My First Lexus Experience

[SW03ES]

I have to say that $800 isn't worth arguing over, but I can't get myself to go back through those doors. I have a very difficult time supporting a business that operates the way this dealership does.

I would tell them that. Tell them that after your experience it needs to be your price or you're going to do business with someone else.

It may very well not be the dealer...it may just be that particular salesman.

I don't blame you though.

[mr_raider]

When the Badger was in the office trying to "sell" me, I just waved my hand like a wand with my cell phone, hit "redial" and called Lexus of Tampa right in front of him. I told him he had until the time I got a price from them to write up the deal.

You sir, deserve a pair of these:

http://www.eballz.com/new/daballz.html

[smooth1]

When the Badger was in the office trying to "sell" me, I just waved my hand like a wand with my cell phone, hit "redial" and called Lexus of Tampa right in front of him. I told him he had until the time I got a price from them to write up the deal.

You sir, deserve a pair of these:

http://www.eballz.com/new/daballz.html

ya get whatcha give! LOL!!

[nc211]

First: Nic = I'd say you either got a better deal than you realize, or you lost some equity in your trade that you didn't realize you had, because a payment of $650 a month on a 5% interest rate for 72 months equates to an initial loan balance of $40,360, not $43,500. If your interest rate is higher than the 5.0% rate, the initial loan balance will be lower. So, you got something somewhere, or lost something somewhere. Don't know what the balance was on your Z though that they gave you on trade value. $43,500 on a 5.0% for 72 months should be $700/month.

Second: Bartkat = I know EXACTLY what you're saying about dealing with dealerships outside of the hussle and bussle of a city, first hand, in YOUR town! In 2001 I bought a new Maxima SE while I was living in B'ham. I went to Clown (Crown) first, and got the haggle from a dude wearing a wig and makeup, I kid you not. I was so displeased with the process, that I went onto nissan.com to locate other dealers in the area, and found a gold mind 50 miles south of town in Sylacauga, called Reilly Nissan. Did the deal over the phone with a guy "Bill" who insisted I call him "Fish Fry". It was easy, it was what I wanted, and aside from the fact that every employee there with a pair between his legs was circling my then girlfriend when we went to pick it up, it was great!

Third: Jim = I know the Badger dealership you're referreing to in North Carolina (just moved from Raleigh to Chicago this past February). Great ad...but not necessarily a true portrait of the type of service you'll receive from them. I bought my 95' LS400 from them, over the internet, and that went fine. But, three years later when I was in the market to replace my wife's 02' Honda Civic (2007)...well, we met a serious Badger, and he's still there. It's all in the approach. To a certain degree, selling cars is just that, selling cars, no matter if it's a Benz, or a Buick. Every dealer has more than their fair share of badgers. Even back in the day when Saturn first hit the market and based their approach on "it is what it is, no badgering", they would still badger you on your trade-in, and little nickle and dime fees out the tailpipe. My approach is to simply put the cash on the table and say "it's your job to take this money from me". Put the smell of money under their noses, and it's a whole different story "assuming you're making a decent and fair offer - they've got to make a living too". I finance my cars through USAA Bank - the best experience I've ever had with the process. They cut you a signed blank check, only you and they know what's the limit of that check. I write down how much I'm willing to fill in on the check on a sticky note, attach it to the front of the check, and set it on the dude's desk. I say "it's yours, if you want it, not a penny more". It's worked perfectly for the past three cars I've bought (new 07 Mazda 3GT, my 4runner, and my GS430).

If you've got your heart set on that specific car, then what I would honestly do is contact the GM of that dealership and tell him/her the experience you've had there, and what you're willing to pay. All of this hassle the sales team has now put you through, can actually play to your benefit now, if placed into the right hands. The GM is the one who's held accountable for the volume of sales. You're not making an off-base offer here, but you're being held up by lower level employees. I'd tell Ana something to the effect of: "given the amount of time i've already invested into this process with the dealership, and given the results of these efforts, i would prefer to have communications between the two of us verified by the general manager from this point forward. no more games, i need answers that will be accountable if i am to take time out of my busy schedule to yet again make the trip down to the dealership to conclude this transaction."

