Why Is Premium Unleaded Required For My 2009 Es 350?

[SHG818]

Premium unleaded is required for my 2009 ES 350, but the exact same V-6 engine in the Toyota Camry (let us never forget that our ES 350 is a really upscale really quiet Camry) only requires regular. I've been compromising on Mid-grade 89 but can't really see any reason to not try regular. I do not believe the gas station people will think less of me. Any thoughts?

[NicLX470]

For the Camry...

3.5-liter DOHC 24-valve dual VVT-i V6; 268 hp @ 6200 rpm and 248 lb.-ft. or torque at 4700 rpm

For the ES350...

3.5 liter DOHC 24-valve dual VVT-i V6; 272 hp @ 6200rpm and 254 lb-ft of torque at 4,700 rpm

I'm thinking a few very minor tuning adjustments require the premium fuel to squeeze a few more HP and torque out of the Lexus.

My IS350 and LX470 require premium and I would never use anything less. There are a lot of arguments of whether using regular gas will cause damage to the engine but no one really knows. But I paid too much money for these cars and love them so much not to treat them with the utmost respect.

[peteanello]

I agree, I'm not going to skimp on 2 or 3 bucks per fill-up to take a chance on voiding my warranty or later on causing engine damage.

A good friend of mine was torn between the ES and a Toyota and walked away from the Lexus because of the fuel requirement. When I told him you don't buy a $35 - $40 K car, and then complain about the gas cost difference you shouldn't but a Lexus.

He bought the ES.

Our RX is going on 90k (not looking forward to that service) and has very few problems (not one major problem).

The ES has 7.5K miles, and I'm a happy camper.

[footdoc]

I have only put premium in my 08' two times and fifteen thousand miles. Get 30+ miles /gal on the highway at 75 mph plus quiet, smooth, and powerful. Sorry regular will do just fine for me.

[NicLX470]

I have only put premium in my 08' two times and fifteen thousand miles. Get 30+ miles /gal on the highway at 75 mph plus quiet, smooth, and powerful. Sorry regular will do just fine for me.

Yes, to complete my statement about whether it will hurt the engine or not. Cars these days have enough computer technology to adjust to lower octane fuel so the engine will not knock (which is what damages the engine). But depending on all the different kinds of gasoline’s these days (some gas at these cheap stations I can bet the computer cannot adjust to), the computer can only adjust so much to try to avoid knocking and you might experience it anyway. And you will not even be able to tell because these cars are so quiet. So your car could be just fine with regular if the computer adjusts correctly. But then again, your car is fairly new and you might be doing some extra repairs later down the road. And I would bet money you are only getting the performance of the Camry's V6; which honestly is not that much different. Most likely your car will be just fine down the road with 250k+ miles with always having put in regular fuel. But if Camry performance and possible damage in the latter years of the cars life are really worth it to you just to save a few dollars in gas then that is your own prerogative.

[SW03ES]

The difference between regular and premium is about $.30/gal. If you fill up 15 gallons a week (1 tank, assuming you never run the other 2-3 out) thats $4.50 per fill up, or $234/year. Is it worth that to me to use the gas Lexus engineer's deemed as neccisary to get the optimum performance out of my $40,000 Lexus? Yes.

They wouldn't have made it a requirement if there weren't some reason...

[NicLX470]

The difference between regular and premium is about $.30/gal. If you fill up 15 gallons a week (1 tank, assuming you never run the other 2-3 out) thats $4.50 per fill up, or $234/year. Is it worth that to me to use the gas Lexus engineer's deemed as neccisary to get the optimum performance out of my $40,000 Lexus? Yes.

They wouldn't have made it a requirement if there weren't some reason...

Amen!!

[footdoc]

"The main advantage of premium-grade gas is that it allows automakers to advertise a few more horsepower by designing and tuning engines to take advantage of premium's anti-knock properties. But auto engineers generally agree that if you use regular in a premium engine, the power loss is so slight, most drivers can't tell.

"I go back and forth, and I'm hard-pressed to notice" whether there's regular or premium in the tank, says Jeff Jetter, principal chemist at Honda Research and Development Americas. He drives an Acura designed for premium.

Import brands, especially, use premium fuel to distinguish their upmarket models. Most Toyotas, for instance, are designed to run on regular or midgrade, while the automaker's Lexus luxury brand prefers premium. Same with Honda and its Acura luxury line.

"Generally, the more expensive the vehicle, the higher the expectation for performance and the more the customer is willing to pay for fuel," says Pete Haidos, head of product planning for Nissan in the USA.

Actually, the price debate is nearly worthless. At 20 cents more for premium, pumping 20 gallons of it instead of regular would cost $4 more. Annually, that's a difference of $171 for a vehicle that averages 14 miles per gallon — as some big sport-utility vehicles do — and is driven 12,000 miles a year.

Gasoline retailers and refiners like high-test because it's more profitable than regular-grade gas is. The retailer paid about 8 cents more for the premium you pay 20 cents more for — though that margin can swing wildly. Refiners make a few cents a gallon more on premium than on regular when they sell to wholesale distributors."

If you drive 300,00 miles it may make a small difference but I normally trade in at less than 100,000 miles. The fuel debate is nearly as active as the oil change interval, brand, type etc. It is all interesting to discuss.

[peteanello]

I have only put premium in my 08' two times and fifteen thousand miles. Get 30+ miles /gal on the highway at 75 mph plus quiet, smooth, and powerful. Sorry regular will do just fine for me.

