle accidents and a couple of people who have hit and killed motorcyclists with their cars. Oddly enough, the head salesman of our motorcycle insurance division hit and killed a motorcyclist on Antioch Road in north Kansas City a few years back.

I recently had lunch with a retired friend of mine who spent several months in the hospital after crashing his motorcycle a couple of years ago. His wife, who was riding on the back, was in the hospital over six months and, now in constant pain and held together by pieces of steel, will never be the same.

And on the airbag issue, I hope anyone who removes their airbags has one hell of a megamillion dollar personal umbrella insurance policy -- otherwise he ain't going to have any assets after an accident where someone is killed or injured in his airbag-less car.

A major rental car company is about to lose many millions of dollars just because it special ordered new cars without the normally standard side airbags and rented the cars without disclosing the fact. It never fails to amaze me what some people will do.

[jpourcy]

Hi 1990LS400,

You said,

The main function of air bags is to get the driver and passengers through the first and usually most severe impact, and to allow the driver to be conscious enough to be able to control his car, if necessary, to avoid additional impacts.

That's not going to happen. The air bags are designed to go off in a sudden stop impact and when they do go off, they go off with such a force you will not be holding on to the steering wheel nor will you be able to control your car. Have you ever tried to steer a car with a blown airbag? I have to do it all the time and I usually cut them out first.

But you missed my point.

If someone wants to drive a motorcycle without a helmet or drive in a car without airbags what is the difference?

If they do not care about their safety why does it matter?

It's like people that smoke, they do not care about their health but the government won't ban the sell of cigarettes.

Why should the government force people to have air bags in their car?

It doesn't make sense.

Scenario:

A man buys a new Mercedes with airbags everywhere in it and wears his seat belt all the time. When the weekend comes around he goes skydiving or mountain climbing or bungie jumping or cliff diving and then comes home and snorts cocaine and uses illegal drugs, smokes cigarettes and abuses alcohol.

His car is safe but his lifestyle isn't.

Why have a car with airbags if your lifestyle allows your life to be taken at any minute?

Like I said, it doesn't make sense.

Now if you are concerned about your life and staying alive as long as possible then airbags, seatbelts, proper diet, not using illegal drugs, not abusing alcohol, not having dangerous hobbies makes perfect sense.

If the government was really concerned about saving lives on our highways then they would not allow motorcycles on the road.

Even cars without airbags and seat belts are safer than motorcycles, but yet they allow motorcycles to be driven on public highways. Motorcycles are a death trap.

Like I said, it doesn't make sense.

I just wrecked my 1990 Toyota. It did not have air bags and I was perfectly comfortable with that. There are many older cars on the road now that do not have airbags and it is not illegal to drive them on the road.

Like I said, it doesn't make sense.

I got stopped one time by an officer and I got out of my 1977 Chevy van and I asked him what was the problem. He said I did not have my shoulder harness on and I told him it did not come with one. It wasn't illegal. Nor does my van have airbags. It is not illegal.

If someone doesn't want airbags in their car that is their business not mine. Driving a car without an airbag is not a crime. Even so, if I had a car with airbags (which I do) personally I would not take them out.

If someone wants to ride a motorcycle back and forth to work why should I care? If that same person wants to drive a car without airbags why should I care? If they want to go skydiving why should I care? I have two people that ride their motorcycles to church and they do not have airbags or seat belts. I do not think it is safe but I do not condemn them for doing so. Neither will I condemn someone that wants to drive around in a car without airbags nor will I recommend it either. It is strictly their business not mine.

JP

[1990LS400]

jpourcy, we actually agree on some points. Especially that it is ultimately a motorcyclists responsiblity for his exposing himself to danger.

Unfortunately, many motorcyclists who survive crashes with serious injuries are younger riders without health insurance -- guys in their late teens and 20's who haven't yet figured out that they aren't bulletproof. Who pays for their care and upkeep? We do through our taxes. We aren't a society that throws people in the trash bin just because they don't take care of themselves -- at least we aren't yet.

The more recent driver side airbags (from about 1997 onward) deploy with substantially less force than the earlier ones. They deploy and deflate so quickly that many drivers don't remember the deployment. The reason for the rapid deflation is precisely to allow the car to be steered after the initial impact. Do some "googling" and you can find the design criteria and videos showing the incredibly rapid deployment and deflation.

Pre-1998 airbags are another matter. They are usually larger and deploy with far greater force. They are the ones that have done the most damage including killing a number of children and a few small adults -- even killing children during extremely low speed minor crashes. That's a shame. NHTSA received warnings from European manufacturers, most notably Daimler-Benz, that the early U.S. specification airbags were dangerous to small adults and children but the warnings were ignored. Nearly 20 years later, the U.S. essentially adopted the European airbag standard -- quite similar to what the U.S. finally did with headlights after going its own way for decades.