[NicLX470]

First: Nic = I'd say you either got a better deal than you realize, or you lost some equity in your trade that you didn't realize you had, because a payment of $650 a month on a 5% interest rate for 72 months equates to an initial loan balance of $40,360, not $43,500. If your interest rate is higher than the 5.0% rate, the initial loan balance will be lower. So, you got something somewhere, or lost something somewhere. Don't know what the balance was on your Z though that they gave you on trade value. $43,500 on a 5.0% for 72 months should be $700/month.

I owed more on the 350Z than it was worth on "trade". (Owed 22k, they said it was worth 16k on trade) So they gave me a lot more for it. Or they were so glad I walked right in and was ready to buy with no hassling they decided to give me the best deal of the month. But they buckled gave me what I owed. I kept it in like new condition. Even still smelled new…no dings or scratches. Washed it as much as I do my IS350. Which is a lot if you have read some of my other posts. Some might think I'm crazy but if there is a car that I want all I care about is if I can afford the monthly note.

[SW03ES]

Some might think I'm crazy but if there is a car that I want all I care about is if I can afford the monthly note.

No offense...but thats why you were upside down on the 350Z probably.

Affording the note is fine, but smart business decisions are important. Wouldn't you like it if that monthly note was even MORE affordable?

I just hate to see people waste their hard earned money.

[smooth1]

Some might think I'm crazy but if there is a car that I want all I care about is if I can afford the monthly note.

No offense...but thats why you were upside down on the 350Z probably.

Affording the note is fine, but smart business decisions are important. Wouldn't you like it if that monthly note was even MORE affordable?

I just hate to see people waste their hard earned money.

Ahh yes, the " Payment Buyer ". Most never even really pay attention to that small line at the bottom of that really long contract called " TOTAL". Just so long as the monthly payment is affordable. Never realizing that this way of buying is put into place on purpose to keep them in a postion of negotiating from weakness. The upside down trade-in scam that's lasted for what, 30 years now? Costs you thousands. I like to think of it like this, if NICLX buys his next car like the Lexus and the one before it, I would get my fourth car on his budget free!!!!!

[NicLX470]

Some might think I'm crazy but if there is a car that I want all I care about is if I can afford the monthly note.

No offense...but thats why you were upside down on the 350Z probably.

Affording the note is fine, but smart business decisions are important. Wouldn't you like it if that monthly note was even MORE affordable?

I just hate to see people waste their hard earned money.

Ahh yes, the " Payment Buyer ". Most never even really pay attention to that small line at the bottom of that really long contract called " TOTAL". Just so long as the monthly payment is affordable. Never realizing that this way of buying is put into place on purpose to keep them in a postion of negotiating from weakness. The upside down trade-in scam that's lasted for what, 30 years now? Costs you thousands. I like to think of it like this, if NICLX buys his next car like the Lexus and the one before it, I would get my fourth car on his budget free!!!!!

Whoa calm down guys.

I made sure the "bottom of that really long contract called total" was cool too. $650 per month for 6 years = 48,600. Only 5k in interest when the sticker on the car was 43k. I hardly got scammed. And I was not "upside down" on my Z. Only seemed that way because you both know trade in values are thousands less than the car is really worth. I did my research. I knew how much the Z was worth for trade, private party, and retail. And I made sure they knew it. I told them if they gave me 16k for it they will still sell it for 24k so I wasn't going to take anything less than the 22k that I owed. But they still try and tell you that KBB sites and others like it are not accurate and they have to get the car "ready to sell" and it costs "money". I said, "you need to go look at it. It's in showroom condition. Put a price tag on it and you're done." So I tell them I will go to another dealer and they cave in gave me what I owed because it honestly WAS worth what I owed. I might not try to negotiate a cars sticker but I will get hot about anyone trying to pull the wool over my eyes for my trade. At my first service it was sitting on the lot for 24k. Imagine that.

[SW03ES]

Well...if you owe more for the car than someone gives you for it...you're upside down. Thats just the definition of being upside down.