The Lexus mechanics I have talked to say that the engine problems (from using regular fuel) don't start to develop until approximately 60k miles (after the warranty expires).

Good Luck

[footdoc]

The powertrain warranty is good until 70,000 miles.

[NicLX470]

The powertrain warranty is good until 70,000 miles.

Well if they test the fuel you have in your tank when you start having problems and it's regular they will be able to tell you've been using it for a long time by checking the engine computer codes for knocks and other problems with using regular gas. So when you experience a problem don't go fill up with premium and think they won't know. And they may not and do not have to honor the warranty. I've seen it happen!!

[SW03ES]

The powertrain warranty is good until 70,000 miles.

But would be voided if you have a repair that can be linked to using fuel below the specified octane level...whether its because of that or not.

[footdoc]

Has anyone ever heard of repairs due to fuel octane ? I think not.

[LEXIRX330]

It kills me that these gas/octane debates go on and on. $200 more per year for the gas that it is supposed to be used? Same discussion on the BMW, Mercedes, and even on Harley forums... put what you want in it it is your car.

I am going to use the octane that my cars are supposed to have.

[SW03ES]

Has anyone ever heard of repairs due to fuel octane ? I think not.

Definately. Burning a lower octane fuel in a engine designed to run higher octane fuel can result in carbon buildup, catalytic converter failure. Google it.

The question isn't really so much will it cause damage, but can they blame any failure that may happen on the use of below reccomended octane fuel and void my warranty? And the answer is yes.

Again...its up to each of you but to me even the chance of reducing the longevity of expensive vehicle components, reducing performance and fuel economy, or taking a chance that a warranty claim on a component could be denied is worth the extra $4 per tank for the fuel. Hell...I already spent $40,000, and if I were pinching pennies to where $4 per week hurt me...I shouldn't be in this class of a car.

What I find funny is people who refuse to use the fuel the manufacturer specifies but then use synthetic oil...

[Lexusfreak]

I can't speak for the 2007+ ES models.....but both this site below & my owners manual concur that all I need is Regular 87 unleaded fuel for the ES 330 (2004 - 2006 MY)...

http://www.canadiandriver.com/buyers-guide...lexus/es330.php

[SW03ES]

Yep in '04 that was stipulated, but not with 03 on down and I don't believe with 07+

[NicLX470]

Has anyone ever heard of repairs due to fuel octane ? I think not.

Definately. Burning a lower octane fuel in a engine designed to run higher octane fuel can result in carbon buildup, catalytic converter failure. Google it.

The question isn't really so much will it cause damage, but can they blame any failure that may happen on the use of below reccomended octane fuel and void my warranty? And the answer is yes.

Again...its up to each of you but to me even the chance of reducing the longevity of expensive vehicle components, reducing performance and fuel economy, or taking a chance that a warranty claim on a component could be denied is worth the extra $4 per tank for the fuel. Hell...I already spent $40,000, and if I were pinching pennies to where $4 per week hurt me...I shouldn't be in this class of a car.

What I find funny is people who refuse to use the fuel the manufacturer specifies but then use synthetic oil...

I think you hit the nail on the head. Don't buy a car that requires premium fuel if you are going to get upset about having to pay more for it. I hope the poor people who buy your cars second hand don't have to literally pay for the damage you may cause by using crappy gas.

[amf1932]

This is taken right out of the 2007 ES350 Owners Manual.

[LexPaul]

I have not even thought of using anything other than what Lexus deems as the best gasoline for my 2009 ES and that is 91+ octane. Why would I want to cheap out and use 87 when that is not the 'best' gasoline for my car? I do believe long term use of 87 octane will definitely degrade engine performance. Sure Lexus says you can use 87, your car can't run on water, but I believe they said that because they know that some people will buy a $40K+ car and refuse to use premium gas because regular is cheaper. It's a no win situation. The key word they used is 'optimum', so if you use 87, fine, but don't be surprised if your engine starts having problems down the 'road'. I think it's clear. Those who use 87 really have been warned, in a subtle way..so don't call your lawyer... :D

[mhawkin1]

On the other hand, I think if it would actually hurt the car Lexus would not have used that specific wording - knowing that many would take it to mean 87 oct was just fine.

I personally use 93, but this is really just a Camry V6.... we can try to make it different or better, but fact of the matter is, it really isn't. Use 87 oct and you will get 268 hp; bfd.

[SW03ES]

If it says that in the manual then I would be comfortable using 87...I would probably still use 93 though.

[marc_cage]

Hi,

Maybe I can help this topic that seems to go on and on. I know the manager of the Toyota plant in Georgetown, KY where they mainly build Camrys. The engine they use come from plants in either Lafayette, Ind., Troy, Mo. and Jackson, TN.

The engine shipped to them is ready to go into the Camrys. However the Lexus that uses the same engine is built in Japan and has one major difference that no amount of "brilliant" electronic can overcome with too much use of lower octane gas.

The engine for the Lexus ES 350 has a DIFFERENT camshaft! The timing is not all electronic. It is mostly engine hardware! The manual says you may use 87 if premium is not available. The car can use this, up to a point. Using 87 WILL cause pre-ignition in the engine. It may be hard to hear because of all the extra sound dampening on the Lexus.

The engineers building the car design it to handle 87, but only on a limited basis. If used regularly you WILL HAVE ENGINE damage and they will know and NOT honor warranty repairs on that. The electronic on the value timing adjustment cannot fully compensate for the different camshaft.

I suggest you follow your car's manufactures' advice and use the correct fuel.

[LexPaul]

Sounds reasonable to me..... ;)