I don't remember the first year the switches were available, but Lexus has long offered switches to turn off the front airbags.

Let's not compare skydiving and mountain climbing to riding motorcycles. As one who has jumped out of perfectly good helicopters and fixed wing aircraft and climbed ice/snow covered mountains with ice axes and ropes and ladders to bridge seemingly bottomless crevasses, I'll take those "safe" activities any day compared to motorcycles.

It will be interesting to see what happens with Enterprise Rent-a-Car and other car rental companies that bought rental cars without the standard side airbags. Some companies have already put Enterprise on "blacklists" and their employees no longer rent from them. Enterprise also sold some of its former rental cars to individuals without disclosing that the airbag option had been deleted -- more lawsuits.

[RDM]

And on the airbag issue, I hope anyone who removes their airbags has one hell of a megamillion dollar personal umbrella insurance policy -- otherwise he ain't going to have any assets after an accident where someone is killed or injured in his airbag-less car.

You have not dignified a response to anything else I asked, figured you wouldn't. Hiding behind that screen must make you feel invincible. This comment above though required a reply.

How is anyone going to be injured or killed in a 1992 LS400 that is not factory fitted with any other airbag besides the driver side? Are you now to say that even when a car isn't fitted with a passenger side airbag, the passenger is somehow protected by the driver side bag? Since it's my car and I'm the only one who drives it, why would I worry about a megamillion dollar personal umbrella insurance policy if occupants of my car aren't sitting in my seat with me? The only person in danger of anything is the driver, and like commented already I'm not going to steer the car away from anything once a bag has blown up in my face and knocked the wind out of me. If you honestly think an airbag is a gentle, soft tool that still gives the driver full control and visibility after going off, you really are talking out of your !Removed!. It's a chemical explosion that fills the car with debris for a few seconds at minimum, but in your World I guess your reaction time is far faster than anyone else on Earth and you could continue driving like nothing ever happened. You must be an amazing driver to be able to do that. Just how many airbag inflations have you been through? A dozen? More?

Your points are just sad attempts to cover your ignorance on this topic. Go out, drive your car head on into a brick wall, then come back with your 'expertise'. Until then you're only grasping at ideas you know nothing about.

[landar]

They deploy and deflate so quickly that many drivers don't remember the deployment. The reason for the rapid deflation is precisely to allow the car to be steered after the initial impact. Do some "googling" and you can find the design criteria and videos showing the incredibly rapid deployment and deflation.

Wow, a nice heated debate...like the charge coming from the air bags!

1990LS400 is a venerable poster here and has some good points as do others. Concerning deployment, I can vividly recall the 1993 Chrysler

air bag going off in my face. When I get into an adrenalin-producing situation, my senses heighten and "things" seem to be in slow motion (sounds strange but it happens to me). Anyway, I very clearly remember seeing the seam pattern/ribs of the airbag and it inflating and coming toward my face, though it never touched. After that, the smoke and debris from the explosion actually panicked me for a moment because I could not breath. That was the worst of it for me.

There are many things that contribute to auto safety: crumple zones, seat belts/shoulder harnesses, weight of the vehicle, steering wheel design, air bags, etc.

I am sure that air bags may help in certain situations. Is the cost justified? For the vast majority of situations, I remain doubtful. We could wear full-face helmets in our cars and that would probably save some lives. Where do you draw the line?

The insurance/legal issue brings up a good point. Our society is so 'sold' on the efficacy of airbags that w/o them a sin has been committed.

[killerFatty]

There are many things that contribute to auto safety: crumple zones, seat belts/shoulder harnesses, weight of the vehicle, steering wheel design, air bags, etc.

I am sure that air bags may help in certain situations. Is the cost justified? For the vast majority of situations, I remain doubtful. We could wear full-face helmets in our cars and that would probably save some lives. Where do you draw the line?

The insurance/legal issue brings up a good point. Our society is so 'sold' on the efficacy of airbags that w/o them a sin has been committed.

Very true. Nice points.

[Will B.]

I think 1990LS400's arguments are very valid, although he's not really clearly stating them.

Airbags are most effective when you are already wearing your safety belts. The IIHS indicates that airbags are only seriously dangerous to people who are less than 10 inches away from the steering wheel. They recommend an on/off switch only for people who sit this close to the wheel and, even then, only for cars made before 1998 when the new airbag safety requirements came into effect.

Statistically, the IIHS indicates that airbags reduce the death rate of drivers by 14% and of passengers by 11% overall, and 12% and 9% for belted drivers and passengers respectively.

REFERENCE - http://www.iihs.org/research/topics/airbags.html

I would say that I trust the IIHS, with extensive testing and thorough statistical data, more than any poster on a message board. Removing and not replacing airbags is putting your life at more risk.