Now all of a sudden I'm hearing about haggling and negotiation from you...when you said before you don't care about haggling and negotiation...which is which?

You're correct that you didn't overpay on the interest, you just overpaid on the car. The MSRP was $43k and you probably could have bought that car for $39-40k. That $4,000 difference would have been enough in your 350Z scenario to keep you from being upside down. Thats the difference.

Nobody needs to calm down, its your money I'm more trying to educate others that your way of buying cars is the absolute wrong way, negotiating from the payment. You will ALWAYS overpay for the car, and I work too hard for my living to overpay for things. I don't go crazy trying to wring every dollar out of them, but I want a fair market value.

My cousin buys cars like you do and it drives me nuts, he's always upside down and having to roll the previous unsatisfied loan into the new loan. Its a cycle that never ends...

[bartkat]

If one considers a trade wholesale vs wholesale or retail vs retail, one will usually come out ok. Getting heavy on the new side or light on the trade in, one is usually getting screwed. The bottom line when trading in is the difference number, pure and simple.

[SW03ES]

Which is why I usually seperate my trade and my purchase.

[bartkat]

Which is why I usually seperate my trade and my purchase.

Best friends dad was a new car dealer and another friend owned a large wholesale car auction. I could always get actual local selling prices weekly across that auction.

And yes, sit down and negotiate your trade in value and then buy the new car.

[SW03ES]

I even go one step further and get a trade offer from Carmax or another local dealer that will buy cars without selling one first...

[bartkat]

Gotta do all you can.

[nc211]

Nic, wait a minute man, something's wrong with your numbers here amigo. Here are the scenarios and the error in your numbers.

1) Your monthly payment, interest rate, and term, don't $0 out at the end on a 5% interest rate. To fully amortize a $43,500 loan in 72 months on a $650 montly payment would require an interest rate of 2.44%. At 5%, the final payment would have to be about $4,235 to retire the loan. You don't have a balloon payment at the end do you? You might want to check your paperwork on that one, especially since you went into this on a "payment" basis.

2) Your monthly payment of $650 for 72 months at 5% would retire a loan amount of $40,360.

3) Your montly payment of $650 on $43,500 at 5% would require a term of 79 months, not 72.

Since they gave you nothing beyond the existing loan balance on your trade-in, that missing $3,140 between what you paid for the car, and what you're payments are assigned to pay for the car, isn't in the Z. Either you put a down payment on the car, they gave you a "deal" without you asking for one "uh, you think they really would do that?", you've got a balloon payment at the end of the loan, they screwed up, or there's a trick to financing a Lexus that I don't understand.

But eitherway, something is wrong with your numbers. I'd check your paperwork again! If you do have a balloon payment, well, $3,140 on a new car at the beginning of a loan term would be a lot easier to satisfy than a 5% accrued $4,235 payment on a 6 year old car.

[NicLX470]

Nic, wait a minute man, something's wrong with your numbers here amigo. Here are the scenarios and the error in your numbers.

1) Your monthly payment, interest rate, and term, don't $0 out at the end on a 5% interest rate. To fully amortize a $43,500 loan in 72 months on a $650 montly payment would require an interest rate of 2.44%. At 5%, the final payment would have to be about $4,235 to retire the loan. You don't have a balloon payment at the end do you? You might want to check your paperwork on that one, especially since you went into this on a "payment" basis.

2) Your monthly payment of $650 for 72 months at 5% would retire a loan amount of $40,360.

3) Your montly payment of $650 on $43,500 at 5% would require a term of 79 months, not 72.

Since they gave you nothing beyond the existing loan balance on your trade-in, that missing $3,140 between what you paid for the car, and what you're payments are assigned to pay for the car, isn't in the Z. Either you put a down payment on the car, they gave you a "deal" without you asking for one "uh, you think they really would do that?", you've got a balloon payment at the end of the loan, they screwed up, or there's a trick to financing a Lexus that I don't understand.

But eitherway, something is wrong with your numbers. I'd check your paperwork again! If you do have a balloon payment, well, $3,140 on a new car at the beginning of a loan term would be a lot easier to satisfy than a 5% accrued $4,235 payment on a 6 year old car.

No balloon payment. I didn't put a cash down payment but I have a Lexus Visa card and had "points" towards a new car. I advise anyone who uses credit cards to get one. the more you spend, the more points you get which means money off of a new car.

[smooth1]

Some might think I'm crazy but if there is a car that I want all I care about is if I can afford the monthly note.

No offense...but thats why you were upside down on the 350Z probably.

Affording the note is fine, but smart business decisions are important. Wouldn't you like it if that monthly note was even MORE affordable?

I just hate to see people waste their hard earned money.

Ahh yes, the " Payment Buyer ". Most never even really pay attention to that small line at the bottom of that really long contract called " TOTAL". Just so long as the monthly payment is affordable. Never realizing that this way of buying is put into place on purpose to keep them in a postion of negotiating from weakness. The upside down trade-in scam that's lasted for what, 30 years now? Costs you thousands. I like to think of it like this, if NICLX buys his next car like the Lexus and the one before it, I would get my fourth car on his budget free!!!!!

Whoa calm down guys.

I made sure the "bottom of that really long contract called total" was cool too. $650 per month for 6 years = 48,600. Only 5k in interest when the sticker on the car was 43k. I hardly got scammed. And I was not "upside down" on my Z. Only seemed that way because you both know trade in values are thousands less than the car is really worth. I did my research. I knew how much the Z was worth for trade, private party, and retail. And I made sure they knew it. I told them if they gave me 16k for it they will still sell it for 24k so I wasn't going to take anything less than the 22k that I owed. But they still try and tell you that KBB sites and others like it are not accurate and they have to get the car "ready to sell" and it costs "money". I said, "you need to go look at it. It's in showroom condition. Put a price tag on it and you're done." So I tell them I will go to another dealer and they cave in gave me what I owed because it honestly WAS worth what I owed. I might not try to negotiate a cars sticker but I will get hot about anyone trying to pull the wool over my eyes for my trade. At my first service it was sitting on the lot for 24k. Imagine that.

And $650 x 72 months is $46,800 , not $48,600.00 LOL!!!

My dad sold used cars from the shop all the time. Because car buying and selling is what it is, the business philosophy has to be, dealer asks for as much as he can for the car, and the buyer tries to get it for as low as he can. If they can meet somewhere in the middle and both be happy, then the deal is made. If the buyer doesn't want to put any effort into his own purchase, then it will cost the buyer more money. They aren't in the business of giving good deals, they are in business to make money. If you want a good deal, you have to work for it. I've firmly believed in this as a good philosophy so long as it's done tactfully, curtiuosly, and with respect. I think that the OP was disrespected and the "Badger" was not tactful at all. I would have left without saying good-bye with respect to that scenario.

NicLX, I wasn't excited or upset and I hope you didn't take my post as ridicule. I was just stating the facts of a payment buyer. SW and Bartkat are both exactly right though. Just doing your research, on both your car, the car you want to buy and a good strong consideration of your financial budget, and situation first could save alot of people alot of money. And when this person walks into a dealership, I think they need to be handled directly as in the case of the OP here. You know when your talking to someone who knows what they are talking about. If we sold new cars and Cpt. Jim walked into my dealership, the longest part of our conversation would have been printing and signing the paperwork. Making it painless for him makes it painless for us. Think about the time they have invested in emails, talks and phone calls already. Now they get nothing for that whereas if they would have just done the deal, they would have saved all those efforts for the next tough sell. Moved a unit off the lot and had a very happy customer coming in for service on a regular basis. Tell me who really won by holding out for a couple hundred bucks? Sometimes they just don't see the forest thru the trees!

And again to agree with SW, I'm not saying to squeeze, rattle and shake every penny out of everything around you either, although some people live to that extreme also, I place a value on my time. Spending 2 or 3 hours doing research to save a few thousand dollars to me seems worth it to me. Driving all over town going to different dealerships and having knockdown drag outs with the salesmanagers to get another couple hundred bucks does not.

[NicLX470]

Some might think I'm crazy but if there is a car that I want all I care about is if I can afford the monthly note.

No offense...but thats why you were upside down on the 350Z probably.

Affording the note is fine, but smart business decisions are important. Wouldn't you like it if that monthly note was even MORE affordable?

I just hate to see people waste their hard earned money.

Ahh yes, the " Payment Buyer ". Most never even really pay attention to that small line at the bottom of that really long contract called " TOTAL". Just so long as the monthly payment is affordable. Never realizing that this way of buying is put into place on purpose to keep them in a postion of negotiating from weakness. The upside down trade-in scam that's lasted for what, 30 years now? Costs you thousands. I like to think of it like this, if NICLX buys his next car like the Lexus and the one before it, I would get my fourth car on his budget free!!!!!

Whoa calm down guys.

I made sure the "bottom of that really long contract called total" was cool too. $650 per month for 6 years = 48,600. Only 5k in interest when the sticker on the car was 43k. I hardly got scammed. And I was not "upside down" on my Z. Only seemed that way because you both know trade in values are thousands less than the car is really worth. I did my research. I knew how much the Z was worth for trade, private party, and retail. And I made sure they knew it. I told them if they gave me 16k for it they will still sell it for 24k so I wasn't going to take anything less than the 22k that I owed. But they still try and tell you that KBB sites and others like it are not accurate and they have to get the car "ready to sell" and it costs "money". I said, "you need to go look at it. It's in showroom condition. Put a price tag on it and you're done." So I tell them I will go to another dealer and they cave in gave me what I owed because it honestly WAS worth what I owed. I might not try to negotiate a cars sticker but I will get hot about anyone trying to pull the wool over my eyes for my trade. At my first service it was sitting on the lot for 24k. Imagine that.

And $650 x 72 months is $46,800 , not $48,600.00 LOL!!!

My dad sold used cars from the shop all the time. Because car buying and selling is what it is, the business philosophy has to be, dealer asks for as much as he can for the car, and the buyer tries to get it for as low as he can. If they can meet somewhere in the middle and both be happy, then the deal is made. If the buyer doesn't want to put any effort into his own purchase, then it will cost the buyer more money. They aren't in the business of giving good deals, they are in business to make money. If you want a good deal, you have to work for it. I've firmly believed in this as a good philosophy so long as it's done tactfully, curtiuosly, and with respect. I think that the OP was disrespected and the "Badger" was not tactful at all. I would have left without saying good-bye with respect to that scenario.

NicLX, I wasn't excited or upset and I hope you didn't take my post as ridicule. I was just stating the facts of a payment buyer. SW and Bartkat are both exactly right though. Just doing your research, on both your car, the car you want to buy and a good strong consideration of your financial budget, and situation first could save alot of people alot of money. And when this person walks into a dealership, I think they need to be handled directly as in the case of the OP here. You know when your talking to someone who knows what they are talking about. If we sold new cars and Cpt. Jim walked into my dealership, the longest part of our conversation would have been printing and signing the paperwork. Making it painless for him makes it painless for us. Think about the time they have invested in emails, talks and phone calls already. Now they get nothing for that whereas if they would have just done the deal, they would have saved all those efforts for the next tough sell. Moved a unit off the lot and had a very happy customer coming in for service on a regular basis. Tell me who really won by holding out for a couple hundred bucks? Sometimes they just don't see the forest thru the trees!

And again to agree with SW, I'm not saying to squeeze, rattle and shake every penny out of everything around you either, although some people live to that extreme also, I place a value on my time. Spending 2 or 3 hours doing research to save a few thousand dollars to me seems worth it to me. Driving all over town going to different dealerships and having knockdown drag outs with the salesmanagers to get another couple hundred bucks does not.

Ha yeah 46k is right. I'm dyslexic sometimes typing. Yeah I understand what you guys are saying. Car dealers need to make money too so it's hard to blame em sometimes.

[nc211]

No balloon payment. I didn't put a cash down payment but I have a Lexus Visa card and had "points" towards a new car. I advise anyone who uses credit cards to get one. the more you spend, the more points you get which means money off of a new car.

There it is....your points....